1. Welcome to the new boards! Details here!

PT Would Anakin have fallen to the dark side if Qui-Gon had lived?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by GnastyGnas, Jan 8, 2018.

  1. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

    Jul 7, 2009
    He went against the Jedi teachings because he decided to let fear and attachments control his actions. There were no "outside events". There was his counscious decision to go against his mandate and oath.

    Had she seen her in pain and suffering in visions, he would go after her be it on Tatooine, Naboo or anywhere else. The point is that her being in danger can happen anywhere and anytime. Her dying can happen anywhere at anytime. If he wants to be with her everywhere and everytime, fearing any eventual bad thing that could happen, then he can't be a Jedi. He chose to be a Jedi, therefore he has to behave like one. He chose not to when he chose to act on fear.

    No, he tried because he had the opportunity to without compromising anything else. He didn't do it to help Anakin's fears.

    Yes, so...? By your logic, that's a stupid question. She's a slave so of course she wouldn't be alright.

    Who said anything about being a nobody and forgetting she existed? That's a cheap strawman. Letting go doesn't mean pretending someone doesn't exist. What a stupid argument.

    No, I didn't. Had you read my post you'd realize that I specifically stated that it's irrelevant wether he knew or not that she had been freed. The point is that he saw her in pain and suffering. That's what made him act. Not her condition as a slave.

    Source? Or be freed and go anywhere. He spent ten years missing her. His visions did not happen for 10 years. And even if what you said was true, all the more reason to let go of fear and attachment.

    Again, so what? Who said it's not normal for someone to miss one's mother?

    What trauma? Anakin is pretty healthy in AOTC. He's worried about his mother because he's been having visions of her in pain. That has nothing to do with trauma or sudden separation from his mother.

    Besides, Anakin chose to be a Jedi. Why didn't he leave the Jedi if he was so traumatized by the requirements? Oh, right. Because he wanted to have his cake and eat it too. And way to miss the point of no attachment.

    Not to miss his mother? I don't recall that. Source? And yes, he should get over it. Shmi said the same thing: be brave and don't look back.

    False. The Jedi never said it was easy. Qui-Gon said being a Jedi was not easy and it was a hard life.

    No, they only allow students within their first year of age precisely because they know the problem with attachment.

    False. They know very well what he needed: to let go. What he wants is what you think he should have. What he wants is what the Sith provided. That's the whole difference.

    It did work. He chose not to do it.


    His fault. He chose not to follow the Jedi way. He chose the easier, more seductive path.

    Adjusted? Certainly. At the expense of the Jedi way? No.

    Being a Jedi is not to be like most people. Is to live by a set of tenets and beliefs. Is to leave a selfless life at the service of others. That's the life Anakin chose to have. He was free to leave if he didn't like it.

    Yeah, fine, until the phone call ended. Then fear would take over again, the visions would appear and he would act on fear of what could happen.

    Again, self-less.

    You can't? Hmm, divert limited resources to save a slave out of thousands only to pander someone's inability to let go. Can't imagine why they wouldn't do something like that.
    ss640 likes this.
  2. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones (2002)
    They pandered to let that "someone" be trained far past the usual age of initiation. Of course adapting another rule to this special circumstance would be insane, right?
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
  3. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Knight star 4

    Nov 27, 2013
    I always said ;

    1- Kenobi didn't want to train Anakin in the first place, he did that only because of his promise.
    2- Qui-Gon, at this point, is a more experienced Jedi Master than Kenobi. And Kenobi himself wasn't exactly ready to take a Padawan learner to himself while he was just Knighted at the end of the Phantom Menace. Because of his youth, he never tried to understand young Anakin and he was never patient with him. Kenobi could be that wise Jedi teacher after the Clone Wars, but not before. Especially not shortly after his new Jedi knightship.
    3- Anakin needed a father figure, Obi-Wan was like a brother to him. Palpatine used that advantage while Qui-Gon wasn't around.
    4- Qui-Gon was a pretty good example of how a Jedi Master can be despite what Council thinks, Obi-Wan was different in that regard. Which is why Kenobi never understood Anakin when he denies the Council.
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
  4. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

    Dec 19, 2016
    Anakin was doomed the moment his mother taught him the value of helping other people, even when the odds are heavily stacked against your success.
  5. Kenneth Morgan

    Kenneth Morgan Chosen One star 5

    May 27, 1999
    The idea that outside events have no bearing on Ani's situation doesn't work, in my opinion. We're all affected by our surroundings, and by the events that happen around us. Ani's actions and decisions didn't happen in a vacuum. If Qui-Gon had lived, if Shmi had been freed immediately, if Obi-Wan had refused to train Ani, if the Council had sent him back to Tatooine after Qui-Gon's death, if Palpatine had focused on some other Jedi or Padawan, if a different team had been assigned to protect Padme in AOTC...get the picture?

