Clone Wars Would Ahsoka have been made a Knight if she came back?

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Vialco, Jun 26, 2014.

  1. Vialco Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    At the end of The Wrong Jedi, Ki-Adi-Mundi tells Ahsoka that her resolve and determination to prove her innocence was the true sign of a Jedi Knight. Mace Windu follows up with that by saying that the whole ordeal was actually her great trial.

    If Ahsoka had accepted the Council’s offer and returned to the Jedi Order, would they have made her a Jedi Knight? It certainly sounds like it. Ki-Adi-Mundi refers to her actions being truly characteristic of a Jedi Knight. In addition, Mace Windu says that she passed her Great Trial, which is very similar to the trials that Jedi Apprentices have to undertake in order to achieve their Knighthood.

    I think that if Ahsoka had accepted her braid back, they would have welcomed her back into the Order, and shortly after, officially knighted her. On a similar note, if Ahsoka had become a Jedi Knight, that would theoretically have made Anakin a Jedi Master, which would explain why he’s so bent out of shape in ROTS about not being made a Master, since he was so close to being made one before.

    Any thoughts on how Ahsoka might have been made a Knight at such a young age? Or was Mace just trying to lure Ahsoka back into the Order, and would have immediately reneged on any vague promises, much like he did with Anakin and not making him a Master.
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  2. Darth Valkyrus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 4
    Hard to say. Anakin himself was made a knight at 19. In TPM Obi-Wan was in his mid 20s and still a Padawan.

    It may be that Anakin was knighted so young because the council were so overawed by the idea of "Teh Chozen Wun!!! (ooh! ah!)" It's the fulfillment of prophecy damn it! Get him knighted up quick!

    Or it may be that he was knighted earlier because of the pressures of wartime. The war had begun, though only just, when he was knighted. On the contrary Obi-Wan was knighted in peacetime. Maybe they started rushing padawans to knighthood earlier than they otherwise would have done, due to wartime demands.

    It may also be based on his power and skill. Which may have been much better than Obi-Wan's at that age. Certainly his raw measurable "Force potential" by way of midichlorian count was off the chart, but how that relates to the overall "powerfulness" of a Jedi has never really been that clear.

    With those points in mind...

    Point 1 obviously has no bearing on Ahsoka.

    Point 2 would definitely have bearing - the same wartime pressures are on, and are in fact even more dire and urgent now, 3 years into a relentless grinding total war, than they were when it had just started and everything on the GR side was still relatively fresh and untapped (as was the case when Anakin was knighted).

    Point 3 is kinda an unknown quality. Ahsoka was supposedly the most advanced Padawan they had available when she was apprenticed to Anakin, but whether that was a reflection of her Force potential being possibly higher than average, or whether it to do with technical skill and a better than average ability to learn, is not really clarified.

    Ahsoka was 17 IIRC at the time she left the order. Two years younger than Anakin was when he was knighted.

    It's interesting IMHO to speculate how her staying might have affected Anakin's path. Would it have been as easy for Palpatine to turn him to the Dark Side? Would he have still had the nightmares about Padme? Would he even have gotten Padme pregnant? It's interesting that ROTS is about a pregnancy's length after Ahsoka walked down the steps of the Jedi Temple. Maybe in his depression after she left, he became careless and went unprotected a lot with Padme, thus the pregnancy.

    He might have stayed on the light side longer, fallen to the Dark Side in another way. And if so, would the war still have ended when it did, or would it have been kept going somehow by Palpatine in an attempt to line up the war's end and Anakin's turn later on? And how would Ahsoka have fared in all of this? Would she have died somehow? Or would she possibly have ended up turning to the Dark Side with her master? I imagine Palpatine wouldn't want that, since he'd worry about Vader's loyalty to Ahsoka (or whatever she'd call herself then) outweight his loyalty to him, and that Vader and Ahsoka might try taking Palps together... it's the Sith way and all that.

    TLDR version: I don't know if she would have been knighted. She might have been, but then again she might not. The rest of the post was just a stream of thought spewed from my brain onto the internet.
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  3. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    If Ahsoka was to be made a Jedi Knight, it wouldn't have anything to do with the Jedi Council, because they're just character-less cardboard cutouts to be used by the people at TCW. So, whatever the Council would do, or should do, is really irrelevant to what the team at TCW would have them do.

    Having your padawan knighted does not make one a Jedi Master. I'm not sure where people are getting this, but I've come across it many times before. Despite all the Star Wars material I've consumed, I'm not familiar with anything that says having a padawan knighted grants one a promotion to Jedi Master. Maybe it's one of those nonsensical Jedi sourcebooks that I refuse to buy because they're trash and intentional trolling by the writers.

