Clone Wars Women in TCW

Burtoni was pretty bad; nothing really sympathetic about her. Kinda wish she'd appear again.

Perhaps I didn't word my initial post well. Any character can be sympathetic - Dooku is a character one can have sympathy for, Maul is someone people can have sympathy for. They are still evil characters though.

What does seem to be happening is these evil females are ending up, at the very least, no longer evil. Maybe its not as pronounced as I thought it was, minus events yet to come, but it is a story telling dynamic TCW is using. Talzin and Sing have not gone this route as yet.

Of course the show has done this at length with Hondo as well so its happening all over the place.

Still think it would be logical for the Republic to introduce the concept of a competition for a military contract, given the sub-par products that have rolled out of Kamino with increasing frequency. Burtoni seems like she could be key to that. Also, given that the commerce guilds can operate much more freely in the CIS and the Republic is struggling with finances and the Kaminoans are friendly to those with a "big pocket book." It just seems natural that Burtoni might covertly meet with the CIS about providing cloning services to them instead.

"Inconspicuous" is whatever is normal. If every Frenchman walked around wearing a hat with a battery-operated police flasher and a Day-glo sign around their necks that said "I stick tater tots up my butt", if you wanted to blend in with Frenchmen, that's what you'd wear.

Remember, all these things are cultural. Wear a miniskirt, and you'll stand out like a sore thumb in Riyadh. Wear a burqa, and you'll stand out like a sore thumb on Venice Beach. It's all relative.

When the first bikini came out, it was considered so scandalous that the guy who invented it had to hire a professional stripper to model it because no other models would wear it. Now we walk along beaches full of women wearing them and barely notice. Women routinely wear clothing now that would have gotten them thrown in jail a hundred years ago, and again, we barely notice. Check out the pictures of Bettie Page that Irving Klaw got thrown in jail on obscenity charges for distributing back in the 50s - mostly she's wearing a bra, garter belt, and "granny panties" so big that women routinely wear shorter shorts as their outergarments now.


(Hardcore pornography, 1956-style)

The point is that women today routinely wear clothing that would have been considered indecent as late as when my dad was a kid. In those days, those clothes would have attracted an "incredible amount of male attention" -but now we barely notice them.

Sure, but remember, that's during open warfare, where the Jedi are acting as Generals, living among their clone troopers, and there's no real need to hide who they are. But even though that's what we see most often in TCW, it's an anomaly by Jedi standards. Most of the time, they don't do that.

TCW has done a great job with women in general, even though Leia still holds the cake as my favorite female depiction in the Star Wars saga. Padmé, Satine, Ventress, Aurra, and Ahsoka are powerful in their own right. I'm glad they changed Anakin's padawan from a male to a female. Ahsoka's new costume I really don't have much problem with quite frankly. It's blatantly modest compared to other teenage girls on television.

@AkashKedavra_93: I don't disagree that Ahsoka dresses like some RL teenagers. But she's a Jedi and fighting in a freaking war! Soldiers don't dress like that (IMHO, obviously).

And obviously, the female Jedi aren't "monks" like the men (/joke, based on the view some fans have of the Order).

But I agree that the females are just as much a mixed bag of villain and heroes as the men, which is huge. Satine & Miraj are both strong women and imperfect women as well - not some idealized idea of perfection.

I would say Ahsoka is more modesto than Aayla. But yeah, a bit more armor would make practical sense.

The weaker sex needs extra protection?

Who?

(Am I showing my generation deficiency, here?)

Well, one argument might say that women, being generally lighter and smaller, depend more on speed and agility than on power. Thus, a bunch of heavy, restrictive armor (or indeed, restrictive clothing of any kind) would take away their greatest advantage in any martial arts battle.

This does make a certain amount of sense - look at Ahsoka vs. Grievous at the end of the recent Young Jedi arc. Basically, that was speed and agility vs. power, and Ahsoka was able to hold her own against a very tough opponent. Weigh her down with 20 or 30 pounds of armor, and will she still be able to move the same way? Probably not. So in the end, armor and even heavier, more restrictive clothing simply might not be worth it.