    And Ani's lust for power was created by his feelings of powerlessness. He was unable to know what was happening with his mother, and was even told he wasn't permitted to know. His desire to help her or even check on her was dismissed. Further, no one else in the Order would go in his place. He felt utterly powerless to help or contact the only family he'd ever known. And when he defied orders to see to her, it was too late. So, he overcompensated by wanting to gain more power than anyone else has, so that he'd never be powerless to do the right thing again. Now, can we really say the same thing would've happened if Qui-Gon, a true father figure, had been there to counsel Ani and help Shmi (or arrange for someone else to)?

    Again, I'm not saying it wouldn't be possible for Ani to turn Dark, but it would've been less likely. And better Jedi than Ani, raised in the Order from the beginning, had turned to the Dark Side. It's all based on circumstances.
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018

    JEDI-RISING Force Ghost star 6

    Apr 15, 2005
    i think probably not . i think he would have had easier talks with Qui Gonn and he also may have sensed problems with Anakin sooner.
    Erkan12 likes this.
  7. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

    Jul 7, 2009
    Again, where is it established that they did not notice Anakin's problem with attachment? Obi-Wan advised him on that very thing at the beginning of the movie.

    Pandered whom? They've accepted the belief that he was the Chosen One and therefore he would be trained. That's not pandering the anyone. It's a decision they've made.

    To save Shmi with the argument that it would ease Anakin's fears is pandering. Not only that, it doesn't solve the problem he had. The movie shows that.
  8. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    When they sent him on a romantic vacation holiday with the woman he was obsessed with.
    Not according to the PT. Yoda outwardly stated that the prophecy may have been misread. Mace Windu also seemed to question the prophecy when prompted by Obi-Wan.
    So there was certainly no consensus that Anakin was the Chosen One. So when it serves your narrative an action is a "decision", but when it completely contradicts what you're saying, it's pandering. Just to be clear.
    Erkan12 likes this.
  9. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

    Apr 13, 2011
    I think he likely wouldn't have turned if mentored by Qui-Gon.

    Notice when Qui-Gon gives Anakin a lesson on midichlorians after Anakin is turned down by the Council, Anakin queries "I don't understand" and Qui-Gon calmly reassures "With time and training you will". But Qui-Gon doesn't live to continue the lesson.

    When we get to Ep3, Palpatine is in Qui-Gon's place. Notice Anakin similarly states twice in the film to Palpatine "I don't understand", a line he never uses with Obi-Wan ("I'm counting on you..." "For what, I don't understand?" and "If they haven't included you in their plot they soon will." 'I'm not sure I understand.")
    Anakin and Obi-Wan are more like rivaling brothers, if you look at every mentor/student relationship in the saga it has a completely contrasting dynamic to Obi-Wan and Anakin in Episode 2. For example in the OT Luke rarely answers back to Obi-Wan or Yoda, he really respects their wisdom and takes what they say as gospel. I think the disparity with Anakin and Obi-Wan is done intentionally to set up that Obi-Wan wasn't destined to train Anakin, and was only a true Master to Luke.
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
    Erkan12 likes this.
  10. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

    Jul 7, 2009
    That has nothing to do with not knowing the problem. The Council simply trusted that he would behave like a Jedi and control his emotion.

    According to TPM and AOTC. ROTS is not the PT. It's a part of it.

    What?! An action is a decision. Pandering is acting with the purpose of catering and/or satisfying someone.
  11. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    And the reason why he did this is BECAUSE of those outside events.
    He missed his mother and worried about her since she was a slave on a world run by gangsters.
    That is an outside event.
    His mother was tortured to death and he arrived too late to save her.
    That is an outside event.
    He got dreams about her suffering and of Padme dying, those are outside events.

    Anakin did not exist in a vacuum.
    Outside events combined with his issues cause his turn.
    He is responsible for his actions but I am saying that different circumstances might have changed his actions.
    Ex. if he never got the dreams about Shmi.
    Then he would never go to Tatooine, not go kill crazy, not make that promise.
    And if he never got the visions about Padme. Then he would not fear for her life, he would not be as interested in this "anti death spell."

