Clone Wars Would Ahsoka have been made a Knight if she came back?

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Vialco, Jun 26, 2014.

  1. Vorax Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2014
    star 4
    The finished product in ROTS, is that the Jedi did not trust him throughout the beginning of the movie, and in fact they were conspiring against him, Obi Wan tries weakly to back him but ultimately falls back into his place rather than risk losing is standing with Yoda and Windu & his place on the council.

    Yoda and Windu were not good masters or friends to say the least, they pretty much prejudged him, found him guilty upon suspicion and already forsaken him along with abandoned the whole
    prophecy" thing , they pretty much feared him and had no use for him. Obi-Wan himself was neither here nor there as a friend or master, he appears jealous of Skywalker and there was always some tension due to Padme and Skywalker and Kenobi were both egotistical and headstrong. All the while in AOTC it was Obi Wan that had questionable objections to Anakin and not Yoda or Windu and they were backing him. Not trusting him and alienating Anakin was the catalyst which finally drove Anakin away from the order, they were also setting him up by asking him to spy on the Chancellor, had they trusted him they wouldve made him a Master, this was an insult to him, they were taking out their anger on Anakin rather than challenging Palpatine directly. They do things Jedi should not do and against their own code, so they come off as hypocrites and passive aggressives .

    Anakin if you pay attention did not turn from from Sidious' temptation of abandoning Obi Wan onboard Grievous' ship, he said his fate with theirs to Palpatine's surprise and that was shortly after he attempted to gas up Anakin's head by justifying Anakin's doubt and remorse over killing Dooku. During the opera, Anakin rebutted Palpatine temptations and during the chamber meeting again refused his temptation. Windu refused Anakin the honor of aiding in the arrest of Palpatine which was a smack in his face and blatantly said he did not trust him flat out. Anakin was refusing to aid Palpatine during his fall at the hands of Windu, only when Windu again refused to honor the Jedi code by taking him prisoner and disregarding Anakin's plea as their was still information or value in keeping him alive did Anakin finally act by wounding Windu. He did not realize Palpatine was lying about being near death, by that time Anakin questions and shows remorse and a sense of loss as he was betrayed by Palpatine and Jedi. Probably no surprise Anakin by Mustafar wanted to get rid of Palpatine very soon and he was just mopping up all enemies of both the Sith and Jedi, he appears to see himself for himself by Mustafar. Obi showing with Padme ignated his hatred for the Jedi and felt padme brought him along to assassinate him and well Anakin already had murdered or killed many Jedi and youglings and there was a sense of self guilt, fear and point of no return.

    With Lucas' storytelling and finished PT movies, the council and Jedi were of dubious sanity, ethics and morality themselves I really cant blame Dooku or Anakin for turning out the way they did.
    Last edited by Vorax, Jun 27, 2014
  2. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    With very good reason.

    Again, where? You haven't demonstrated any sort of massive anti-Anakin conspiracy theory among the Council, you just keep stating this.

    Given his attitude and behavior, what reason did they have to trust him?

    "Because he's Anakin" or "because of the prophecy" was not enough.

    Anakin was certainly egotistical and headstrong, but I never saw that from Obi-Wan.

    And if there was tension due to Padme, which I never saw but I'm going to play along for a second--it was because Anakin was breaking the rules. He was not entitled to be married and be a Jedi.

    LOL, you are absolutely right. How dare they not put Anakin on a pedestal and allow him to do whatever the hell he wanted.

    And of course Anakin's attitude was always someone else's fault. He was under no obligation to grow the hell up and realize the galaxy did not revolve around him.

    Of course. Again, Anakin had absolutely no responsibility to behave like an adult. It was everyone else's responsibility to cater to his whims and assuage his ego.

    Oh, I can. But then again, I don't really think mass murder is an acceptable response in someone who is pissed off because he didn't get his way and didn't get sunshine blown up his ass the way he thought he should.
  3. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Honestly, let's get back on topic.
  4. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Yeah. Not sure how a thread on whether Ahsoka would have been knighted turned into a thread about how the Jedi were picking on Anakin but this isn't going anywhere good.

    And I'll own my part in that, but...I'm done.

    So...Ahsoka. Suffering a ridiculous trial under a kangaroo court enough to knight her or not?
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Jun 27, 2014
  5. Darth Valkyrus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 4
    IMHO if the council acted like they were going to knight Ahsoka on returning, and then she returned and then they turned around and were like "Mmmmmmm Nope!" well... I don't know how Ahsoka would react, but I'm pretty sure Anakin would be absolutely furious.

