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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Without being accused of being a drama monkey, can we please continue discussing the TOS?

Discussion in 'Communications' started by deltron_zero, Feb 23, 2003.

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  1. Porkins in a Speedo

    Porkins in a Speedo Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 6, 1999
    and how do define an "unnecesary" or "irrelevant" post?

    "spam" is an imaginary concept. and it is defined with extreme vagueness.
     
  2. DarthSapient

    DarthSapient Jedi Youngling star 10

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2001
    I said all I had to say for the moment because Darth Work pulled me away for the past two hours. This thread is productive and being discussed responsibly. I still believe we'll have a tough time coming up again with a solid definition or guide, but the one thing I will push is an effort to be more specific and throrough when locking threads. I apologize for locking the previous Comms thread and I'd like you to see this as a welcoming of working together to see if we can't come up with something we can all agree on.
     
  3. deltron_zero

    deltron_zero Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 1, 2002
    Thanks Sape. I do appreciate you leaving this thread open, and I apologize for my somewhat sarcastic tone.

    The suggestion of being more thorough in explaining lockings is a good one, but I think Vert's suggestion of only editing individual posts rather than locking entire threads whenever possible is even better.

    In any case, I think both of those suggestions should be followed. If a thread contains 20 posts that "cross the line" or the entire idea behind the thread is inappropriate then of course they should be locked. But if moderators are locking threads because of three or four posts, that's just lazy.
     
  4. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    deltron...
    "In any case, I think both of those suggestions should be followed. If a thread contains 20 posts that "cross the line" or the entire idea behind the thread is inappropriate then of course they should be locked. But if moderators are locking threads because of three or four posts, that's just lazy."

    Again, I'd say it's not quite as straight-forward as "n posts." I think I agree with you 100% in spirit.

    But, say there's a 4,000-post thread with 20 posts that crossed the line. I'd hardly think the thread deserved to be locked because of 20 posts.

    Likewise, if there's a thread with 4 posts, and all four crossed the line, I'd say the thread needs to go. And I'd disagree that it would be because of laziness on the part of the mod.

    Post and thread edits and removals should boil down to what is best for the community.
     
  5. deltron_zero

    deltron_zero Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 1, 2002
    Right, I totally agree with you. I just made my example too vague. Also, if there is a thread with over 100 posts and 20 or 30 do cross the line (as was the case with the "Discovering the Boundaries of the TOS" thread), sure maybe the thread should be locked, but that also speaks volumes to the fact that we do need more moderators. Someone should have been there long before it got to that point to steer the thread on an appropriate course, or to deem the entire thread inappropriate and explain why.
     
  6. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    [face_blush] Sorry, my bad.
     
  7. GriffZ

    GriffZ Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 27, 2001

    Someone should have been there long before it got to that point to steer the thread on an appropriate course, or to deem the entire thread inappropriate and explain why.

    In fairness of the mods, it can be hard to effectively monitor all the threads in a high-traffic forum (like YJCC or AOTC).

     
  8. YodaJeff

    YodaJeff Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 18, 2001
    "In fairness of the mods, it can be hard to effectively monitor all the threads in a high-traffic forum (like YJCC or AOTC)."

    I manage to monitor all the threads in the AOTC forum. Of course, the AOTC forum is slower now than when you were a mod there, but I manage to keep (to quote Obi-Wan) "on top of things".

    When people send me a PM, I almost always reply. Usually, I reply within a couple minutes of reading the PM.

    As for the word "spam", I try to use it as little as possible, just like "drama". If something was posted with no meaning (in a forum other than the JCC), rather than saying "Spam", I'd probably say "I don't see a point to this thread. If you would like to discuss this more, feel free to send me a PM." Even then, it'd only be in the rare case of something extreme, like a thread called "Count Dooku", with a body of "My dog smells", posted in the AOTC forum. If a similar thread was posted in the JCC, I'd probably keep an eye on it, to see where the membership decides to take it, before automatically locking it..
     
  9. Genghis12

    Genghis12 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 1999
    People don't need to be ashamed of using "spam" and "drama" in their proper context. Making a bigger deal of these terms than they're worth gives them power and meaning beyond what they really are by people who would twist things to their own ends.

    Spam is spam. Drama is drama. Trolling is trolling. Flaming is flaming.

    No high-level concepts of board management or anything.

    We're not rewriting or creating new communication protocols for anonymous internet message boards here.
     
  10. YodaJeff

    YodaJeff Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 18, 2001
    I would argue that it doesn't hurt anything to be more specific, where possible. Obviously, if someone is flaming, you can't replace their comments with "Banned for flaming when you called UserX a stupid moron".
     