It armor hinders a woman, it would do the same for a man.

There is no reason to believe that women would benefit from a lack of armor while a man would need it.

Throughout history armor always been developed in response to enemy weapons and reflects certain kinds of warfare. E.G. where it's extremely hot, or where cavalry warfare is used, people tended to wear lighter leather armor or no armor at all.

In Europe, there was chain mail and leather, and then as arrows became more powerful with the longbow, there was a shift toward heavy plate mail. And then when gun powder was invented that could punch through plate mail, armor was abandoned all together because it served no purpose until the invention of bullet proof vests. Same thing with castles. Construction of extremely, extremely expensive and elaborate castles stopped when they could just be blown apart with cannons.

Which always made it weird that the Jedi would even wear armor. On screen evidence seems to suggest that it's about as effective as tissue paper and offers no protection against standard blasters. Stormtroopers might use it for the intimidation factor, utility belt, and if their helmets offer any kind of digital readout. But for the Jedi I don't know why... especially if they are just going to do something as stupid as only armoring their arms and upper chest. I'm glad the updated character models moved away from the armored look.

Sure there is. It all depends on your body type and fighting style. If your fighting style depends on speed and agility, restrictive clothing and bulky, heavy armor are probably more trouble than they're worth. This is especially true if your body is smaller and lighter, which - sorry if it offends you, but biology is what it is - is generally true of women, which means that the effects of heavy armor on them will be greater. On the other hand, if your fighting style depends on power, and your body is bigger and heavier, the effects of bulky clothing and armor will be minimal, making the advantage of having it worth the tradeoff in increased weight and decreased speed and agility.

Think of it this way - whose fighting style would be more impacted by weighing them down with 25 pounds of bulky armor that restricts their movements: Ahsoka, or Krell? Ahsoka probably weighs, what, 100 pounds dripping wet? Adding that armor to her means she has to maintain her same speed and agility - which again, are critical to her fighting style - when burdened down with armor that weighs a quarter of her body weight. Krell probably weighs maybe 400 or 500 pounds. He'll barely notice the weight of that armor, and it will affect his fighting style only minimally. Understanding that virtually anything represents a tradeoff - having more of X means you'll have less of Y - that armor is likely worth it for Krell, and not worth it for Ahsoka.

No, it's not. It means "doesn't attract attention".

And everyone would stare at you, wondering what the hell was wrong with you and all Frenchmen.

This is a bogus comparison anyway, as if Aayla would often be able to blend in with a crowd of Twi'leks. She's not going to be surrounded by half naked Twi'leks on a regular basis.

This point is ludicrous and a strawman. This isn't about what would get Aayla Secura thrown in jail.

Uh, what society do you live in that men "barely notice" scantily clad women? Last time I checked men don't flock to beaches or strip clubs to not notice women, and I still see men turning around to check women out as they walk by in something that grabs their attention on a regular basis in every setting.

Twi'lek females are in no way presented as "ho hum" just because everyone knows they don't wear much, they're consistently portrayed as jaw dropping.

Aayla is attracting more attention with her attire than she would attract with something more conservative.

If remaining inconspicuous is no longer a concern during the majority of the Clone Wars, then they lose the very reasoning for their attire that you suggest.

Really, it's a nice idea, but it doesn't hold up.

25 lbs of armor isn't going to do the job for both Krell AND Ahsoka. Ahsoka's armor would weigh significantly less than Krell's just by virtue of the amount of material needed to cover the larger surfaces of Krell's body. And we don't know how much the armor weighs. Doesn't appear to be metal, and in universe I'm not sure what it's supposed to be (out of universe it just looks like plastic with a cloth underlay). Plus the point is kind of irrelevant since none of the Jedi (especially now) wear full suits of armor, but rather just robes. Discussion seemed to be more about Ahsoka's clothes. And while there might be an advantage to running around half naked (but really... how restrictive are loose fitting robes?) any advantage that gives to Aayla and Ahsoka would also hold true for Anakin, Mace, etc. The robes offer no protection except from indecent exposure and weather. If they were that restrictive that individuals had to make a point of running around half-naked to be free from the burden of clothes, then you would think everyone would.