    I can imagine him striding back and forth in front of Padme, seething. "They lied to her! They lied to her like they lied to me! They're all liars and cowards and thieves!"
    Last edited by Darth Valkyrus, Jun 27, 2014
  6. Vorax Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2014
    star 4
    You're being over dramatic of what was said and your need to be convinced is your own problem... but you clearly weren't watching the same movies or in denial or both.

    Anakin was supposed to be the Messiah of the Jedi Order and Star Wars Universe(The Mortis episodes make this a fact and no longer fan speculation), the Jedi are both thrilled and fearful of this, first they preliminarily refuse Jinn to train the boy cause of his age and too much time living as a mortal(civilian), and only kinda relent when Jinn gives a defiant oath to train him anyway but wait a while until after his mission on Naboo to make another and more final ruling. This theme is carried along through each movie. But the Jedi made their decision in training him at the end of TPM even after breaking their own age rules and council decision, so they shouldve stuck with him and not doing a halfassed job of it, sometimes trusting him other times conspiring against him, thats bi-polar and hypocrites - but they end up never living up their choice and don't deal with a full deck. Anakin in the end is alone as the Jedi betrayed by never truly accepting him as one of them.


    Jedi are taken away from their family precisely to be raised and indoctrinated into the Jedi Order, that is also why they are forbidden to have sexual intercourse and offspring with other Jedi or non-force sensitives. The Jedi are watchful of the amount of Jedi are born and how. Force sensitives are not just regular people(which also means they need more work, and held to a higher standard and they are part of a religion ), they need to be trained not only psychically but mentally and spiritually they are capable of great good but also great destruction. There is a great deal of disciplane involved, otherwise such an overly powerful being, may not be spiritually or mentally stable, and not out've its own choice, these are great powers and the children born could have defects due to the midiclorians(their genetics) and the cosmic force which has angelic or demonic sides. Part of the reason for this is, if left alone the child may never learn how to manipulate the force and so will be more a mortal and will largely lead uneventful lives, but as part of the Order(which all force sensitives are picked up if born in the within the Republic) they will learn to use their powers for good and for the better of human civilization and for peace in the galaxy. The Sith would seek out younglings to be trained for the opposite of everything the Jedi stands for, for war not peace. So Anakin wanting to rescue his mother was not evil or darkside nor particularly un-Jedi, he did the human and humane thing to do which Padme was right in helping him make the right choice. The only thing he did wrong was disobey his Master following protocol but he did what a Jedi Knight should do protect the innocent and perform justice. Upon seeing his mother like that,But he was attached still to his former human life. Killing the Sand people, who were rapists, murders and essentially overall animals . I do not think any jury would convict him for war crimes, as bad circumstances were, he just saw his mother through the force( who was being brutalized) , finially found her in her state dying, and had he escaped with his moms body alive or dead, the Sandpeople - which also means the women and children - would be on the hunt after him and could further attack other human settlers(just as they always have).

    Tattooine doesnt have a standing police force or military, its a backwards planet with very little if any legit law and order, it is a mostly a slave planet, filled with murderous savages, gangsters and bloodsports. Some of that also wouldve effected Anakin's psyche as a child. But this was not a darkside fall, as Anakin was remorseful of the ordeal afterwards it was not something he was proud of himself doing which were signs he was still a Jedi on the right path yet even if he strayed.


    Don't know where you get acceptable, anyway, according to Lucas, with Anakin its acceptable for him to be redeemed after all he did and a now a Force Ghost(and in youthful form) along side Yoda and Obi Wan like the best of friends again. What I was saying before, is that judging from the Jedi(including Obi Wan) actions , I could not blame him for turning against the very order which he time and time again put his life on the line for and saved many lives and was outstanding Jedi Knight, often by himself he accomplished a great many things ordinary Jedi could not. What the Jedi did to him was marginalized , alienated and disenfranchised him, in short they betrayed him first. He remained loyal as he humanly could under the circumstances given, every one has a breaking point and he reached his. Anakin was a victim of the council's fears and mistrust against him as much if not more than Palpatine's games, and Jedi they should've known better. Anakin resisted Palpatine many times and chose the Jedi, while the Jedi otped to instead disregard him once more and place him house arrest (which was what Windu did to him just surprised he didnt ask him to hand over his lightsaber).

