Discussion in 'Literature' started by Le_Sammler, Jul 10, 2005.
Boy, that's stupid. I'm reading Invincible. On page 264, Caedus is named. On page 265 & 282 & 294, Jacen Solo is named.
In-universe, the last regular Joe, a person of an opposing faction to ever call this person by name was Isolder on page 250. What is this person known as at the end of his life? What was it that this person was named?
Isolder calls him, "You're not as clever as you think, Jacen." As in Jacen Solo -- you know, that character's name.
Next take Tahiri and Ben's exchange. Ben: "Because you know Caedus isn't going to take you back?" Tahiri: "Yeah, but I'm done with him. . . I'm done with all Solos." According to their rule, shouldn't the page technically be. . . Darth Caedus Solo.
And hell, who is it that Jaina's thinking about at the very, very end of the book. Yeah, her thoughts are with Jacen Solo. Who is it that anyone's talking about in Chapter 20? The Epilogue? It's Jacen, not Caedus.
Evidently, enforcers of Wookipedia's rule are either not as clever as they think, or too clever by half for all the rest of the people who might simply want to read up on Jacen Solo. To call Jacen's page "Darth Caedus" is idiotic and clearly arbitrary under their own referenced rule.
Take it to Wookieepedia then
1) There are Wookieepedians who post here.
2) Didn't you read the "Talk" section? Don't you see their reaction when people bring this up?
Funny, the addendum to the "name at the end of life" rule states:
"Whenever two or more names were used by the character simultaneously (adopted names included), use the most commonly known of those names (for example: both Palpatine and Dooku were commonly known under their official names, which they continued to use alongside their Sith titles, so those names are preferred for the respective articles). "
Darth Caedus was the more common name?
That rule was to stop people wanting to move "Mara Jade Skywalker" and "Leia Organa Solo" back to their maiden names. It was never meant to arbitrate Sith names.
I'm not talking about "Sith names" in general. Focus on this portion:
"Whenever two or more names were used by the character simultaneously (adopted names included), use the most commonly known of those names"
Which one was the most commonly known? Darth Caedus, or Jacen Solo?
Ah -- now that makes sense. I remember the Mara/Leia debate. But Jacen's is, obviously, a different case.
Exactly. Only until recently did people start calling him "Darth Caedus." Today, most people refer to him as "Jacen" unless they're specifically referring to something he did in LOTF (and even then, it's often just "Jacen").
I think you haven't read all of the talk page(s) in question. There's a pretty lengthy arguments in both the primary talk page and in the Talkarth Caedus/Archive4 (that and earlier archives can be visited by the topmost template on the primary talk page).
Both of which are dealt with by redirects.
Here's the thing. Wookieepedia needs a standardized way of titling articles; we found that out early on, when move wars were happening fairly regularly to articles like Emperor Palpatine/Palpatine/Darth Sidious, Princess Leia/Leia Organa/Leia Organa Solo, and so forth. (Note I didn't mention Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader; at the time, we had two different articles for him! Oy, those were the days.) Dropping titles was easy, but figuring out what actual name to use wasn't. Using birth names didn't seem right for a majority of applicable characters (Qymaen jai Sheelal seemed wrong for Grievous, Dessel seemed wrong for Darth Bane, etc.), and using the name a character used at "the height of a character's career" or some other nebulous mid-life timeframe was too subjective to apply usefully. After a LOT of debate, this led us to use the name the character used at the latest point we see him in the timeline, which for dead characters, is at their death. This works pretty well for most characters; folks like Grievous and Bane and Leia Organa Solo all wind up at places you'd expect as a result of it. Unfortunately, when LotF rolled around, it didn't work in Jacen's favor (to your and my eyes, at any rate; there were no shortage of Sith lovers chomping at the bit to make the change).
I'm not convinced Jacen belongs where he is now, myself, but any change would require a change to a policy that generally serves us pretty well. Unless ...
... unless this bears some merit. Alas, I haven't followed enough of the post-NJO books to have a good sense of which name was attached to Caedus McSolo more when he died.
