Cincin, OH WOOOHOOOO!

Hopefully everybody has heard by now, but Saddam Hussein is alive and now taking up residence in a US army Jail cell!
This is definately something I never thought would happen and hopefully this will silence alot of the nay-sayers and help people to realize that the right decision was made when we sent our troops over seas.

 

Thank God that he is finally captured. I can't believe it. A dark age for Iraq is over and now can go on more safely to freedom.

 

I heard this news literally right after I read this


but, this is incredible, finally, things can begin anew without fear of terrorism in Iraq

 

This is great news for the people in the the soldiers still there. However, we must keep our guard up, because resistance forces are still at large in Iraq. On a political note, this news is a positive for the Republican Party, especially after the Democratic debates last week where Dean and company made comments about the US leaving Iraq, and that we never should have been there. Hopefully, Dean will think before he makes comments that can destroy his run for the presidency. To Gerorge Bush and the American soldiers fighting for our country, stay safe and thanks for all you do too keep peace.

 

help people to realize that the right decision was made when we sent our troops over seas
While capturing Saddam is a good thing, there is alot of things that still must be addressed/answered before any kind of final opinion can be made whether this was the right call.

I think Bush set a dangerous precident by ignoring any and all kind of international effort, and made this a US occupation (those "coalition members" are nothing more then hired help)

The fact remains there has yet to be any significant PROOF of the WMDs...and the Bush administration has been left like Rick Moranis ordering SPACEBALLs to "Comb the Desert!...and we all know the resonse THAT got!

Who will conduct the "war crimes" trial? Or is all this talk about transfering control of the Iraqi government BACK to the Iraqi people just a tactic to continue what has become a long-term occupation of a foriegn country? Even during the Neuremburg Trials...the accused had a chance to defend themselves. This sounds like it's gonna be nothing more of an "lynch-mob" than any kind of fair trial.

Unfortunatly, I think this is the worst thing that could happen...because now the Bush administration is being viewed as unbeatable in the next election. Last time I checked...the American economy is still struggling, many people are still out of work...but we caught the guy who threatened Bush's dad (while he was President in the middle of his own war) Glad you got your persoanl agenda done W...can we focus on this country now???

 

the American economy is still struggling, many people are still out of work

not real sure where you get your economic information from except for maybe the liberally biased media, but in all honesty looking solely on the facts the Dow Jones hit the 10,000 mark, which it hadn't been there in 18 months, unemployment is actually at it's lowest since the Regan Administration. Those who are out of a job have lost it partially due to illegal immigrants taking jobs for lower pay and under the table.

It is a very often times overlooked concept that our economy runs in 4-8 year cycles. All the greatness that our economy saw during the Clinton years was all Regan and Bush senior, the crap that we have been going through in the last 4 years or so was all Clinton's doing. The current upswing is the beginnings of the recovery brought about by the original tax cut that Bush pushed through when he first took office, not the most recent one. If for some reason a Democrat does win the 2004 election they will of course take all the credit for the continued upswing that will be the result of the recent tax cuts.

I for one do not agree with all of Bush's economic policy: his medicare bill that just got signed into law is horrible and will be a very big economic disaster if we aren't careful. I know I don't want to have to pay for Bill Gate's prescriptions!


Back to the Topic at hand being "WOOOHOOOO!" The capture of Saddam is a big moral victory for us, the world, and most importantly the people of Iraq. I don't think this will stop the attacks, because the attacks aren't coming from Saddam loyalists for the most part, they aren't even coming from Iraqi's, they are coming from terrorists from surrounding areas. Even if we never find WMD I think we did the right thing firstly to rid Iraq of a horrible dictator and more importantly for the US to draw terrorists into "open" combat on an actual warfront with us rather than have them attack us on our own soil.

 

Krash, do you always just post an opinion contrary to that expressed by the poster?