    And no, jedi are not murderers or executioners, they arent supposed to use their skils and lightsabers for attack or defenseless opponents and those asking for mercy. Windu broke the code and a Jedi is not supposed to, ever, once they do forever it will dominate their destiny and start them down the dark path. For all we know, Anakin was right in keeping him alive, there was some hidden and unseen threats against Padme's life which Anakin had premonitions about(and knowing Palpatine's use of ancient dark magiks and sith voodoo rituals which can manifest and influence things in the physical , metaphysical, astral/dream scapes so he was likely correct to fear for Padme's life) which Palpatine may of held the key to, by that time after learning of Palpatine being the Sith Lord and his assassination attempts on Padme's life through the years, Palpatine was worth more alive for intelligence' sake alone. The Jedi do not know what sought of plans Sidious had in case he was defeated or how far his treachery went in the Senate or more importantly the Military(Clone Troopers were programmed to kill Jedi). Had Sidious been killed the order 66 couldve went into default or put in by any number of Sidious' agents where the whatever was left of the Jedi could not stand against the combined might of Droid army and Clone Army and who knows what other darkside agents were skulking in the shadows waiting to take their place as the Sith are like a Hydra and they do not die so easily.


    Jedi arent really mere mortals anyway, they're more akin to mythological demi-gods and they often are plagued with many of their negative aspects, both human and godlike(The Force which has a good side and a bad, the light and the dark), once they lose control its hard for them to stop and darkside is like a vampire or parasite. What sets them apart from the Sith, is their code which is like the 10 commandments. Once they start breaking it they no longer become the chosen, they're the fallen. Which all the more reason the Jedi should've taken better care of their students and someone like Anakin whom they gave up on and likely never really liked as he was srota forced into training by Kenobi taking Jinn's last request. The Jedi failed Anakin as much if not honestly more so than Anakin failed the Jedi. The Jedi Order is a religious institution, not a martial police force, and codes arent guidelines to be discarded as Jedi are not above the law or their own code which was were Windu and Yoda ect failed big time. The CW also strongly lends credence to this, as the Jedi were losing, or lost their way completely even betrayed their own ethics by continuing the war essentially making themselves willing accomplices to the darkside - the Ahsoka acr and Yoda arcs of later seasons makes or tries to make this all very clear. The Jedi weren't doing good anymore, they were willing or unwilling participates in the darkside and serving a Dark Lord(a Devil) and lost their way by way of arrogance and hubris.
    Last edited by Vorax, Jun 27, 2014
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  7. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I have no doubt that he would have been furious if they didn't knight her, assuming that both he interpreted that conversation the way many viewers did, that she had passed her trials.

    I don't know how Ahsoka would react; I think she might be more accepting of not being knighted than Anakin would be.

    That's hard to say though.
  8. Vader'sGoodHand Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2014
    star 3
    Brava on starting this topic. I wondered the same thing as well once her story was finished(?). I think when they said that was her greatest trial etc, it was in essence a eloquent apology without apologizing. I don't think they would have rushed her into knighthood but were just hinting that she was close by passing one of her trials. If they would've knighted her it would've been because the Jedi were dropping like flies at that point.

    To speak on your other question in regards to if she would have stayed what would've happened to Anakin etc. I personally think she might've fallen to the dark side or left the Order if she found out about Anakin and Padme. If the "friend in need" arc he noticed that she is all hopped up on, well I think it's pretty clear, and totally dissuades her from falling darker into those feelings of jealousy and malice toward Stella and romantic feelings for the senator. Back to my point What if she did end up seeing that her Beloved Master was in love and married? I'm pretty sure she wouldn't trust him or what he taught her. That might be a stretch but she would be shaken for sure. Now this is just me adding another poker to the fire.

    This is why I hoped for a dark Anakin and Padawan Tano scenario. It would have been able to explore what they meant to each other and how could Ahsoka handle what he would have turned into. No other Padawan/Master pairing went through what those two went through. I think Anakin might not have fallen as quickly but I do think that Palpatine 100% had something to do with the whole Ahsoka getting framed bit. He used that to inch Anakin closer. if she would have come back Palpatine would've done something else to fall because she was clearly a threat to his plan.
  9. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Plo Koon does say "You have our most humble apologies" though.
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  10. Vader'sGoodHand Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2014
    star 3
    Great catch. But PLO Koon knew Ahsoka on a different level than. I still think it was more of an apology from them than them saying you say "yes" you become a knight instantly
  11. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    That's probably because Ahsoka has declared herself a Jedi Knight more than once, assaulted a guy and put her lightsaber to his throat for calling her a bit young to be a Jedi....and then becomes mature, responsible mother to a bunch of children.
  12. Togruta Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2010
    star 4
    I don't think Ahsoka would care much about not being made a Knight if she had stayed, and I think it would be too awkward, even for Anakin, to confront the Council and basically say "You guys were wrong, so make my Padawan a Knight already." There's no real standard or reason to think she would get Knighted after what happened and how she handled it.
  13. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    Even if she did get knighted, she would still leave the order.
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  14. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    @Vorax:

    Your block of text essentially only shows Anakin's views about being marginalized (which, BTW, is not the same as being betrayed). Honestly, Anakin may or may not have justification - none through some to a lot - for feeling that way, but the truth is, in the movies, we don't see enough of his life in ordinary circumstances to judge.