  11. farraday

    farraday Jedi Knight star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    I think most people understand when something is blatently across the line, however in issues of grey area moderating like all three of these were labelled, more explination is incredibly important.
     
  12. GriffZ

    GriffZ Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 27, 2001

    I manage to monitor all the threads in the AOTC forum. Of course, the AOTC forum is slower now than when you were a mod there, but I manage to keep (to quote Obi-Wan) "on top of things".
    What are you implying...? :p

    Anyway, a good rule of thumb is to at least always check every high-traffic thread, or a thread that seems to have more posts than it should. (Eg. when you see the "What colour was Plo Koon's lightsaber?" has 400 replies, you should know something is up.)

    I don't think it should be expected of every mod to read every thread in every forum, but they certainly should keep on top of things.

    When people send me a PM, I almost always reply. Usually, I reply within a couple minutes of reading the PM.
    There's no excuse for a mod to not answer their PMs. Once or twice is perhaps forgiveable, but more than that isn't. If they can't be bothered to communicate with users who are trying to get in touch with them, then they shouldn't be mods.

    BTW, that's a good take on "spam."

     
  13. Bria

    Bria Manager Emeritus, -MNFF Council star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 15, 1999
    So basically, people who PMed you saying it should be locked merely felt it should be locked according to their interpretation of the TOS and not because they were in anyway offended?

    No, people were offended, and thought the thread had gone too far, and that is why they pmed me and other mods.

    I believe that's because no JCC mods were on at the time.

    I was on during part of it. I wasn' t in the JCC. I was reading and replying to a thread in the AC.

    How does that make it wrong? Just because some people don't get it doesn't mean it should be locked.

    In some of them (i.e. the threads that I closed) it was because threads and posts violated the first part of the TOS. An entire thread on insults, even if meant as a joke, is going too far.

    And I believe the purpose of this thread is to find out exactly how much sexual innuendo and profanity is allowed. If the answer is none, every single mod that has ever modded has failed to an incredible degree.

    I'm not sure this can ever be cast on stone what is ok and isn't. Minor swear words (ass, hell, etc) are allowed, but others are not. If we make a list of what is and isn't ok, I'd bet before long there'd be a situation that wasn't covered by what was decided.

    This is why I only ask you to discuss it with us or the AC, or at least your fellow mods before you make these decisions.

    I have done this. I have asked for opinions before I closed threads in the past when I have been unsure. Other times, such as the threads that have been brought up, when I got repeated questions concerning the locks I have gathered opinions on decisions I've made and I've found agreement from the MS that I made the right move.

    I really hope you don't think I'm "making a big deal out of nothing".

    I don't think that. I understand you like the JC and want to know what is and isn't ok. But like I said, I don't know how we can explictily define what is and isn't allowed, and have it apply to every situation.

    I also think that always going to others (AC, other MS members, etc) isn't always possible. If we always had to wait until we got imput from another person, problems would go on longer than they should simply because no response had yet been given.

    bria, the average tree sloth could figure out that that thread was a joke, simply by the initial post alone. come on now. no one is being disrespected when you are joking around with them, and you know it. and i have a hard time believeing that there were "many complaints."

    Jokes, just like threads, can go too far. in reading through the thread, felt the threads I closed last week had gone too far.

    again, i find that hard to believe. so how come no one said anything in comms or started a comms thread on it?

    Not everyone who visits the JC visits the Commuinications forum. Not everyone wants to. They should -and do- PM mods when they feel it necessary and many who saw that thread found it insulting and did contact admins on it.

    i honestly don't know of any instances, off hand, where a moderator didn't get defensive about something that they've been questioned on. and i honestly can't think of any instances, off hand, where a mod admitted to making a mistake and then corrected that mistake. ...

    When users have asked me about moderation I have done, I've given them a thorough, rational explanation. The user might not like it, but that doesn't mean it was defensive. Communication is a two way street and I think users should contact a mod if and when they disagree with a decision.

    Also, I don't recall the exact instance, as it has been a few months, but a thread I had locked was reopened after pms back and forth with the user. I'm not afraid to admit I've made a mistake when I feel I have, but in the cases presented, I don't.