Honestly, I dont see how anyone who isnt a Saddam supporter can say we made a bad decision. The man was solely responsible for the deaths well in the millions. If you arent convinced go look at some of the pictures of mass graves. There are babies just as sure as there are adults in them. Skeletons still wearing blindfolds. And I for one dont give a flying handshake what the rest of the world thinks. I'm glad we have someone running this country who is more concerned with doing what is morally and ethically right than with appeasing people who dont have the guts to stand up and speak out against whats wrong. If you think you can honestly go to Iraq and say to someone, I think it would have been better if we left your life and that of everyone you care about in the hands of a cruel, murdering psychopathic dictator. Not only that, but I think that your right to NOT be tortured to death, your right NOT to have your wife and daughters raped in front of you, your right to choose how to live your life and your right to NOT be killed for wanting something better for yourself are less important to me than what a small minority of countries who happen to have loud voices think. Russia and Germany didnt want war because they wanted Saddam to pay back all his foreign debts and give them all the oil they'd already paid for. When your wallet is your motivation what is the price of your morality?

 

-"those "coalition members" are nothing more then hired help"

The coalition includes Afghanistan, Albania, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Colombia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, El Salvador, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Georgia, Hungary, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, the Netherlands, Nicaragua, the Philippines, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Spain, Turkey, United Kingdom and Uzbekistan.
All those countries have pledged money and troops. So they are all hired help eh? Not a single one of those countries wants to be there? We are paying Tony Blair to go to war? We are paying Australia to send its best fighters and pilots? We are paying all these countries for them to send troops? I find that suggestion laughable, and I'm sure people within those countries, who's leaders have made this decision primarily at the mandate of their people, would find your statement offensive.

-"The fact remains there has yet to be any significant PROOF of the WMDs...and the Bush administration has been left like Rick Moranis ordering SPACEBALLs to "Comb the Desert!...and we all know the resonse THAT got"

I believe based on the evidence the administration had every cause to believe what they told us about WMD in Iraq. And you act as though Iraq were the 9 X 12 shack the unibomber lived in. Its a BIG country. And there is ALOT of room to hide something in. Given time I am confident they will be found and even if they arent I feel the entire conflict has been justified by the logic I just laid out in my previous post. if you feel we shouldnt have gone to war simply because our own butt wasnt in the fire, then you display a disturbing lack of morality. The man's hands were covered in blood. He perpetuated extreme crimes against humanity and against his people. And the regime that HE created was full of people who, either were evil enough to enjoy it and prosper from it, or cowardly enough to let it happen. All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. I'm glad we are led by a good man who did something.

"Who will conduct the "war crimes" trial? Or is all this talk about transfering control of the Iraqi government BACK to the Iraqi people just a tactic to continue what has become a long-term occupation of a foriegn country? Even during the Neuremburg Trials...the accused had a chance to defend themselves. This sounds like it's gonna be nothing more of an "lynch-mob" than any kind of fair trial"

If all we wanted was to permanently turn Iraq into New Texas we could easily do so. There is no gain from telling the world other wise. I can say with 99% certainty that Saddam will be turned over to the Iraqi government, A FREE IRAQI GOVERNMENT, something they have never known, and they will decide his fate. A "long term occupation" would be political suicide and suicide for any power we have in the world.
Frankly though, they should have pulled him out of that hole, strapped him to an ICBM and scattered him in the atmosphere. The only thing decided at his trial would be the punishment. There can be no doubt of his guilt in my opinion, though I'm sure he will have every opportunity to either bargain a deal with what he knows or defend himself.

 

I'm of the same opinion as another poster on this site (cant remember who)

"We've already found one weapon of mass destruction in Iraq"

Saddam has killed alot more people than some of the most dangerous weapons we could hope to find out there

 

do you always just post an opinion contrary to that expressed by the poster?
Not always, it's just in this case I disagree. Besides, having a different view then the current administration is not illegal (yet)

I dont see how anyone who isnt a Saddam supporter can say we made a bad decision
Having the opinion that bush's actions were wrong does not make you a "Saddam supporter"...nor does it make me the "13 of spades" or some other childish gimick to classify who are "good" and "bad" in world politics; or more specifically who the American people are supposed to consider "the enemy."