    Chosen One or not, Anakin was young and thus was not in a position to dictate to the Council or his master. Now, one can make the argument that his viewpoints should have been more carefully considered...but that doesn't seem to be anyone's argument here. One can get into quite a debate about "should Anakin be allowed to do all/everything he feels is right" and at the same time "is Anakin still too impulsive and headstrong to make all the rash decisions he's wanting to make."

    No, it was not wrong or evil to want to save his mother. It was not necessarily wrong to kill the guards in order to escape. It WAS wrong to kill everyone in a blind rage. Especially the children, whom I suspect no one can accuse of being complicit.

    As to the "lawless" planet: I'm sorry, apologies to those who vehemently disagree, but there are many elements of the "wild American west" in play here - the "savages" only controlled by the "decent folks" who must put down the savages in the name of civilization. (And yes, torturing Shmi was savage and wrong, so don't go there.) But the POV is entirely the "settlers."

    I believe limiting oneself to just one POV oversimplifies things.

    In short, Anakin's killing spree crossed a line somewhere during the massacre, even if perhaps in the beginning it could be considered justifiable.


    Great excuse for slaughtering the Jedi. :rolleyes: Oh, they were mean to me, it's only right I kill them.
    Still not a betrayal, IMHO.

    So making mistakes (they are human, not above making mistakes - whoops, forgot, they're supposed to be perfect and failed at that) and not allowing Anakin total freedom to do whatever he wants at any time because - well, he's Anakin, the Chosen One and thus merited different treatment - is total failure on their part, to be laid at their feet alone, but Anakin's own faults should be laid to rest at the feet of - anyone but himself.

    The truth is far more complicated than this simple reduction to "it's the Jedi's fault."
    Last edited by Valairy Scot, Jun 28, 2014
  15. Togruta Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2010
    star 4
    Can we please let the "Anakin was right/ Anakin was wrong" stuff go? Or at least incorporate it into what the topic is actually about..
    Last edited by Togruta, Jun 28, 2014
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  16. Cushing's Admirer Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 6
    Yes, I think she would've been knighted but it'd be a mistake. I'm glad she left.
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  17. thejeditraitor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 4
    one of my favorite things about the tcw is that she left. she can see the way the order is when no one else does. she's like the audience's eyes.
    Last edited by thejeditraitor, Jun 29, 2014
  18. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    "The audience's eyes"? LOL. Some of us saw the Jedi as worth keeping and saving.

    I know that Filoni and Co. wanted us to view Ahsoka as this enlightened person who left the Order because it was too corrupt and therefore beneath her, but if I was supposed to like and sympathize with Ahsoka, that was not the way to make it happen.

    I would have respected her more if she had stayed. I know she thought the Jedi had wronged her, and I'm sure they wish they could have seen what a farce of a trial that she was subjected to. But it would have been a sign of forgiveness on her part, a willingness to put a grudge behind her and move on. As much as she annoyed me the last three seasons, I would have really liked and respected her for doing that; it's a Jedi-like behavior (and a good one in real life as well, like most of the ideals that the Jedi strive for).
  19. Vilnu Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2013
    Ahsoka didn't have a grudge against the Order or think it was beneath her. Having been accused of a serious crime, expelled from the Order, hunted down and narrowly escaped a death sentence, she felt extremely conflicted, betrayed by and frustrated with the Jedi Council, and unable to deny the truth behind Barriss' sentiments, and needed to time away from the Order to try and regain a sense of perspective about the whole situation, and decide what would be right for her. The easy option would have been rejoining the Order and accepting the gratitude and apologies of the Council, which did not come across as being that genuine. Walking away, even for a short while, is the much harder option, especially as the Order has been her only home and family for at least a decade of her life.
  20. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    This topic has been discussed about 7438 times.

    Here is one link

    Here is another

    Oh yeah, and here too

    My opinion of her needing me-time can be found there.

