Lit Wookieepedia, the Star Wars wiki

It was more his followers than Dr. Saxton himself that people weren't fond of.

 

Well, think of it as inertia thinking. Before 04/25 there were tons of products with zero story elements that nevertheless were treated as official information: RPG guides, Card games, Toys packaging, Essential guides, web articles and so on. They took effort not to contradict established info, weaved all contradicting stories into a new narrative web and anything that was introduced in them was fair game to later appear in a story proper.

On 04/25 old stuff was declared irrelevant, but people kept the same mentality going forward: Any visual dictionary or reference guide released past that date is treated as part of NuCanon and any EU elements mentioned in it are treated as being reintroduced to it. LFL said that FFG is an exception and does not count for NuCanon, and that means it has to count for classic SWEU. It can't not count at all because that's not how RPG guides worked in the past.

For example, Nexus of Power contains new information on Ulic Qel-Droma. Where is that supposed to go? It makes no sense by itself in the vacuum, it makes no sense to place it in NuCanon which refuses to touch the Old Republic era, and it makes no sense to leave Ulic's biography incomplete without it either. Adding it there is the only logical choice.

 

If it's in Nexus of Power it's not intended to go into canon or legends. Because it's FFG. Though with non-gamer people it's becoming more like FFS.

 

I don't think an article that isn't labeled as canon or Legends necessarily has to exist in a vacuum. If FFG articles were to be created without either of those labels, they can still reference and call upon information in canon and Legends articles. It's just that vice versa, canon and Legends articles probably won't reference what's in an FFG article.

In the case of Ulic Qel-Droma, like you mentioned, I think that information could still be referenced in the Ulic Qel-Droma page. It should just be labeled as non-canon, and being specific to FFG.

IMO this is the right mindset to have!

Wookieepedia is an enjoyable hobby to me. It never used to be. I used to be an admin on the Star Wars Fanon Wiki and preferred writing my own fan fiction stories. Writing about official events was never that interesting. But I got into it after the canon reboot and started writing Wookieepedia entries about Darth Maul: Son of Dathomir, since I didn't see anyone else really contributing that much for it. That was my opening and I enjoyed it after that. But I always felt it was important to not take it too seriously.

Part of why I think I'm able to do that is that I focus on the reader, not the editor. I don't think articles or policies should be written with me in mind or with any other Wookieepedia editor in mind. That makes things too insular. I recognize that Wookieepedia editors are a very small group of people and a very specific type of fan. With an eye towards readers, IMO it becomes a better website.

I certainly have opinions about Star Wars and Star Wars storytelling but I feel that if I'm going to embrace canon and embrace the Star Wars storytelling process then there needs to be some level of division between my opinions and what creators are creating.

 

I'm not saying Legends should be "lumped together" with Lego or Infinities or whatnot. I'm saying that the definition of "non-canon" needs to be more broad than just "Legends" in order to make meaningful sense of it all. It's a bigger picture than just "canon vs Legends." I agree entirely that Legends should continue to be documented and never intended to suggest otherwise.

 

Not fools. Fooled by fools.

 

Incorrect. FFG have been crystal clear about the intent of their books, and it's been confirmed again and again by developers like Sam Stewart and Keith Kappel. It's just that the Wookiepedian bubble is so pronounced that they'd rather make arrogant, ignorant assumptions around a product they seemingly do not and cannot understand, rather than verify for themselves.

Wookiepedia making repeated, stupid errors over how to treat FFG is due to the Wookiepedians, and nobody else.

 

I've seen the Rathars, Espiron and the crossguard lightsaber mentions on SWTOR, but I'm sure Lothal is not mentioned in SWTOR. If its where?

 

To me things like that should be fair game in SWTOR just as Legends concepts and worlds are fair game in canon. If new stories can canonize Legends planets, species, weapons, and what not, I see no reason why SWTOR can't "Legendize" canon ones.

 

Agreed. Having Lothal in the EU doesn't make Rebels canon to the EU. Having crossguard sabers surely doesn't make TFA canon to the EU. I seriously don't see how this is a wrench in the gears for some people.

 

Well said. Just like having Thrawn in Rebels doesn't mean that Heir to the Empire is canon.

 

Can I raise an unpopular opinion?

I see it sort of like science -- what the Wook posts on the "canon" tab is considered "fact" or strongly regarded theory. But the old EU I see as untested theory land. I don't see it as a strict canon/non-canon divide, but canon vs a fuzzy land of potential canon information. What's in Legends could become theory/fact someday if it proves it has merit.

So Heir to the Empire is a wild hypothesis proposed by Zahn (1991) and it's almost certainly not canon in its entirety, but aspects of this crazy Heir Hypothesis could be true. Like Thrawn, and now Rukh. I've no doubt events or specific actions Thrawn mentioned or engaged in during the TTT will eventually become canon, albeit not as they were hypothesized in the original TTT.

Along those lines, SWTOR is pseudoscience taking from both sides.

I'm not critiquing anything about the Wook here, but just my take on how I read the page divide now. Which I think was a smart decision and I have no problem with it. But I think some people take it too seriously, like what goes in both tabs is etched in stone for all eternity. I like canon vs fuzzy possibility more.

 

I love playing loose with canon as much as anyone, but I think the "Legends" section should be the pre-2014 bubble. Basically an archive of the old canon + any new information taking place in the old canon. Just cause it isn't canon anymore definitely doesn't mean people don't want accurate information on the universe.