The man was solely responsible for the deaths well in the millions
There is no doubt Saddam is an evil man, but we didn't go in there because of those things...we supposedly went there to protect American interests (oil...WMD...whatever the excuse of the week is). If this whole "War on Terror" is supposed to be about bringing those responsible for attacks on America to justice...where is the man-hunt for the truth about Enron? It's only terrorism if they don't vote Republican?

When your wallet is your motivation what is the price of your morality?
Ask Vice President Cheny about Bechtel or Halliburton...and get back to me. They overcharged the American government for their contracts in Iraq...people in the Bush administration are standing by while their friends milk our tax dollars!

EDIT:
"We?re hoping at the end of this process the court is going to remind the vice president that he?s not above the law," said Sierra Club lawyer David Bookbinder. "That?s the claim he?s been making throughout this process, that he is simply immune from any inquiry into his activities." Those who have been following this case understand that Cheny (and the Bush Administration) have this belief that they are beyond question...and that is not right!

and will be a very big economic disaster if we aren't careful
So is the 87 billion spent on Iraq...Bush is throwing money around like it's going out of style. But now that we've caught "Cobra Commander"...nobody is gonna want to talk about the fact that Bush is spending money we don't have, and committing out troops to a long-term occupation in Iraq. With nothing but excuses and delays about returning control of Iraq to the Iraqi people.

at the mandate of their people, would find your statement offensive.
Actually, I know people with family and friends in Italy...and the OVERWHELMING public opinion has been anti-war Even Britian had massive protests when Bush and Blair got together. It is the politicians who are jumping on the Bush band-wagon, while the majority of the world (and many Americans) have been against this war from the start. And frankly it is the blind arrogance of the Bush Administration they find offensive.

 

long-term occupation in Iraq

How long were we in Germany after WWII?


87 billion split between Afghanistan and Iraq, which honestly SOUNDS like alot of money, but really actually isn't much. Our budget is in the trillions, well into the trillions. 87 Billions is a one time investment into our security while we go and spend EVERY YEAR who knows how much money providing welfare for people who are just to lazy to go out and get a job.

 

Actually in Britain, as here, the overwhelming MAJORITY support Blair's decision. It is, as usual, a very vocal minority and a liberal media bias that misconstrue the facts.

-I dont see how anyone who isnt a Saddam supporter can say we made a bad decision-

The only person who lost out in this were people who had business dealings with Saddam IE, Germany and Russia, and his followers. I didnt say you were a Saddam supporter because you didnt like bush, I said that because you seem to think we should have left him alone to continue filling mass graves with innocent people.

-Ask Vice President Cheny about Bechtel or Halliburton...and get back to me.

If you wish to state the facts, state all of them, including the fact that president Bush has come straight out with statements that Halliburton will be charged if the investigation shows they overcharged for fuel.

 

the fact that president Bush has come straight out with statements that Halliburton will be charged if the investigation shows they overcharged for fuel.
I'll believe that the day any high ranking Enron CEOs spend a day in prison! This is just another case of the Bush administration sweeping their friends' dirt under the rug.

Our budget is in the trillions, well into the trillions
But the wild decifit-spending Bush is doing is going to run this economy into the ground...for years (some say decades!) And critics (on both parties) have pointed out that Bush seems to have no concept of this.

you seem to think we should have left him alone to continue filling mass graves with innocent people
Again nobody is saying capturing Saddam is a bad thing...the man is evil. But this whole thread has gotten wrapped up in the fact that there is still much debate and difference of opinion over the Bush administration's actions and more specifically how they went about doing it. I am simple concerned about trading one dictator for another.

a liberal media bias that misconstrue the facts.
Would you rather have only a state-sponsered media...because that's more like the very same types of government we supposedly are fighting against.