    Just because someone doesn't get a joke doesn't mean it will get locked. But unless you were to know that it was a joke, it looks like insulting other people at that level is totally allowed. The question
     
  14. Porkins in a Speedo

    Porkins in a Speedo Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 6, 1999
    As for the word "spam", I try to use it as little as possible, just like "drama". If something was posted with no meaning (in a forum other than the JCC), rather than saying "Spam", I'd probably say "I don't see a point to this thread. If you would like to discuss this more, feel free to send me a PM." Even then, it'd only be in the rare case of something extreme, like a thread called "Count Dooku", with a body of "My dog smells", posted in the AOTC forum. If a similar thread was posted in the JCC, I'd probably keep an eye on it, to see where the membership decides to take it, before automatically locking it..

    give that man a cookie. my espn must be working, because he seems to be on the same wavelength of what i've been thinking for a while now. and that is, people need to move away from the "spam" concept and judge things for what they really are. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "SPAM." it's a completely fictitious boogeyman like thing, and a way of classifying a plethora of things- some of which are simple to grasp and easy to define, and some of which are so vague that you half to wonder about it's credibility. people often use the words "unnecessary" and "irrelevant" as a way of describing this "spam" nonsense in some cases. just call it what you think it is, don't call it some imaginary word/concept like "spam". if you think it's irrelevant or unnecessary then just say that, and explain why for that case, instead of calling it "spam." people need to label things as they actually are, not as some imaginary concept. spam is unsolicited advertising, not this cluster**** of ambiguity that no one can consistently define. you can't define it because it doesn't exist. it's a lumping together of things that are definable and things that you just make up or mold to fit some other concept as you go along. this "spam" nonsense is a perfect example of subjectivity spun out of control.

    but, i think the "spam" issue should be dealt with in a seperate thread one of these days... *light bulb*
     
  15. Porkins in a Speedo

    Porkins in a Speedo Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 6, 1999
    No, people were offended, and thought the thread had gone too far, and that is why they pmed me and other mods.

    and maybe they didn't understand what was going on, which was- fun, teasing, joking, friendly ribbing, etc. if you would have PMed them back and explained it to them (since you said you knew the thread was innocent) then they probably wouldn't have had a problem. and i think you know that.

    An entire thread on insults, even if meant as a joke, is going too far.

    no it's not. and besides, then how come you only locked one? there's more than one out there. in fact there was a new one started today that is pretty much exactly the same damn thing as my thread that you locked.

    Jokes, just like threads, can go too far. in reading through the thread, felt the threads I closed last week had gone too far.

    how does a thread that is consistent in tone, from start to finish, end up going to far?

    Not everyone who visits the JC visits the Commuinications forum. Not everyone wants to. They should -and do- PM mods when they feel it necessary and many who saw that thread found it insulting and did contact admins on it.

    you didn't take into account the entire thought, bria. i was talking about it becoming a real problem and concern to the membership overall. whenever a "problem" isn't trivial, and a concern of many, it comes up in comms either as a thread or a discussion within another thread.

    and once again, if you say you know that a thread is harmless, then why don't you just explain to the person complaining that it's all in good fun, harmless, innocent, etc and that they've just misunderstood??? if you actually did that i bet you'd find that 9 out of 10 times the person wouldn't have a problem once you gave them a clue. hell, i myself PMed 2 people in my thread, who seemed clueless, and told them it was all in good fun, and they were cool with it after that. why couldn't you have done that with the people who complained to you? i'm sure the result would have been the same- once they realized, as the average reasonable JCer would, i'm sure they wouldn't have had a problem.

     
  16. gundark

    gundark Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 1999
    [unrelated post, but lots of mods around]

    plz unban Sarcasm. thx.

    [/unrelated post, but lots of mods around]



     
  17. Melyanna

    Melyanna Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 2001
    EDIT: Never mind.
     
  18. Bria

    Bria Manager Emeritus, -MNFF Council star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 15, 1999
    and maybe they didn't understand what was going on, which was- fun, teasing, joking, friendly ribbing, etc. if you would have PMed them back and explained it to them (since you said you knew the thread was innocent) then they probably wouldn't have had a problem. and i think you know that.

    Again, Kadue said it perfectly:

    Just because someone doesn't get a joke doesn't mean it will get locked. But unless you were to know that it was a joke, it looks like insulting other people at that level is totally allowed. The question here is for a clearer definition of the rules, so would the one on behaviour towards each other read "You have to act civilly towards other users on these forums, unless they are your friends"?

    You do have to agree that this would be a rather poor rule. That leaves the two options of either a blanket level of civility towards other users, or allowing everyone to go to this higher insult point if they wish. You can see which one we lean towards.

    This isn't to say that a jib every now and then in a thread here and there is going to be dealt harshly with, but definitely a whole thread, or turning a thread into a place of posts like this one after another will garner attention.


