World War II Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Fluke_Groundwalker, Oct 30, 2001.

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  1. Fluke_Groundwalker Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2001
    star 5
    Come here to discuss whatever you'd like about World War II.

    But no flaming!! I created this thread, and if I deem something inappropriate, I won't hesitate to lock it.

    Anyway, let's not be all gloomy. Let's get to the discussion!!

    ***

    I'd like to discuss the events surrounding the Pearl Harbor attack. Frankly, I think FDR knew of the impending attacks, yet ignored them. He wanted to enter the war. He was so power hungry, he wanted to set up a communist-like country.

    ***

    There, that's a good way to start a discussion.
  2. ktwsolo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2001
    star 4
    I think your views of FDR are extremely unfounded. How's that for a start?
  3. Obey Wann Former RMFF CR & SW Region RSA

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2000
    star 6
    :lol

    I doubt he wanted to start a communist country, but I do think he knew about it.


    Americans don't like to go to war, but piss us off, and we'll kick your @$$. He knew that and knew that if we got our nose bloody, we'd fight with a vengeance.
  4. Fluke_Groundwalker Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2001
    star 5
    I didn't say a "communist country," I said "a communist-like country." What I mean is that he wanted to give all the power to the Executive branch. But that really doesn't have to with World War II.

    ***

    Anyway, why do you think that FDR never told anyone about the attacks??
  5. ktwsolo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2001
    star 4
    Because he didn't want to scare people without knowing for certain that they were going to happen.
  6. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    I highly doubt he knew attack was so imminent. Approaching, yes, but he didn't set our base and soldiers up to die.

    Everyone points to the Aircraft Carriers being outside of Pearl Harbor before the attack as a smoking gun...I dispute this. Why? Because naval commanders didn't even know that naval air power would be decisive until the Japanese attack. They still thought the battleship was the decisive force in the pacific, and there is no way FDR or our military commanders would've just thrown out our best weapons. You don't get far in chess sacrificing your Queen...
  7. Sate_Pestage Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2001
    star 4
    I have always thought that FRD knew about the attack as well. He wanted to get involved in WW2 but he knew that Americans did not want to send their boys into a war that did not involve them.
    WW2 was probably one of the most important events in the worlds history...can you imagine what would have happened if the US stayed out of it!?
    FDR was aware of the impending attack but, he choose to ignore it because the US had to enter this war.
  8. DarthNut Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 1999
    star 6
    yes, I agree he knew something was going to happen. Did he know exactly what was going to happen? I don't know, and I'm not sure if we ever will.

    DarthNut,
    the nuttiest guy around.
  9. Spiderdevil Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2000
    star 4
    Even if he did know about the attack beforehand, you guys make it sound like such an easy decision to not tell the American people. Can you imagine how much he must have wrestled with that question if he had impending knowledge of the attack?
  10. Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 5
    The USA could never have stayed out of WW2. The Nazi's had plans to attack America after they had taken care of Russia. There was already a descrete sea war going on between the US and Germany, as American and German forces had fired upon each other while the Us was helping protect North Atlantic convoys.

    The US was always going to be part of that war. The Japanese just made it easier to sell it to the American people.
  11. Lord Bane Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 26, 1999
    star 5
    "The Nazi's had plans to attack America after they had taken care of Russia."

    PPOR

    I took an advanced course on Hitler and Nazi Germany last year, and one of the main thigns said was Germany was not out to get America, at least not in Hitler's life. Sure, they were lining up allies in other nations, but simply for defense purposes, buffers like Poland and Cuba.
  12. Spiderdevil Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2000
    star 4
    Bane, do you remember the huge debate we had about this freshman year after watching Saving Private Ryan? Where we discussed whether or not Hitler would have taken North America if successful in Europe and Asia?
  13. G-FETT Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2001
    star 7
    First off can I say what a FANTASTIC idea the Senate is.