 

Sooooo let me get this straight.... The only alternative to a liberal media is a state sponsored one then? So every piece of news I hear either needs a liberal stance, or big brother will come and get me? What happened to fair and balanced? What happened to objective reporting? Thats no longer an option is it?
I really dont see whats left to debate. We are in Iraq. The time to debate going there was before we went. Now our soldiers are getting run down by their own country for risking their lives to save lives because people like you think theres some point in debating that. Not only that but most democrats are saying we need to pull out right now immediately. Explain how its beneficial to do a half-assed job and have the entire region ten times worse. People are arguing this simply based on party lines, not because its good for america or because they care about american or iraqi lives. I think Bush is a good man doing the right thing. I believe it wholly, but I do not believe he is above mistakes. Like the medicare bill and his immigration policies. I will not blindly follow anyone save God himself, which Bush most certainly is not. Going to Iraq was the right thing to do. People need to start worrying about what is RIGHT for us to be doing. Not doing the opposite of what the other political party is doing. The only thing debating whether or not to be there does now is show weakness to an enemy when we need to be strong and show unity. People need to learn the difference between freedom of speech and treason. Between freedom of speech and slander, and defamation of character.

 

People need to learn the difference between freedom of speech and treason
That's exactly the problem I see in this country under the bush administration...thanks for demonstrating my point Anakin!

What happened to fair and balanced?
First of all, it's not on FOX news...or for that matter any form of media. And that is not the fault of the media, because as a wise man once said..."many of the truths we cling to, depend greatly on our own point of view." And rather then use the term "liberal" like it is an insult, simply think of it as allowing both sides of ANY topic to be freely expressed. BTW, "objective reporting" is just a MYTH, Myth...
...yes! (sorry couldn't pass up the Muppet movie reference)

The only thing debating whether or not to be there does now is show weakness to an enemy when we need to be strong and show unity
Part of what makes democracy great is the freedom to question our leaders; once that's taken away...even under the guise of "Homeland Security" (could we sound anymore Aryan?) then we're becoming the very thing we supposedly are fighting against.

I had the chance to interview some people (who had lived through WWII) and I asked "do you think this country could ever rally together, like after Pearl Harbor?"...the answer was a resounding NO! After 9/11 I asked them if they'd changed their mind...and the answer was still no; because (in their view) our country has become so factioned into so many different groups...there is not enough common ground anymore.

One of the things that needs to be cleared up is that there is a difference between wanting Saddam removed...and how the bush Administration went about it. Howard Dean is about to unveil his foriegn policy...and one of the things I he is right on in that: "The removal of Saddam Hussein was accomplished in the wrong way, at the wrong time, with inadequate planning, insufficient help and at unbelievable cost." It is not a question of whether he should have been removed, but instead how "during the Cold War the United States was admired by people around the world, but now America is despised because of Bush."

 

I want to make a comment about not finding the weapons of mass destruction yet. It really irks the heck out of me that Americans are so darn impatient. Do you realize how big Iraq is? It is the size of Texas. There is no way on God's green earth that we are going to find everything yet, there's just so much ground to cover. Also, take into account the fact that it is ver likely that a lot of the weapons were destroyed before we came in.Also, some of it may be hidden in other areas of the Middle East where we can't exactly just walk in and and look around without an international incident. How many times does Bush have to repeat have patience, this will take time. Heck, people are still finding weaopons such as bombs left over from WWII. So give it some time and let them do it right.

 

Actually, I am French and used to despise American politics because of Bill Clinton... I am learning to appreciate american politics a little more thanks to Mr. Bush (even if I don't agree whith everything he did so far).

 

I also agree with Ludo, AJ, Jason and Brandon! You guys are right and you rock!
I am also really glad to see Hussein under capture. We have one awesome army and an awesome president! I love you George Bush!

 

Don't forget Neil!

 

even if I don't agree with everything he did so far
Unfortunatly, in recent months...voicing disagreement with this administration has been translated into "treason"
((cues Imperial March))

Like I said, Saddam needed to be brought to justice...just not sure Bush is the man who is capable of doing the job properly. If this whole thing was about the "tried to kill my dad" thing...I'd rather have put the 2 of them in Caesars Palace and go at it. Rather then waste millions of dollars and hundreds of lives.

 

Oh please, dump the dramatic big brother nonsense. No one is going to come and get you in the night because you are bleeding heart liberal. You can get a head start and start making your aluminum foil hat now.... That way when the government discovers your deviant viewpoint, they wont use their mind control on you to make you hijack a plane....