Right - and whatever is "normal" won't attract attention.

Who's "everybody"? If I was in France, and Frenchmen dressed that way, everyone would stare at me if I didn't dress like that, because I'd be the only one not doing it. As for everybody else, they'd stare for about a month, then they'd simply get used to the fact that that's how Frenchmen dress.

The first time I ever saw someone use a Bluetooth headset, I stared at them because I thought they looked like a crazy person, standing there having a conversation with thin air, with a weird earpiece with a flashing light on them that made them look like they'd been assimilated by the Borg. For about a month, I kept staring, because it seemed so strange to me. Ten years or so later, I see them all the time, and barely notice.

No, but she will be surrounded by people who expect her to look like a Twi'lek. And if that's how Twi'leks dress, then that's what they'll expect from her.

If by "check out" you mean flash a two-second glance their way without really taking a close look, then maybe. But if your circle of friends include a bunch of men who stand around staring intently at every woman who passes by wearing any clothing more skimpy than you'd find at the local convent, well, then maybe you should start hanging out with a classier group of guys.

Again, no offense, but I think this issue may be a bit more related to yourself than perhaps you've yet come to terms with.

Once someone gets used to having a certain style, they tend to stick with it.

Or did you think all the female Jedi would just be all like: "Oops! War's on! Time to go shopping for a new wardrobe!"

Not necessarily true. Again, it depends on your body type and fighting style.

Perhaps, but I still maintain that the effect both of the weight and of the bulk of the armor would be disproportionate on someone who's smaller and whose fighting style depends on speed and agility.

Yeah, I'm surprised this needs to be stated. From my end I've certainly always noticed varying male reaction to what I wear, and I expect it. And correct me if I'm wrong here, but aren't men more likely to be stimulated visually than women?

But hell, I'll just submit to my boss that we should be able to wear midriff-and-cleavage-baring clothes to work, since apparently visitors in the building would "barely notice."

And before anyone gets into a discussion about whether such clothing is "normal"--I live in the South. It's ****ing hot around here at least six months of the year. I'm in a tank top and shorts in the summer when I'm not either at work or in my swimsuit, and that is the norm. But there is still a reason that people are not allowed to dress that way all the time, even in warm months.

I'm not even attracted to women and I noticed Aayla in that outfit.

Really, @Narutakikun, I'm not sure what you're arguing. That people shouldn't notice that the Twi'lek women are scantily clad? I don't think you can really tell people what to notice. That their manner of dress is not for the purpose of heterosexual male eye candy? If that's the case, you're going to have to put forth more substantial proof than you're putting forth so far.

Wrong. Topless strippers are "normal" at a topless bar, and all they do is attract attention. There are a million more examples, even outside of sexual attraction.

They won't be surprised by what she's wearing, but they'll still drool.

So wherever Aayla goes, at the very least you admit all men in the area will give her a second glance. I thought her being half naked was inconspicuous? Maybe some will try to get a little closer? Try to get her comm info, a date, etc?

Compare that to seeing a Twi'lek who just happens to not be half naked. Do you think their suspicion alarms will go off? Will they have any reason to give her a second glance?

Yeah, I'm sure women who dress more provocative don't get more attention. Right, it's just me.

Nah, just likely to abandon attire that has lost its (supposed) advantage and is now a disadvantage due to current circumstances. (but the comment about women and shopping was a nice touch)

You know, the same way Obi-Wan and other Jedi have ditched their heavy cloaks in favor of their "under-robes" and armor attachments. Before you say "but small people wouldn't wear heavy armor" (because I actually agree), there is still an advantage to being fully covered in light attire, eg environmental protection.

I think I've made my case well enough, and I think you don't have one, so I'm content to discontinue this discussion.

Besides, it could be worse. Nothing like showing up for a fight with free-flowing, butt-length hair, a pleated miniskirt, and four-inch stiletto pumps: