main
side
curve

PT Would Anakin have fallen to the dark side if Qui-Gon had lived?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by GnastyGnas, Jan 8, 2018.

  1. GnastyGnas

    GnastyGnas Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Star Wars' interior plot arc throughout all six movies is a tale about accepting oneself, as well as others, for all of their human imperfections. If you look at the prequels, you see a very strict and repressed Jedi order. Jedi are not allowed to have attachments or families. They are also not allowed to recognize human emotions like fear or anger. In contrast, we also have a Sith/dark-side that is enslaved to these emotions. Sith allow their actions to be the will of their first impulses and insecurities, therefore their character is tainted in evil. It could be interpreted that Anakin falls to the dark side because of his understandable personal struggles being ignored and neglected by a repressed Jedi order understandably pre-occupied by one of the most crucial times for the Republic and galaxy. Anakin sees the dark side as a place where he might be able to be his full, human self as well as openly care for Padme and his family, but he knows it isn't entirely the correct path, which is why he is already suggesting over throwing Palpatine in Ep3. However, his frustration and insecurities, unleashed by the dark side suggest that even after over throwing Palpatine he would still be at the mercy of the dark side.

    This leads us to Luke. Luke is the most pivotal character in Star Wars because he shows Vader that you can be morally good, while at the same time being human and having attachments, anger and fear. Luke is attached to his friends and his father. He disobeys Yoda and Obi-Wan for them. He fights Vader with malice and anger when Vader mentions turning Leia. Luke also tries to murder the Emperor when he threatens the rebellion and Luke's friends. Vader sees all of this and tosses the Emperor, redeeming himself and fulfilling his destiny, saved by his son.

    Check this out -- Qui-Gon understands, or appears to understand all of the same stuff as Luke. It's clear from his actions in TPM that he keeps his distance from the Jedi council, while at the same time being a force very much for good, as well as being very wise and knowledgeable in the ways of the force and the light side. In TPM, Qui-Gon continuously explores the concept of "symbiotic circles" and the "living" force. It seems as though he is wise to something that the Jedi council seems blind to. It seems as though he is a well rounded force user of the light side, the same key that Luke was for Vader. This means that Anakin probably would have found exactly what he needed in Qui-Gon and never turned. I'm sure Anakin also would have felt comfortable talking to Qui-Gon about Padme.

    What do you guys think?
     
    Darth Arthurius likes this.
  2. firesaber

    firesaber Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 5, 2006
    I think not, at least not based on the "old" canon. Qui-Gon was very much into the Living Force, exploration side of the dogma. I think he could have better guided Anakin along the path, including its curves and detours and helped him explore and manage his emotions.
     
  3. Dandelo

    Dandelo Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2014
    I think it depends how much you think destiny plays a part in events in the GFFA.

    Either way, I think he would have turned, but it would have been a little harder on Palpatine's part to turn him.
     
  4. firesaber

    firesaber Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 5, 2006
    The ST being it what it is thus far, I rather like that this concept has been turned on its head. I no longer know what I thought I knew.
     
  5. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2001
    I don't think he was destined to turn (or even destroy the Sith, for that matter). The prophecy talks about the most likely outcome but it's not set in stone.
     
  6. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    If nothing else, I do think that Qui-Gon would have made another attempt to free Shmi from slavery.
    And had he done that, I think that would have gone a long way to put Anakin's mind at ease.
    Maybe he would have allowed the occasional "phone call" between them.

    In all, I think Anakin would have been better able to let go of his attachment to his mother.
    Would she still have died in the same manner?
    Hard to say, if she was freed soon after TPM, then she might have left the planet.
    Or events were altered enough that she didn't meet Cliegg, moved to his place and thus he dying in that camp might never happen.
    Remove that, and you remove a big chunk of what drove Anakin to the dark side.

    Would Palpatine be able to turn him anyway?
    Hard to say but I think it would have been much harder.

    Of course if Palpatine becomes aware that Anakin isn't buying what he is selling, then he would either arrange for an "accident" to kill Anakin, as he would want to eliminate a dangerous foe.
    Or Anakin gets killed in Order 66.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  7. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2013
    I don't think so. I think he would have had a big epic duel that ended with him killing Sidious and Tyranus - the saga of Anakin would be 3 episodes instead of 6 lol.
     
    GnastyGnas likes this.
  8. Benster7703

    Benster7703 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jan 8, 2018
    I don't know, i do think Anakin would not keep so many secrets and be more open with Qui-gon, but i don't think it would save him.
     
  9. ralfyman

    ralfyman Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jan 9, 2018
    Not just Padme but also his mother, which is what Yoda felt as Anakin was about to join the Jedi.
     
  10. Ruffmeian

    Ruffmeian Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2015
    This is such a great question. I've wondered this a lot, and then feel really guilty for the blame I put on Obi-Wan because he's my favorite character. Though Obi-Wan does need to be held accountable a bit, doesn't he? Of all people, he knew how unstable Anakin could be and how he was constantly in emotional turmoil. I always felt Mace, Yoda and Obi-Wan kind of shot themselves in the foot by having Anakin spy on Palpatine knowing the history there. Qui-Gon was older, very unconventional in terms of being a jedi and constantly questioned authority. I think this is where Anakin would have been a great fit for him because his biggest issue was that he himself was not a good fit for the jedi code- way too passionate and unable to suppress his emotions. As we've come to learn, not all emotions are bad, not all of them lead to the dark side, and what if he had learned to redirect them instead of being told to abolish them? This is where I think Qui-Gon's strength would be and why he very possibly could have prevented the fall of Anakin Skywalker. Also, I don't think there would have been the same competitive relationship Anakin had with Obi-Wan, so it really would have a mentor dynamic, where the former was always confused between brother and father.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
    GnastyGnas likes this.
  11. Darth Holmes

    Darth Holmes Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2017
    He still would have turned to the dark side since he was the chosen one. I don't believe that his destiny would have changed at all.
    However- that is an outstanding question and I definitely want to think on it more.
     
  12. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Yes, he would. Because the reason for why he fell is for going against the Jedi's (and therefore Qui-Gon's) teachings.

    No. Being the chosen one doesn't mean falling to the dark side.
     
    {Quantum/MIDI} likes this.
  13. Kenneth Morgan

    Kenneth Morgan Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    May 27, 1999
    I can't say he would've definitely not turned to the Dark Side, but Palpatine would've had a much more difficult time trying to convert him. Ani would've had Qui-Gon, a far more understanding and flexible mentor, guiding him, rather than the (initially) more intolerant Obi-Wan. Also, I agree that Qui-Gon would've seen to getting Shmi freed from slavery and making sure she was OK, easing many of Ani's fears. As for Padme, I would hope that Qui-Gon would be more understanding of Ani's viewpoint in dealing with the situation, rather than using lies, slander and denial, as Obi-Wan did.

    Problem is, Palpatine would still be working to destabilize the Republic as a whole, which made the Council, which Qui-Gon isn't a part of, go off the rails. So the plan for Empire still continues.
     
    Shadao and Samuel Vimes like this.
  14. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Why would Qui-Gon go free Shmi of all people? To pander Anakin? Why would Qui-Gon pander to Anakin? Anakin's problem is attachment and fear of loss. People seem to forget that Shmi was free when he went to save her. And wether he knew she was free or not is irrelevant to his decision to go rescue her. He saw her in pain and suffering so he went, and that could have happened anywhere, anytime. Had he known she was free he would still go because he was attached to her and afraid to lose her. He acted on his fear then and later on with Padmé as well. Qui-Gon would never pander to him. He would advise the exact same thing Obi-Wan and Yoda did: let go. That's the Jedi way. It's not easy, but Qui-Gon warned him of that. It is what it is.
     
    FARK2005 likes this.
  15. Kenneth Morgan

    Kenneth Morgan Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    May 27, 1999
    He'd free her because he owed it to her, and because it was the right thing to do. Sadly, he couldn't free everyone, but he could at least do this for her. And the knowledge that Shmi was no longer in bondage and could make a life of her own would surely help ease Ani's fears. It would leave one less avenue for Palpatine, or any Dark Side influence, to use to convert Ani. Besides, the Jedi shouldn't be blind or cold to the problems of others simply because they're related to a Jedi or have feelings for one. That's DJ-level cold ("Hey, thanks for the meal and the kid, but I'm gone. Nothing personal; it's just Jedi business.").