    I don't know if FDR knew about the impending attack, but as a British person, we are always eternaly gratefull, of America entering WWII.
    At the time, we had faced YEARS of bombing, many of our greatest cities had been reduced to rubble. Think WTC and multiply by 100.
    The blitz had almost (but not quite) broken us. Certainly if we had gone on, on our own, for much longer, we probably wouldn't have lasted all that much longer.
    If we had been defeated, Hitler would have controlled the whole of Europe.
    He would not have stopped there, he would, sooner or later have tried to take on America.
    FDR probably knew this, and realised that at some point it was inevitable that America and Germany would HAVE to go to war. He probably thought it was better to do it while Britain was still free.
    That brave decision helped to save my country.
    It also helped to cement the special relationship between Britain and America.
    A relationship that has produced 50 years of general peace. A relationship that even today is still in place.
    Nobody in America can doubt Britain's absolute backing of the war on terrorism.
    We will be with you until the end.
    FDR and Curchill started this relationship, and we should thank them both in our prayer's.
  14. Lord Bane Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 26, 1999
    star 5
    I do. I remember Addie being a yahoo about it and rambling off facts that aren't true.
  15. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    Hear, Hear. The History of the Blitz and the Battle of Britain are truly compelling, and Churchill was like Lincoln and other leaders in world history...the absolute right man at the right time in the right place.


    Oh, while we're at it...."FDR knew the attack was going to happen, and intentionally did nothing" people: PPOR
  16. Ghost_of_Caesar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2000
    star 4
    Urak-Hai, PPOR please.

    Hitler had no desire to get into a war with Britain. Why would he have wanted a war with America if he had known what would happen? Hitler's causes for war are many, the primary two being lust for rebuilding Germany's glorious past and lebensraum. If he had any desire to fight a war against Britain, why did he send his right hand man, Rudolph Hess, on a mission to seek an alliance between Germany and Britain? Why do you think he held off bombing British forces at Dunkirk?

    It was only after Hess was tossed in the Tower of London, that plans for Operation Sealion went ahead, not to mention an escalation in the Battle of the Atlantic. Certainly, suppression of supplies to Britain were a part of Germany's early success, but a very small one until after Britain's rebuttal. And certainly, American vessels were sunk by German U-Boats prior to America's entry into the war, but they were not a reason why America entered the war.

    Besides, what could Germany have done to America? In a real sense, absolutely nothing. And if Britain had fallen, America could have done nothing against Germany, especially with no forward operating base. Neither had the capability to invade the other.

    As for Pearl Harbour, no-one can say exactly why the leaders at the time did what they. Some people say that Churchill somehow found out about the planned attack, and neglected to inform FDR in order to shock America into fully gearing up. Do know that Churchill was indeed capable of pulling such a stunt - the bombing raid on Coventry proves it. He withheld information that the Germans were going to attack Coventry because advising people would have meant compromising the fact that the Brits had broken the Enigma code. Whether Churchill actually knew of the impending attack on Pearl is the question.
  17. Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 5
    Wow, my first PPOR.

    I read it in "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William shirer. I can't quote the passage because I don't have the book with me, but basically Hitler had made plans to fight a war with America way before the US entered the war.
  18. Lord Bane Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 26, 1999
    star 5
    If he had any desire to fight a war against Britain, why did he send his right hand man, Rudolph Hess, on a mission to seek an alliance between Germany and Britain?

    Actually, Hess ran off without Hitler's permission. It was covered up.

    Why do you think he held off bombing British forces at Dunkirk?

    The weather was atrocious, for one thing. The planes would be in as much danger as the Allied soliders. The tanks couldn't get close because of the marshy ground. The Allies got very lucky.
  19. Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 5
    Judging by Hitler's reaction I don't think he was part of any plan to send Hess to England.

    Ok - here's a question. Do you think that Russia could have defeated Germany on it's own without the second front created by the allies in 1944?

  20. Sate_Pestage Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2001
    star 4
    Of course the US was going to war regardless of Pearl Harbor...but like you said FDR had to sell it to the Americans...and what better than an attack on our soil!