    And...of course Ahsoka would set the record for youngest Jedi Knight, she's Ahsoka. Not a Mary Sue, though.


    Could you specify on this vague promise Mace made to Anakin?
  4. The Shadow Emperor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2012
    star 4
    Kind of off-topic, but it just occurred to me how few Jedi Knights there were in the show. Off the top of my head I can think of Anakin, Nadhar Vebb, and...? The rest were all either Jedi Masters or Padawans.
  5. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6

    In the EU, training several Padawans to Knighthood is the most common path to Mastery:

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Master
  6. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7

    I don't know if she would have been knighted immediately, but probably pretty soon after. They were in the middle of a war, it's not uncommon for soldiers to accelerate in rank more quickly during wartime even in our world, and...yeah, because she's Ahsoka.

    According to Karen Miller's novels, Anakin was knighted within weeks of Geonosis, over Obi-Wan's protests, with the Council using the war and Anakin's skill as a reason.

    But no, Anakin would not have automatically achieved Master status, and he was bent out of shape over not being made a Master in ROTS because, one, he didn't get his way after Palpatine promised him he would, and two, he wanted access to some secret Masters-only archive that allegedly would help him learn immortality. Or something. That was per the ROTS novelization, which also said that Anakin stopped sleeping at night and spent nights in the Temple archives doing research, then finding out that until he got that magical Master's key, he wasn't going to learn anything.

    Canon or not, that's a better story than what we got in the movie, but I digress.

    I don't think Mace was holding a proverbial carrot in front of Ahsoka to get her to come back. I think what he said to her can be taken almost literally. He acknowledged that she went through a great trial, and the rest of his speech was a Mace-Windu-style "This should have never happened to you, and for my part in it...my bad." Same with Mundi.

    And Mace never made any promises to Anakin. The Jedi Council had been put under the direct authority of the Chancellor just before that scene, when they had previous been under the Senate's authority. Palpatine then ordered them to put Anakin on the Council as his personal representative, and they had little if any choice but to do what Palpatine told them. They decided to make the best of the situation (in their eyes) by asking Anakin to keep an eye on Palpatine for them. But Mace never said that Anakin would be made a Master; Anakin had the idea in his mind that the status would be automatically his. And he may have had reason to do so, as no one had been put on the Council without being given the rank--but no one had ever been put on the Council on the Chancellor's orders either. As usual, Anakin did not think things through. That has nothing to do with Mace.
  7. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5

    It's good to have on the resume, that's all. It's not just "you trained several Padawans, you're now a Master", otherwise it wouldn't need to be given by the High Council, it would just be an instant promotion once the task (of training padawans) was completed without need for any judgment, agreement, or anything else involving anyone. (or you could just say you're a Master and dare any to dispute it, as the hilarious troll C'baoth did)
    Last edited by CT-867-5309, Jun 26, 2014
  8. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Yeah. C'baoth told the Council that they were privileged to kiss his ass.

    Anakin waited around for the Council to kiss his ass and then whined when it didn't happen.
  9. Darth Valkyrus Force Ghost

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    Apr 12, 2013
    star 4
    Almost sounds like a Klingon way of ranking up. Or a 17th century pirate.

    Without the whole "killing the guy above you to claim his rank" business.
  10. Vorax Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2014
    star 4
    Presumably the Jedi Knight concept follows the European Knight concept to some extent, they were religious warriors and some almost monk or priest like that followed a leader, a Pope like figure. The Padawan would serve at his or her masters side learning and practicing from page boy to squire. Not all squires were made knights through an elaborate ceremony as some were awarded knighthood on the battlefield. The force itself was Lucas mixing various real world religions together and combing it Dune, Flash Gordon, Metropolis and a whatever else he was inspired from or derivative of. Religion in Star Wars seems available only to the Jedi Knights or Sith or some strange alien non human cults on plants created for the cartoon, and its more physically portrayed as there very few if any episodes focused on religious texts, ceremonies or theology in general and what not and I'm not talking about some kids that go off to find a crystal and assemble it with the aid of a droid professor.
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  11. Vialco Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
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    Obi-Wan trained Anakin to Knighthood and was made a Jedi Master and was placed on the Jedi Council. Training an apprentice to knighthood is all it takes to become a Jedi Master, at least according to the films, which are the only canon now along with TCW.
  12. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    There is no indication in the films that he was given Mastery and put on the Council precisely because he trained Anakin. It's safe to assume that there were many other factors involved.
  13. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Yeah, basically this. They weren't planning on Knighting her (I don't think); things would've gone back to exactly the way they were. Anakin would've been her Master, Ahsoka would've still been a Padawan, and they would've pretended the whole thing never happened. Mace and Mundi were doing an awkward "Uh...we're not wrong much, so...yeah, my bad" kind of thing.