    First, Anakin was NINE when he left. He was far too young to make an informed decision.
    Second, slaves have a bomb implanted in them. That is quite a bit more than what is normal.
    And she is a slave so he knows she can be sold to anyone, who could do anything to her.
    Again, outside factors greatly influence how much a person will worry about an other.
    A child that has a parent that is a teacher and another that has a parent that is a soldier.
    The two children will most likely not worry as much about their parents when they are away.
    Esp if the soldier child knows the parent has been sent off to war.

    To say that Anakin would worry as much regardless of circumstances is unfounded.

    The simple fact is that he tried to free Shmi.
    And your argument is that Qui-Gon would never, ever do this, for any reason.
    He did not owe Shmi anything, it is wrong to free slaves and he would not pander to Anakin.
    So why did he?

    It shows that he cares and that he is thinking about her future.
    He knows that she is a slave and she knows what that would entail.
    But the question is also about, is she alright with Anakin leaving.

    And the argument that what he knows or not is not relevant is nonsense.
    Of course it is highly relevant.
    If someone thinks that their parent/child/significant other is held hostage by a crazed killer.
    That will get them to worry a lot.
    And they will still worry even if that other person has been freed and is fine.
    The worry is based on what they KNOW.

    Or a lack of knowing.
    If a parent doesn't know where their child is, then they might start to worry.

    Anakin thinks that his mother is stil a slave, with a bomb inside her.
    That she isn't would not impact his worry in the slightest as long as he doesn't know about it.
    Had he been told this and he still worried and fear for her, then you might have an argument.
    But since he doesn't, your argument falls flat.

    He has not been able to let go of Shmi and still worried about her.
    And also, TPM, there Anakin made a promise to come back and free her.
    And for ten years that promise has gone unfulfilled.

    The Jedi council.
    They scolded Anakin for his feeling about his mother and they deemed them to be too dangerous that he would not be trained.
    So for a Jedi to be, those feelings are apparently very wrong.

    Anakin in AotC?
    What movie did you watch?
    He is far from healthy.
    He has obsessed for ten years about a girl he met for a few days.
    He has very poor control over his temper and manners.
    He is rash and impulsive, he is quick to violence.
    He is also way more arrogant and self centered than he used to be.

    TPM Anakin was a pretty well-balanced kid, esp given his circumstances.
    Ten years later, his ego is out of control, as are his feelings.
    And he is far from well-balanced.

    Again nine years old.
    And he promised to come back and free his mother, he more than likely thought that this would be easier is he was a Jedi.
    And he still wanted to help people.
    As he said in TPM"
    And the Jedi will not lift a finger to help his mother or any of the slaves on Tatooine.

    Yoda's dire prophet of doom speech.
    Where he pretty much said that Anakin missing his mother would lead to horrible things.

    And yet they apparently expected Anakin to be exactly like all their other students, that never knew their parents.

    Exactly, so now that they have a student that DOES have an attachment, what to do?
    Just tell him to get rid of it? No help, or care given?
    No doing anything outside the norm to make this easier?

    The Jedi to be are raised in controlled and "safe" environment. Great care is taken to ensure that no undue attachment is formed. So now they have one that has a different background.
    Should we try to accommodate this and perhaps change our teachings to fit this?
    Or do like we always have?
    The Jedi seemed to do the latter.

    An other factor is that Qui-GOn had taught other students before, Obi-Wan had never done this.
    So you have a difference of experienced teacher vs total rookie teacher.
    And it is even odder that the Jedi did not see a danger here and assign some other master to help Obi-Wan.

    Yes he needed to be able to let go but they did not realize that that just telling him to let go might not work. And they did not realize that to trying to alleviate his fears would help with that.
    Like for ex making sure that Shmi is no longer a slave and let him know about it.
    He made a promise to come back and Qui-Gon knew it.
    So either tell Anakin that his promise will never be fulfilled or actually help him with that so he can then move on.

    It spectacularly did not work.
    Partly due to Anakin and partly due to the Jedi not knowing what to do.

    Anakin is dreaming about his mother, and has done for some time.
    Showing that he is not over her.
    And he is very clearly infatuated with Padme, whom he has not seen for ten years.
    The signs are quite obvious that their lessons are not working.

    Also in TPM, the JC could see through Anakin and they were aware that his thoughts centered on his mother. So since his thoughts are still about her ten years later and the Jedi are fully capable of reading his mind, then they would know this. Unless they for no reason decide to not probe his thoughts ever again.