    Im not sure if the Russians could have!
  21. Ghost_of_Caesar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2000
    star 4
    Not quite correct. The Panzer divisions were held back on orders from Hitler. The honour of wiping out the British forces was given to the Luftwaffe and the infantry. Allied air cover over Dunkirk assured a decent air defence, and the British Expeditionary Force was geared towards defending against infantry. The success of blitzkrieg depended on fast movement by armour and the supporting panzergrenadiers.

    The weather was bad for flying, granted, but that didn't the Luftwaffe from grinding their teeth on the RAF Fighter Command over Dunkirk. The ground may have been swampy, but that didn't stop the Panzer Divisions from successfully mounting attacks through other supposedly unsuitable terrain. The point is the attack plans were altered on Hitler's orders.

    If he so wanted, the BEF could have been crushed and resistance by Allied forces elsewhere would have been substantially reduced. It was only later, after the Battle of Britain had commenced that the war started to turn nasty, on both sides.

    As for Hess, Hitler had a method for dealing with traitors. The traitor would be dealt with in an extreme manner if possible, and his or her family would also be dealt with harshly. If Hess ran without Hitler's blessing (making him a traitor to the Reich) why was his family treated well after he was captured?
  22. Ghost_of_Caesar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2000
    star 4
    Okay, now my response to Urak-Hai's second question -

    Yes, I believe Russia would have resoundly defeated Germany even without the assistance of a second front being opened by America and Britain.

    This has its roots in the early stages of Operation Barbarossa. At first, the Germany Army had resounding success, getting to within 100 miles of Leningrad in the north by the end of July, within a similar of Moscow by the same time, and having occupied vast amounts of the south western area of the Soviet Union. However, by this time, due to simple wear and tear on the equipment, the armies needed to stop for a short time to rest and repair.

    By the time they were ready to move again, Hitler interfered and ordered that Army Group North be reinforced from Group Centre and go after Leningrad, while the same was to happen for Army Group South for their push towards the Caucasus and Stalingrad. By the time Hitler decided to push on Moscow, the Russians had reinforced and winter had set in. Hence the failure, due to acutely harsh weather conditions, to take Moscow occured.

    Fast forward a year to the Battle of Stalingrad, and Hitler steadfastly refuses, against the advice of the on scene commander and virtually all of the Army High Command, to abandon Stalingrad for a better defensive position from which to lauch further attacks. This leads to the capitulation of 6th Army, which rips the guts out of Army Group South, and ruins any plans to take the southern oil fields beyond the Don basin.

    The next big play is the Battle of Kursk, which to this day still rates as the greatest confrontation of two purely armoured forces, with upwards of 6000 tanks on both sides coming out to play. Needless to say, the Russians won, due primarily to Hitler's delays and vacillation and the fact that the Russians had advance warning of Operation Citadel.

    Anyway, due completely to Hitler's lack of decisiveness, and Stalin's complete iron fist rule of the Red Army, along the freedom of movement granted to the likes of Zhulov and Rokossovskiy, the Red Army would have crushed the Wehrmacht in the east eventually. It may have taken a bit longer, but it would have happened.
  23. Lord Bane Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 26, 1999
    star 5
    Hess didn't flee for sanctuary, he tried to work out a shaky peace. I need to get Spiderdevil in here; he was in that class too. Maybe he has the notes...
  24. TC517 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2001
    star 4
    Ah. I like WWII.
    As far as the Russia question, I believe Russia would have taken Germany without us. This probably would have taken at least a year longer, but they would have done it.

    Two weeks after D-Day, the Russians started one of the most succesful strikes in the war which took them all the way to Berlin.
  25. CmdrMitthrawnuruodo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 1, 2000
    star 6
    The Russian Winter, bitter and harsh, I say is what did the Germans in. But thats my opinion.


    Didn't the Germans like try to send a message to Mexico or something. I know it invovled Germany, Mexico, and America and a possible attack. Or something. Anyway, all I know is that on my mothers side of the family, her relatives were spies to watch Mexico for any German activity.
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