Anyone can make an unfounded statement such as the ones you have made. Its the same sort of thing liberals have gotten away with for years. No one reports this senator from washington who basically implies Bush has all the terrorists locked up and will "pretend to capture them" when his ratings need a boost. or your candidate Dean who implies that Bush was complicit in the 9/11 attacks. DEAR GOD! do you have any idea what the media would do if someone said that about a liberal? If I said Tom Daschle donated money to Al Qaida or something like that, even if there was well documented and indisputable evidence of such a thing, I would suddently be a child molesting, racist, communist, drug addict, anti-semitic, war hawk, opressive, big brother type.

Obviously members of one political party are simply allowed to make up statements, generalizations and outright lies to impune the character of good men. Whereas anyone not a member of their "club" could have all the evidence in the world of wrongdoing, but no one will ever hear about it because of who controls the media in this country.

What I really want to know is where the hell was Susan Surandon and the rest of you left wingers when Bill Clinton was tomahawking the middle east into the stone age to take the focus off his sexually deviant and immoral behavior? No, lets fire off a few billion dollars in cruise missiles, bomb some aspirin factories. No, no one cares then. But depose a child murdering rapist leader of a regime that has used Weapons of mass destruction on his own people? Oh dear god no! We cant have that! The man Gassed his own people! WMD RIGHT THERE!!!! WHY IS THIS BEING DEBATED?!??! Hundreds of thousands were killed by iraqi chemical weapons.... explain to me how there are no WMD? This is a SUBSTATIATED FACT. Bill Clinton did the exact same thing in Bosnia. Ethnic cleansing was happening in Iraq. But because these people dont share our western european background, their lives are obviously not worth saving, right?
Oh, you say, but Bill had the Germans on his side! And the Russians! That makes it ok then, I see. Because the international community at large isnt owed money by a country, then its ok to interfere with their internal politics. But Saddam was doing the exact same thing, killing millions. You people act like we didnt wait, we waited 14 years! How many more resolutions would this man be allowed to break before the UN finally says, well... gee.... I guess hes just going to break the rules we make up....
Its like making rules for a child then not punishing them when they are broken... Whats the incentive here?
Well, it was different you say, Clinton didnt send troops in! No, our national guard was in Bosnia, our planes flew more sorties than any other country, our soldiers lives were at risk then too.
The fact is that the Western mindset is too weak and inflexible. Its incapable of concieving of war without ending. No peace treaty will stop suicide bombers or terrorists. Wiping them out will. They want to give their lives? Fine. Dig a hole, line em up, fire away. Does the idea of wholesale slaughter turn your stomach? Well, what was going on in Iraq the last 30 years? The only way to deal with a bully is to hit them and hit them hard. If we know where someone is that would do harm to this country if they get the chance, then we need to get them first. Thats what the presidents job is. How about this one for you, documented fact. The CIA located Osama bin Laden. The information was time sensitive, the call for confirmation was made, guess who didnt take the call because he was out Golfing? Good Ole Billy Clinton. Thats a fact. The presidents job above all else is to protect the lives of his people. S

 

There really is no point in arguing when one side argues using fact and the other completely ignores fact and attempts to argue from emotion. In a political (or any) debate the one who is using emotion sounds great until they are forced to argue against straight up fact. This is why a liberal call in talk show would never work, as soon as a REAL question is asked it would all break down. In this particular venue it is very easy to ignore facts or certain statements and only argue points you have an emotional response too.

This debate is going nowhere, it COULD continue on forever, but we will let time figure the winner here by waiting to see what the ultimate result of what is going on in Iraq is. We will see who is standing on the wrong side of history.

 

Obviously members of one political party are simply allowed to make up statements, generalizations and outright lies to impune the character of good men.
Welcome to the other side of the fence! BOTH sides are guilty of resorting to those kinds of childish behaviors in the name of politics. And by comparision, I don't recall Chelsey Clinton doing anything to warrent being called "a whore" (by conservative groups) in comparision to the Bush twins' antics. Find something that she did wrong...and possibly get past this double standard.