    One of my favorite old EU plotlines was in Tatooine Ghost, where we discover that Qui-Gon did, indeed, make provision for her freedom, and only his death prevented him from seeing that through. That's the sort of compassion a Jedi needs.
     
    Shadao and Samuel Vimes like this.
  16. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Owed? Shmi's only request was for him to help her son, which he did. Not that he owed her anything and vice versa.

    The "right" thing to do would be to free all the slaves (actually, it would be to end slavery period, and the Hutts rule too), not one in particular in order to pander to one of their own because he has fear of loss.

    No, it wouldn't. Because he went to her not because she was a slave (she wasn't and hasn't been for some time) but because she was in pain and suffering. And again, that could happen anywhere at anytime to anyone he holds dear.

    Palpatine had nothing to do with it. Palpatine fed his lust for power. Anakin went to Shmi out of fear and attachment.

    No, your argument is that they should go free Shmi because of Anakin's feelings not because it's slavery (otherwise we wouldn't be discussing Shmi alone). They are not blind nor cold. They know very well what's going on: fear and attachment. Hence their wise advice (and Shmi's as well, remember?): let go. The only alternative to Anakin's problem is to cease to be a Jedi and stay with Shmi at all times to be sure that nothing bad happens to her (in essence, living in nothing but fear). And even then, the time will come where she will die and there's nothing that he can do to stop it.

    Not what happened.

    The Jedi are already compassionate to begin with. That's part of who they are. They don't need what they already have/are.
     
  17. Kuro

    Kuro Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2015
    Personally, I think Padmé probably should’ve introduced a bill in the Senate to embargo any star system that allows slavery, sort of similar to how the world pressured South Africa to end apartheid.
     
  18. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    According to the film Qui-Gon himself doesn't follow the Jedi Code; so to say his teaching and the traditional Jedi dogma are one and the same is simply false.

    Because she risked her son's life to help him. Because her ensured safety out of slavery would mean one less worry on Anakin's mind. You cannot just pretend Anakin is like every other Jedi who has never met and thus has no attachment to his parents. He depended on his mother for everything and now all of a sudden she is gone, Qui-Gon likely would have been able to see this; just like he was able to see that Anakin was the Chosen One before the Council could; just like he was able to distinguish Darth Maul as a Sith Lord before the Council could.
     
    Samuel Vimes likes this.
  19. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    If he didn't follow the Jedi way, he wouldn't be a Jedi.

    We know very well what Obi-Wan meant by "not following the code". We see an example right there on taking Anakin as a Padawan. The Code forbids two padawans under the same Master, so he considers Obi-Wan ready for the trials while taking Anakin in. He's following the code, but in a maverick way.
     
    {Quantum/MIDI} likes this.
  20. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    And the reason why he did that is because of outside events combined with his fear and doubts.
    He did not go against the Jedi teachings as a matter of principle.
    Ergo, change the outside events and you might change his later actions.
    Had Shmi went off-world to say Naboo and lived until she was 90, then Anakin would not have gone kill crazy on the Sand People, nor would he have made a a dangerous promise to not fail again or become obsessed with stopping death.

    Why would he?
    Because he tried already. Remember in TPM?
    He TRIED to free Shmi as well. Because he knew that would help Anakin and it would be the kind, caring and compassionate hing to do.
    Look at the last scene between he and Shmi. He asks her if she will be alright and he places his hand on her shoulder in a warm and caring gesture.
    He did not view Shmi as some nobody that just happened to be the mother of the chosen one. The mother that the chosen oen should just forget existed.
    No, he cared for her.
    And I would agree with Kenneth Morgan the EU novel that had him send an item to her so that she could free herself was totally in keeping with his character.

    As for forgetting, you forget that Anakin did NOT know that she had been freed.
    Instead he spent ten years worrying about her. Missing her and thinking of the terrible things that could happen to her since she could be sold to anyone.

    Most normal children would miss their parents in TPM Anakin's position. And they would fear and worry about them. And wonder if they could see them again.
    Suddenly separating a child from their parents and then forbidding them from ever seeing them again, that is a pretty good way to ensure that some form of trauma will arise.
    Attachment disorder is usually talked about with children that are unable to form stable and healthy attachments. Often due to some earlier bad event.