    His choice was greatly influenced by outside factors.

    Since Qui-Gon, a Jedi, tried to free Shmi then freeing her is NOT against the Jedi way.

    Again nine year old Anakin would not really have any idea about this.
    And if Qui-Gon had told him right there on Tatooine that he would never be allowed to come back and free his mother. Then I would imagine that he would have made a different choice.
    And that is another thing, Qui-Gon was there when Anakin said he would come back and free Shmi.
    If he knew that this would never be allowed, why did he not speak up?
    Either he thought that he would break it to Anakin later, which is morally questionable as he lets Anakin become a Jedi under somewhat false pretenses.
    Or it was not an issue and Qui-Gon did plan to do something about it later.

    Unless he by this stage had been able to let go of his fear and worry.


    1) It would be the decent thing to do as thanks.
    2) Anakin is the most important Jedi alive as he is the only one that can kill the sith.
    So making sure that everything goes smoothly is sensible.
    3) As for limited resources, just go buy Naboo and pick up some water, they have a lot of that on Naboo while it is very valuable on Tatooine.
    Or take some of the broken battle droids that are laying all over Naboo.
    And a dirt poor farmer was able to buy Shmi, so ti would not require a lot of cash.

    In closing, much of your argument is based on the idea that Anakin is doomed from birth, that no matter what happens around him, he WILL turn to the dark side.
    I don't agree.
    He is responsible yes but again, outside events had an impact as well.
    Change them and you might change his choices.
    EX. had Palpatine fallen down the stairs a month after TPM and broken his neck and Dooku had not turned yet, then a lot would have changed.
    And speaking of Dooku, here we have a very senior Jedi, raised by the system and he turned.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
  12. williamjj666

    williamjj666 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Jan 8, 2016
    Qui gon is portrayed as what a jedi should be like ideally instead of the rigid dogmatic approach of the council. so in theory quigon would be a much better teacher for anakin than obi wan and the chances of him turning to dark side would be considerably less.
  13. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    Why would they think that? The entire narrative of the film shows us Anakin is unable to behave like a Jedi and control his emotion. Starting with him openly arguing with Obi-Wan about the investigation.
    Not according to the PT. Yoda outwardly stated that the prophecy may have been misread. Mace Windu also seemed to question the prophecy when prompted by Obi-Wan.
    So there was certainly no consensus that Anakin was the Chosen One. So when it serves your narrative an action is a "decision", but when it completely contradicts what you're saying, it's pandering. Just to be clear.

    Anakin's training satisfy's Obi-Wan, because he swore to train him. Any action is ultimately satisfying someone. See how that works? So apparently YOU are the ultimate decision-maker as to what is just a decision or what is pandering; and anything that doesn't serve you're narrative is pandering. When Anakin destroyed the TF ship was he pandering to the Naboo? When Luke surrendered himself on Endor was he pandering to Vader? Yeah see how that logic works?
  14. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 12, 2014
    I feel like he required special training given he started older with attachments. E.g. a combination of Qui Con, for that 'understanding of the outside world', Obi Wan for friendship and patience, Yoda's wisdom, and Mace's "do what is necessary" style.

    Qui Gon may have helped, had Shmi been saved. I think that was key. And helping him see clearly regarding Padme.
    Ruffmeian likes this.
  15. ss640

    ss640 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Dec 28, 2017
    It's stated outright in the film why they think that, as Obi-Wan expresses his worry that Anakin won't be able to control himself like you said. "If he is the Chosen One then he will pass this test" <---- The test being his assignment with Padme. So, in a nutshell, they they think they can trust him to behave like a Jedi because he is the Chosen One.
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
  16. Ruffmeian

    Ruffmeian Jedi Knight star 3

    Dec 19, 2015
    Mace may have been a good asset with the no nonsense, for sure. I don’t know about Yoda, though. He knew Anakin was having bad dreams so why didn’t he step in more to guide him? Knowing he was already emotionally compromised before putting him into kahoots with Palpatine.
  17. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    :confused:Um, am I crazy or does Obi-Wan never say that in the film?
  18. ss640

    ss640 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Dec 28, 2017
    no it wasn't Obi-Wan who said that, sorry my phrasing must of been confusing.