Wiping them out will
Speaking about emotion...proposing genocide is typically not allowed here on the boards, so you'd better calm down before you go ranting like this.

 

if you're going to quote me, do so in context and include my entire statement.

"No peace treaty will stop suicide bombers or terrorists. Wiping them out will. "

So you would view killing terrorists and suicide bombers as genocide? Last time I checked, they dont exactly abide by peace treaties. The only way to get rid of them, is to go in, find them, and get rid of them. I'm not implying some sort of ethnic cleansing, if you will read my statements you would see that. I'm saying, in this war the only way to win is to kill terrorists. If theres something wrong with wishing death upon those who would kill the innocent, I'm having trouble understanding you. Genocide is what Saddam was doing. What we are doing is a war. In war, you kill the enemy. In this particular war its a group of extremists who think strapping a bomb to themselves and blowing up a random group of people is a military success. Here's another example... This is your statement, unsupported though it may have been, in its completeness, not taken out of context.

"Unfortunatly, in recent months...voicing disagreement with this administration has been translated into "treason"
((cues Imperial March)) "
How is that different from your not-so-veiled threat when you just said I was ranting and supportive of genocide? I merely made a statement, which you misquoted and misused to support your own viewpoint. You might as well edit your post to say: Disagreeing with the RSA is not allowed and will result in being banned. Especially when you support your arguments logically, rather than make blanket statements unsupported by facts.

I've never heard anyone call Chelsea Clinton a whore, nor do I know her or anything about her. Does she sleep with people for money? If so then yes, shes a whore. If the Bush sisters did something, I havent heard of anything except their drinking, then thats fine, call them drunkards. You would be justified. I have no objection to a statement made with supporting evidence. I also fail to see how his children have something to do with the present discussion. I didnt vote for the Bush Sisters. I voted for their dad. As far as I know the Bush kids dont have an active role in our foreign policy.

 

While I was thrilled to hear that Saddam was captured, I still have to stop and wonder where Osama Bin Laden is. Is he dead and they are just using voice recordings from the past? Is he alive and biding his time? Is his son trying to impersonate him to continue in his footsteps?

I agree that Saddam had to be removed from power. I don't think we originally were using the correct reasons for going in. I do believe that we should have gone in for the sake of the various Iraqi citizens to free them from Saddam's genocidal actions. Pure and simple, he is more of a middle-eastern version of Hitler than strictly a dictatorial president.

My opinion is that some of what Bush has done has been very good. In the aftermath of 9-11, he really did what he could to keep the country from falling into chaos. If anything, he managed to at least keep the economy from full blown fallout. He also gave the country a focus upon rebuilding and recovery instead of wallowing in grief and suffering. He did point out that there is a time for grief but that there is also a time to move on and to secure a better tomorrow. His tax cuts have definitely been something that has needed to happen for many years now.

I worry about all the accussations against people about being anti-American for making their protests against the war though. That is part of the beauty of having a free country. That ability to say," I don't like the way that guy's running this country!", is a right well worth preserving.

Does that mean that we should allow people the ability to flagrantly burn flags? Pardon my language, but Hell no! There are appropriate conditions in which burning a flag is actually an honorable thing to do, but to do so because you don't like the system or the governmental decisions is just an abuse of the freedoms we have.

If you hate the system and/or decisions by the government so much, work to change it. That is why we vote. That is why we have the freedoms we have. If you don't like those freedoms and don't want to do something to change the way things are, go somewhere else.

How do I lean politically? I will vote for the person that I think will do the country the least amount of harm and hopefully the most good. In the next election, I'll be using all the information that I can get my hands on to make some type of sound judgment.

Again, please forgive me for using stong language when it comes to flag burning. Many of my family members fought and died for this country and that flag. My ancestors helped to found this country, one of them being one General, and afterwards President, George Washington. I'll not tolerate "citizens" of our nation disgracing us all and making a mockery of what so many have fought and died for to make for us a free country.