    But this whole conversation makes me remember how stupid it was that they even believed Ahsoka was guilty in the first place, because she and Anakin were put on the investigation specifically because they couldn't have done it!
  14. thejeditraitor Force Ghost

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    Aug 19, 2003
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  15. GGrievous Force Ghost

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    Nov 6, 2005
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    Ahsoka was practically a Knight Grand Master the moment she stepped into TCW.
    Last edited by GGrievous, Jun 26, 2014
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  16. Vialco Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
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    I disagree. Anakin and Obi-Wan are Jedi Apprentice and Jedi Knight in AOTC and then are Jedi Knight and Jedi Master in ROTS. Nothing has changed aside from their status, and it's safe to assume that Obi-Wan was made a Jedi Master after he successfully trained Anakin to be a Jedi Knight. There are no other major accomplishments in the films that seem to be a basis for making a Jedi Knight into a Jedi Master. The ability of pass on what you have learned is an integral part of being a Jedi, and it is enough to make a Knight into a Master. Either way, the claim about a Knight having to train several apprentices to be a Master is proven false, as Obi-Wan only trained Anakin and became a Master and member of the Council after Anakin was Knighted. There are no other major accomplishments that Obi-Wan has-he didn't even manage to kill Darth Maul :p
  17. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Where are you getting this from?

    There is literally nothing in the movies about what is required to make a Knight into a Master. For all the viewer knows, Jedi Knights must learn the correct recipe for Yoda's gruel and be able to eat it without gagging. If we try hard enough, we could pull evidence from ESB for that one.

    There is no information about trials, which we could probably assume are individualized, as a trial to one person might be a cakewalk to another. The only information we have on qualities that the Council looked for in members included strict adherence to the Code (hence Qui-Gon not being on the Council, no rogues allowed) and maturity (hence why Anakin had about as much of a shot at Council membership as Jar-Jar Binks...hell, probably less).

    I'm not sure there's a "must train a certain number of Padawans" requirement either, but I see absolutely no evidence whatsoever that training one Padawan to knighthood automatically grants membership to the Master's Club, with its library key and good-quality Pinot Noir instead of rosé from a box.
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Jun 26, 2014
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  18. Darth Valkyrus Force Ghost

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    Apr 12, 2013
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    Maybe it was because he trained the prophecied Jedi Messiah to knighthood. That's gotta be worth something.

    And don't forget the council thought he was too old. And Yoda feared grave danger in his training. But hey presto! It looked like Obi-Wan had successfully trained him up and made a Jedi Knight out of him anyway. Bravo! Make that man a Master!
    Last edited by Darth Valkyrus, Jun 26, 2014
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  19. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I assumed that Obi-Wan was promoted due to his level-headed personality, his respect for the Code, and his wisdom; I think it would be a disservice to him if he got a Council seat for no other reason than he managed to get Anakin to Knighthood without pushing him out of a gunship.
  20. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Not every Master gets a Council seat. I could see Obi-Wan getting the seat on the Council due to his heroics in the Clone Wars, and also due to High Council members dying and a slot opening up.
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  21. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I thought he got his seat when Depa Billaba turned to the Dark Side.
  22. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5

    Yeah, I think Obi-Wan more likely was made a Master due to his embodiment of the Jedi ideal, not his training of the opposite of the Jedi ideal, Anakin Skywalker.

    "Good job, you trained a Jedi who throws temper tantrums, you are now a Jedi Master."
  23. Vorax Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2014
    star 4
    Kenobi always seemed like yes-man, even if he didnt agree with the council, I did not like his portrayal in the PT movies. I dont think he fought hard for Anakin when the Jedi were plotting against him in ROTS. A failed apprentice makes for a poor master.
  24. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    LOL wut? The Jedi were "plotting against" Anakin? By asking him to keep an eye on Palpatine?

    It's not like the Council wanted to know whether Palpatine wore briefs or boxers or how long his morning poop lasted.

    They wanted to make sure that Palpatine wasn't either a Sith Lord himself or under the influence of one.

    And they turned out to be right about Palpatine...but they're the bad guys?

    Yeah...it's all Obi-Wan's fault.

    Or...Anakin could have gotten the chip off his shoulder, shut the **** up, and kept an eye out for suspicious signs, like those statues that screamed "I am a Sith Lord!" in Palpatine's office.
  25. Togruta Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2010
    star 4
    I do think it would seem like the Council was trying too hard to apologize/ get her to stay if they knighted her right away. I think they only hinted that she would've been knighted. It's probably best that it stays vague.
    Last edited by Togruta, Jun 27, 2014