    Letting threads like that remain open makes it appear that insulting (as someone reading just a few posts w/o knowledge of anybody involved might) was ok here, and it isn't. I agree with that statement by Kadue and said and occasional friendly insult was fine and it is. But threads devoted to such are not.

    no it's not. and besides, then how come you only locked one? there's more than one out there. in fact there was a new one started today that is pretty much exactly the same damn thing as my thread that you locked.

    Yes, it is going too far. That is the call I made and is shared by other members of the moderating staff. When we are asked to come on and moderate on the boards, we are asked to make judgement calls. That is what I did. I'd really love to come to a concenus on this, but as we obviously don't see eye to eye on this, and I don't think it will happen. We just keep going around in circles.

    As for the thread you mentioned, it's because I haven't seen it. I worked this morning into the afternoon. I came on to the JC, posted in the MS, did an edit in Community I was PMed about, and then I had to leave for school. At school I read/posted in this thread. I left school, came home and read and am posting in here again. I haven't yet had a moment to go to the JCC because I'd been doing other moderating things such as reading and reply to PMs, posting in the MS, etc. I don't live on the JCC 24-7. I can't do everything and be everywhere all at once, but I do my best to do what I can.

    i was talking about it becoming a real problem and concern to the membership overall. whenever a "problem" isn't trivial, and a concern of many, it comes up in comms either as a thread or a discussion within another thread.

    I read your entire statement. It seemed to me to say that unless there is a thread in Comms on the thread in question, they shouldn't have been closed. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, and if I am, I do apologize.

    and once again, if you say you know that a thread is harmless, then why don't you just explain to the person complaining that it's all in good fun, harmless, innocent, etc and that they've just misunderstood???

    I wasn't the only one that got PMs on the thread. I can't respond to PMs I didn't receive. I also don't think that it is the administrations job to explain a thread to a user. The thread itself is what makes the statement. Be responsible for what you post and how it could possibly be misinterperted. Believe it or not flaming does abound on the web and it's easy to see someone reading those threads as being serious and that type of behavior ok for the boards.
     
  19. EmpressPalpatine

    EmpressPalpatine Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 31, 2001
    can I make a suggestion here???

    WHat about one OFFICIAL thread where the type of posting that the guys enjoy can take place.... that way, the Mods can keep an eye on inappropriate posts, and users who might be offended will know to steer clear...


    just a calm voice of reason here....
     
  20. royalguard96

    royalguard96 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 13, 2001
    cbjedi, that thread is currently 25 (or 50, depending on your ppg count) pages long. If it's been allowed to live that long, it couldn't have been all bad.

    Right?
     
  21. Ewan-Kenobi

    Ewan-Kenobi Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 21, 2000
    No CB, that's the thread for DB members. I'm afraid you misunderstood the thread title. :)
     
  22. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 27, 2000
    Point is, suppose someone comes along who likes posting like that, but isn't a member of our board. We've already been told by DLE to keep it to that thread. OK, so we keep to it. It's ours, not a general melting pot thread. If it were, it would have been started by a mod, called the "Come insult your fellow JCers Theme Thread", and have the proper papers identifying it as a Type 3a §21 subsection C theme social thread pursuant to the reforms of Oct. '02, and have the JCC Mod's e-seal stamped on the bottom.
     
  23. EmpressPalpatine

    EmpressPalpatine Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 31, 2001
    No, no.. we do not mind non-DB members coming and socializing with us, but it's more than just a "Spam and Insult" thread... it's a social thread here on the JC for DB members.
     
  24. EmpressPalpatine

    EmpressPalpatine Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 31, 2001
    I just don't see why the current thread can't fill that niche.


    it shouldn't have to, any more than the Blue Yoda society, or the DarK Lords thread should. The thread was not set up for that, as you yourself know, having read some of the earlier posts, and posted yourself. Don't use generalizations, CB, not everyone in DB partakes in that type of posting, nor does everyone who engages in it belong to DB. The two are overlapping to some degree, in regards to certain users, but not always inclusive.

     
  25. EmpressPalpatine

    EmpressPalpatine Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 31, 2001
    CB, While on the surface it does seem like a good idea, and at first, I was inclined to agree with you, the problem I see, in thinking it over, is that,while I am sure in the beginning, the majority of posters would be DB members and our friends, but as time went on, more and more non-DB members would be posting in that thread, and soon it would bear no resemblance to the social thread it is now, and the people the thread was created for would be pushed out, and probably forced to create another thread, thus defeating the purpose...

    DO you see my point?
     
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