    Back to her being knighted--would it have been a mistake? I don't know, certainly not more than knighting Anakin was.
  21. Cushing's Admirer Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 6
    It has nothing to do with a supposed agenda for me, I'm simply glad she had the sense to leave. Knighting her would've been erroneous anyway.
  22. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    That episode was probably the most agenda-backed of the show, other than Order 66.

    As far as knighting a 17-year-old...as I said, I don't know.
  23. Vorax Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2014
    star 4
    My block of text beats your nothing obviously, as neither of you offer any substance to the discussion and clearly do not understand the characters nor apparently watched the movies(its all we got regardless if they're clearly or well written or not) or CW series. A major point that escapes many people it looks like is that Anakin is not merely a Jedi anymore when he goes back to the chamber and sees Windu standing over Palpatine about to slay him, he's also a husband and soon to be father(again another reason why the Jedi should not have kids) that is also trying to save her life and live or lives of their unborn children. The fact will remain as so as well, it is NOT the Jedi way to kill a defenseless opponent regardless if he was Sith or not.

    For Ahsoka he Jedi were tempting , with bribery and promises of reward of title/rank, to lure Ahsoka back to the order while simultaneously also trying to absolve themselves of all blame and guilt by making it out was it was all the "Force's doing and out've their hands" and "they see it was all a test", they were liars and deceivers who could not accept full blame and their apology was as much to cover their own asses/ save face as it was a halfassed acknowledgment of wrong doing. But Jedi leaving the Order have been quite few, and her leaving the Order would The council members should of stepped down, resigned. She was already judged guilty upon suspicion. Plo Koon like Kenobi may harbored some personal doubt thoughts or made a few small comments here and there but they went along with the council( Who is the greater fool, the fool or the fool who follows him - this applies to the Jedi council) and pretty silent on the matter in lets see how this plays out and when it looked like she was about to officially found guilty in the farce show trial by Tarkin, they still remained silent. The only one that took a proactive and very active role(vocally and physically) in believing in her and having her back was Anakin. It would be fair to believe that Anakin failing in Ahsoka would of been used by the council against Anakin as they were all doubting and ready to have Yoda locked up during the Jinn visits(they even placed temple sentinels in his med room) and where they were also blaming him for Dooku's fall to the darkside by the assumption that master(Yoda) of been lured to the darkside whether or not he himself knew it. This signifies and means also that the Jedi themselves may not even know they have fallen to the Darkside, the awareness factor they may not be self conscious off - but this case it was not Yoda, it was the other members of the Council they were no longer in the light.

    If the council is ready to lock up and throwaway the key on their own leader, than Anakin is easy pickings. Yoda's whole thing at the end of the 6th season was that Darkside corrupted all events and the Jedi(that includes Windu) themselves had fallen to darkside for their active participation in the Clone Wars which were of the grand design of the Dark Lord. This also goes along with the comments in PT movies, with the Jedi's ability to use the force had greatly diminished(they were no longer in the light as still thought but in the dark), they were losing or lost themselves in the darkness.

    Anakin's fall was as much a failure of the Jedi as it was his own inner conflict torn between man and god and good and evil(the Jedi/Force ). Lucas tried to convey this in the PT, he did not do such a great job, the CW series tried to add some depth to it all but this only came in the last seasons but too little too late. However it is clear Anakin's fall was part of a grander fall of the entire Jedi Order and the aged and Darkside corrupted Republic which they blindly served. Anakin would only take a more solo active role in the destroying the Jedi following his transformation in Vader, but the first half belonged to the Jedi themselves as much as Sidious or orchestrated events which the Jedi allowed themselves to follow.

    Yoda began to awake from the spell cast over the Jedi by the Sith, the Jedi were doomed by this time, and mainly out've of self destruction due to the Clone Wars, was too late for the Order but the Lightside would live on until its ready again to challenge the Darkside.

    Palpatine did not just want to destroy the Jedi, he wanted to break them and everything they stood for and he succeeded. On the small scale, same thing Maul did to Obi Wan, Sidious did to the entire Jedi Order as per the grand designs of Bane's Rule of Two.

    The Ahsoka episodes were also part of Anakin's situation found in ROTS , and thus relevant.
    Last edited by Vorax, Jun 29, 2014
  24. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
  25. Darth Valkyrus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 4
    She'd have been Grand Master of the Order before the end of the year.

    The Empire would never have gotten off the ground, the battle in the Senate now with Tano in place of Yoda, would have ended with her force-crushing Palpatine to the point where he initiated fusion.