Sarek -- Thanks for the detailed response. The thing is, it only confirms the point I'm trying to make: there's no good, practical reason to use that "rule" on that page.
I read all the talk pages you linked to before I brought this up. The rule just doesn't practically fit for Jacen Solo. Every time someone tries to defend it, they either use circular logic or just say "This is the way it is because it's the way we've always done it." C'mon Sarek -- don't tell me you're buying into that!
EDIT: By the way, I'm not asking Wookieepedia to change its entire infrastructure. One exception to the "rule" isn't going to undermine the whole site.
The trick there is "were used by the character." By the end of his life, Jacen was only going by his Sith name; that's what he'd told everyone to call him, was using openly, and had said he would only be known as from then on. The fact that someone like Isolder calls Caedus by the name this guy from his past has known for all his life doesn't change what Caedus himself is actually going by at that point (Obi-Wan calling Vader "Anakin" during the ANH duel wouldn't have made Vader Anakin, had he struck down Vader there instead of the other way around). Contrast Dooku, who was actively going by two names depending on context, and hadn't definitively picked one or the other as a "true" identity, so you resort to the more commonly known name. Conceptually, the Wookieepedia rule can basically be summarized as "What name would he have last used to refer to himself when talking into the mirror? If you can't tell, go with the more publicly known name." Since we do know that Caedus was only using the one name at the time of his death, we never have to get to the "common" tiebreaker.
I'd much prefer that he be under "Jacen Solo" myself, but that's not what the rule gives you, and as a whole the rule is probably the best one you can get, as it generally gives the most sensible outcomes. This is really the only one to quibble about, so you just have to live with this one instance. You could maybe try to amend the rule to add some kind of exception for names that are assumed shortly before death but disregarded by the public at large after the death, but I'm not sure that would even catch Jacen, since post-LOTF sources seem to use both names relatively evenly, with the main distinction being what time period the people are talking about and whether they're family or not.
I disagree with the naming convention, Havac, but my main problem with it - and my general issue with Wookieepedia - is that the impression I get from the talkbacks and such was that the rule was a justification for the decision, but not the reason the decision was made in the first place. It's the same impression I got from the ridiculous usage of Dac over Mon Calamari - or even the more recent, and more canon, Mon Cala.
It's a moot point, as I trust Wookieepedia only as far as I can actually see the original source material - as a reference itself it's mostly useless as I can't trust anything it says on its own, which is unfortunate because I certainly afforded the USWE that trust.
Well, Mon Cala might be from higher canon source, but everybody called the planet Dac by 138 ABY, so there's at least clear reason for that naming here.
Regarding Caedus example... the sited rule is, funnily enough, of my own wording, but I based it on existing practice back then. See, one of the problems I have with Wookieepedians in general is that they very strongly follow the rules... which they always establish for themselves. So way more than once I saw a discussion end up in: "Look, we're all agree with you and would love it to see this way too! Unfortunately, the rules prevent us from doing that, end of story." Apparently changing the rules themselves is never a viable option, go figure.
While we're on subject of Wookieepedia "bashing", I would love to bring another increasingly common trend to attention. Some users prefer to work on their pet projects on their own subpages... and then never release them on the wiki proper. Compare for example Existing Rex article with an Improved one: the second version is several times longer, much more detailed and features precise referencing to not just sentences, but single words (which lately has become standard practice). And yet the only people to see it are other Wookieepedians who are already in the loop about its existence: the casual reader has no idea where to look for a full version, which is by the way among the 5 longest articles on the whole Wook. The official reasoning for that is the article is not "ready"... but then no article ever is. And even though it's updated regularly, any attempts to bring those changes to the actual mainspace article are almost immediately reverted (go ahead, try it). And it's not like it's a temporary workbench either - that version has been around for almost as long as TCW has been on air. So much for "encyclopedia that anyone can edit" - the hardcore Wookieepedians now appear to be more interested in editing itself than presenting its results to the actual reader of the Wook, which is a real shame.