    Anakin was pretty much told to not miss his mother and get over her.
    The Jedi did not realize that this is easier said than done.
    But they only knew students that had no attachment to either parent and they likely expected Anakin to be exactly like them.
    So they did not alter their methods in any way or try to see if this new student might need something different. Instead they went on with their "one-size fits all" approach to teaching.
    And not surprisingly, it didn't work.
    What is surprising is that for ten years they did not seem to notice that Anakin did not get over his attachments, he just hid them.
    He buried them and tried to act like they weren't there. But they were.
    And when they came out, and multiplied with ten years of fear and worry plus his adult power in the Force. The result was deadly.
    I think Qui-Gon was willing to buck conventions enough that he would have adjusted the training to fit Anakin.

    Most children are attached to their parents but most also grow out of it.
    Slowly, over time. They learn to be away from their parents for longer and longer periods.
    Until they can stand on their own.
    But during this, most kids know that their parents are there, safe and can help them if need be.
    That security gives comfort and often helps the children to move on.

    With Anakin, his connection was severed suddenly and quickly. And he was left with no way to contact his parent or even know if she was alive. And he knew that she was still a slave on a dangerous world.
    All that added to his fear.
    Had he known that Shmi was free and maybe allowed the occasional "phone call" then he would have rested easier knowing that his mother was fine.

    It is like those terrible situations when a child goes missing and the parents don't know what happened.
    They cling to hope and have trouble moving on. Doubt and uncertainty holds them captive.
    Loosing a child is awful but at least then you know what happened and can mourn, grieve and then, hopefully move on.
    Being left in limbo, not knowing if the child is alive or dead, is very terrible.

    Also, did Anakin ever ask Obi-Wan if they could do something about his mother?
    I can not imagine why he wouldn't.
    Given what we see, the only answer would have been "NO".
    And after some time, I would imagine that Anakin would stop asking.
    And to young Anakin, I would imagine this left a dark scar on him
    He sees these Jedi, powerful, able to do a lot.
    And yet they won't lift a finger to help his mother.
    And young Anakin would not really get any kind of explanation of "We can't play favorites." Or "We won't help just a few, we help everyone or non at all."
    All he can see is that they don't give a damn about his mother.
    And that, I think, is the first seed to him eventually betraying them.
    Had Anakin asked Qui-Gon, then I think he would not say no. I think he would have acted already.
    And Qui-Gon knew about Anakin's promise to come back and free his mother.
    And unlike Obi-Wan or any of the other Jedi, he knew Shmi. He had seen first hand the bond between them. And knew what it meant to Anakin.

    To conclude; a short story that I like.
    One day, an old man was walking along a beach that was littered with thousands of starfish that had been washed ashore by the high tide. As he walked he came upon a young boy who was eagerly throwing the starfish back into the ocean, one by one.

    Puzzled, the man looked at the boy and asked what he was doing. Without looking up from his task, the boy simply replied, “I’m saving these starfish, Sir”.

    The old man chuckled aloud, “Son, there are thousands of starfish and only one of you. What difference can you make?”

    The boy picked up a starfish, gently tossed it into the water and turning to the man, said, “I made a difference to that one!”


    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  21. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2013
    But, the whole point of Qui-Gon's character is that he didn't stick to all the Jedi rules and regulations. So the Jedi's teachings and Qui-Gon's teachings are not the same thing.
     
  22. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2014
    That wouldn't make any difference, seeing as how Tatooine wasn't in the Republic anyway.
     
  23. Kuro

    Kuro Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2015
    I know it’s not part of the Republic. Look up “disinvestment from South Africa” to see what I’m talking about.
     
  24. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2014
    But the Senate has no jurisdiction out there anyway. Even if they cut off trade, Republic currency already isn't commonly accepted for payment.
     
  25. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Who's "we"? I'm going by what's stated in the film while you're just making stuff up. That dialogue was clearly placed to show Qui-Gon follows his own rules in some regards. Apparently he skirts the line just enough to remain an active Jedi; nothing more. They don't even believe him when he tells them Darth Maul was a Sith Lord.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018