 

Same. Those books are still sold so the information exists and is documented as its own separate continuity, so readers can still go to those pages and learn more about what they're reading in Legends books.

That being said, outside the Wookieepedia lens, I like the idea of it all being theory where some is true and some isn't.

 

I've seen several people here say that the developers of FFG state it's clearly not canon, does anyone have a link to somewhere that they say this? I've been fairly dubious of it's inclusion in canon myself and searched for such statements in the past but not found them. If such statements exist then I'd be happy to bring it up on Wookieepedia to try and change how FFG sources are currently treated.

 

You'd have to go through all the shownotes for the Order 66 podcast to find them. The best I can give you is this one I posted about as I heard it:

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...etting-better.50003547/page-211#post-54430675

 

Although I guess it ought to be pointed out, again, that regardless of their intent, the FFG authors are not empowered to decide whether their material is canon or not. FFG material is not canon, that is correct, but Story Group makes that call, not FFG.

 

Yes, but it also needs to be called out that people who don't play the RPG are the only people struggling with this concept.

A licenced property roleplaying game sourcebook has one purpose, and one purpose only - to support the GM's story in that world, under those rules. That is the only reason it exists. Any information it contains is there to facilitate the GM's purpose. It's not to world build for the IP.

The statement you make Positive Fan is absolutely one a non-gamer makes. You people care about stuff FFG don't and never will. But, as an experiment, go start a canon chat on the FFG boards.

 

I'm a gamer. I ran my first game with WEG in 1988. Will be playing our current FFG campaign tonight (I'm usually GM but taking a brief hiatus, resuming in a few weeks).

I understand fully why the sourcebooks exist and the purpose they serve. And I am fully in agreement that they are acanonical. I'm just trying to clarify that regardless of why FFG wrote the books or what their opinion on the topic is, they aren't making that call. Story Group is. They control what is and isn't canon. FFG doesn't have the power to release material bearing the Star Wars logo, a Lucasfilm trademark, and a Story Group credit, and then declare by their own authority that any lore they contain is or isn't canon. That's all I'm trying to point out.

 

However, in the absence of anything from the Story Group saying that FFG content is story canon, Wookieepedia should default to what the creators say about it. It's one thing to have missing content on the wiki and then add it in later. It's another thing, and a worse thing, for Wookieepedia, a site so engrained in Star Wars fandom, to say something is canon only to have to take it back. Because by then, people have read it and believed it.

 

Correct, Brandon. Wookiepedia's implicit authority is pretty extensive, given you will hear people talk about using that a resource in writing their own original SWU works. This is why their continued, insipid insistence on propagating the wrong information gets under my skin; it's indefensibly dumb and largely quite arrogant.

An analogy would be asking Wookiepedians if they think, say, Kyle Katarn had to press the Function keys for Force Powers, or space to jump. When they say 'of course not, it's just video game mechanics', you not knowingly at them and say "correct. And roleplaying mechanics are no different".

 

As someone who's been playing various incarnations of the Star Wars RPG for a quarter century as of this year, and who was brought into Star Wars fandom largely as a result of doing so, I can tell you I'm struggling with it.

Umm ... no? Licensed property sourcebooks have performed the dual purpose of serving both roleplayers and a general readership since the beginning:

Granted, some game lines serve this dual purpose better than others - WEG was generally pretty balanced for both players and aficionados, while WotC's offerings erred consistently on the side of the game over the general readership - but WotC lore was clearly written to be a part of the bigger picture and not its own independent thing.

Positive Fan is right, though. The Story Group has the authority to make the call as to what Star Wars materials are canon, not any given licensee. It appears to be a moot point, as it seems from what's been discussed here that there's no discrepancy between the Story Group's and FFG's approach to the material, but starting a canon chat on the FFG boards is no more definitive than starting one here.

And if you think Keith Kappel doesn't care about "this stuff" and never will, you clearly don't know the man or his past work. At FFG he may have writerly responsibilities to carry out that contradict his personal inclinations, but since the days of Cracken's Crew he's always been deeply invested in the lore of the setting and how to set stories in it that enhance it without interfering with it.

Mechanics and lore are two different things; Wookieepedia doesn't include function keys and the spacebar any more than it includes Chewbacca's 5D Strength attribute score, or Anakin Skywalker's Strong in the Force feat. The lore created for past versions of SW roleplaying games - and for the video games - were vital and worthy parts of the setting. I understand the situation with FFG isn't the same, but the new canon is impoverished for that fact.

 

I don't get why Wookieepedia wont use jedibibliothek as a source. They used it for Rebels episodes. Why not upcoming books? They are almost always correct and when things are cancelled (like the Insider compilations) they remove them from the site. They are up to date and always ahead of Amazon. Wook should really utilize them and make them an Official Friend of Wookieepedia imho

 

I commend you on an either intentionally profound misreading, or I am sorry to hear you missed the point.

Kappel's words are clear. The material included relevant to the quote was specifically saying "don't let hangups about canon get in the way here; if we had to adhere strictly to canon our product would be less for it." I mean, I've cited innumerable times where people can find the quote but it's apparently a bit much effort to go listen as it might burst bubbles.

This is the key argument. It's not that they don't appreciate canon or want a rich lore. It's that their corner of the 'galaxy' is largely self contained and wants to empower GMs to tell the best story they can. It's somewhat frustrating to have to keep repeating this to people who see Dash Rendar in Fly Casual and think he's canonised again.

 

Wookiepedia doesn't use leaks as sources.