Vanity projects that stay in limbo because some "Wookieepedian" couldn't bother to edit piece by piece on the main article? Why, you make it sound like there's self-important egotists with heads jammed tightly up their own backsides over there. That's not nice and certainly not an accurate description of the site's evolution in the slightest!
The rule predates Caedus significantly, and I recall the move being more reluctant than anything. The talkpage harshness comes more out of being sick of the constant bitching about the name, half of which was about how he was totally redeemed so he was really "Jacen" at the end, rather than powers in place really wanting the name. And also the fact that the article talk page isn't really the place to complain about Wookieepedia's naming conventions; the Senate Hall is for that kind of general discussion. I won't deny that there's a fair instance of Wookieepedians gaming the system to suit their own prejudices or just for their own amusement, but this isn't one of them.
Caedus I can swallow, but what about the Death Star? You do know that over at Wookieepedia the Death Star is called the "DS-One Orbital Battle Station," right? Now that is WRONG.
Now, what is wrong with that? Rebellion Ere Campaign Guide clearly established that as it's official designation in Imperial records.
IIRC it is stated to not have an official name in the novel Death Star...
The Rebellion guide came after the novel.
I think the bottom line is that Wookieepedia just has to not be accepted as an encyclopedia - obtuse naming conventions don't really coexist with common sense names for entries. The rules can be changed, as has been pointed out, especially since they were created by the same people - but they won't for that same reason.
Out of curiosity, I checked what the CSWE had:
Caedus, Darth - See Solo, Jacen.
Dac - See Mon Calamari.
Everyone in the Legacy era refers to the planet as "Dac". It's not really comparable to the Jacen Solo situation.
I don't understand what'd be wrong with stuff like "Jacen Solo (Darth Caedus)", honestly, but I'm in a tiny minority.
Once again, redirects mean there is no trouble finding an article, even if you only know it by a nickname.
Redirects are supposed to be used for nicknames. Are you honestly telling me that people looking up the homeworld of the Calamari would mostly be using "Dac" over "Mon Calamari"?
That probably comes in a distant third after the current season.
"No trouble" is a cop-out. It's a poor design for a site that is purporting to be (somewhat) of an encyclopedia, and doesn't address my original concern - that the reason for picking one name over another seems to be personal preference and that the rules are then used as a justification after the fact.
It's not as bad as, say, what happened with the whole "Mirror, Mirror" fiasco, or the "automatic system" nonsense that happened when the Atlas came out, but it still belies an attitude that wasn't present with the USWE. If I didn't think it would change - partly because people that I do trust are working over there, then honestly I wouldn't bother saying anything now. And like I've said, it's still useful in its current form as a reference to find sources. But I see no reason to trust any text contained within it unless I can verify the original source.
Again, I see no reason why there can't be an exception made to this so-called "rule."
The fact that rules like that take precedence over common sense is the problem with Wookieepedia. The discussion boards there are called the "Senate Hall" for good reason.... The problem with Wookieepedia is its increasing autism, and that's a general trend in Star Wars fandom, unfortunately.
As far as Jacen and the "name rule" goes, let me present a proper example from Wikipedia: Jesus Christ. Now that's not the name the man used at the time of his death, and that's fairly certain. The name he used at the time of his death is unknown, but we have indications that it could be Yeshu. So he'd be Yeshu ben Yosef, Yeshu Notzrim, Yehoshua ben Pantera, or whatnot. Wikipedia has a Jesus article, dealing with the Christian concept of the Messiah and all that, it has a Yeshu article, dealing with the occurrences of the original form of the name, it has a Toledot Yeshu article, dealing with the body of traditional Jewish stories about Yeshu, it has a Historical Jesus article, dealing with a non-Christian contemporary perspective of Jesus, it has a Quest for the historical Jesus article (WtF? ), and it has a GG Allin article, who was mostly known as GG Allin despite the fact that officially he was born Jesus Christ Allin and officially he died Kevin Michael Allin.
And at Wookieepedia, we call the Death Star the DS-One Orbital Battle Station....