    Obi-Wan was expressing worries to Windu that Anakin is not up to the challenge of having this assignment by himself, and then Windu tells him that if he is the chosen one then he will past this test.
  19. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    No he doesn't say that. He says "remember Obi-Wan if the prophecy is true your apprentice is the only one who can bring the Force into balance." I don't think this individual assignment of guarding Padme is being considered as Anakin's trial.
  20. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Host, PT Interview Thread star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Feb 18, 2014
    I would say yes. It was bound to happen no matter what really
  21. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

    Jul 7, 2009
    Because he decided to act on them. The Jedi way doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's in these situations where one is tempted that one should choose to behave properly. That's the whole point. Otherwise why have a code of conduct?

    No. He acted because he saw her in pain and suffering.

    Outside events that don't force him to act. He chose to act one way instead of the other. He's responsible for that decision. Not for "outside events" that may or may not have happened and he doesn't control.

    No. Again, his decision to act one way instead of the other caused him to turn.

    Well, of course. Different circumstances wouldn't demand a decision to be made. But it's precisely in these moments that one must the right path from the wrong path.

    Oh, then when is one old enough to make an informed decision? 15? 16? 18? Why didn't he decide then?

    The movie is pretty explicit in showing that, aside from naturally missing her, it's the vision of her in pain and suffering that makes him act. Not slavery, bombs or lawless locations. The fear of loss.

    The circumstances would be the same: to see in a vision a loved one in pain, suffering and dying. Anakin's worry (i.e: fear) is irrelevant as long as he controls it and doesn't decide to act on it.

    I've already said that he only tried to free Shmi because he had the opportunity to do so without compromising anything else or contributing to the slavery business.

    Read above.

    What he "knows" is that she's in pain and suffering. Pain and suffering is not exclusive to slaves, is it? It can happen anywhere at anytime, right? I think we can agree in these basic facts. That's precisely why Lucas devised this situation. On something that can happen anywhere at anytime.

    Anakin being worried is not the problem. Him acting on that fear is the problem.

    No, he thinks that she's in pain and suffering. Wether she is a slave or not is irrelevant. So much so that she wasn't a slave anymore.

    No, it doesn't. Anakin's belief that she was a slave didn't change in 10 years. If that was the source of his decision to act, he would have done it sooner. The movie shows otherwise. That it's his vision of her in pain and suffering that made him act. Not her being a slave.

    You're trying to find justifications for a non-issue. He didn't decide to act because of a promise. He didn't decide to act because she was a slave. He decided to act because he saw her in pain and suffering.

    Seriously, go watch the movie. I'm not going to argue established facts just because you're trying to excuse Anakin's actions on things that were not relevant to his decision, so much so that he knew of them for 10 years and did nothing.

    "Scolded". You might need to watch that scene again. They passively make factual statements about his feelings. Feelings that are important to be considered if one is to be trained as a Jedi.

    They are dangerous since acting on those feelings can have grave consequences. The movies show that.

    So, to you being a teenager is a sign of unhealthiness. Got it.

    Again with that strawman. Why didn't he do it for 10 years?

    No, they have their hands full with the Republic as it is, the Republic where they have jurisdiction to act.

    No. He replied to Anakin's question of the relevance of his fear. Again, watch the movie.

    No. It's precisely because they knew he was not like the others that they were hesitant to accept him. Still, they had faith that he would behave like a Jedi and when the time came, fulfill the prophecy.

    Easy? It's not easy. Who said anything about being easy? It's not, that's the point. If you want easy, then don't be a Jedi. The easy, more seductive path is not there.

    "Change our teachings". In other words, not be a Jedi. Don't you realize the irony of that suggestion?

    The "experienced teacher" trusted Obi-Wan to be able to do it, remember? Are you going to question the "experienced teacher"? And are you implying that Anakin's decisions and failures were due to Obi-Wan's "inexperience"? Really?

    It's even odder that the "experienced teacher" didn't see the danger there either. Heck, it's even odder that the "experienced teacher" did not see the danger in taking in someone that old.

    "Might not work"? Did he try? No. He decided not to because he preferred to follow what he wanted to hear. The easier, more seductive path.

    By "alleviate" you mean acting on those fears. The opposite of the Jedi way.

    To pander, then? Why not go all the way and make sure she's never in pain, suffering and will never die? Because that's precisely what made Anakin act. Not her being a slave. She wasn't one and he had the visions all the same.

    The Jedi knew what to do. So did Anakin. He chose not to do and do the opposite. That's the tragedy.

    Their lessons are working. So much so that he knows what to do and not to do. So much so that he chose to follow the Jedi way and not to act (until he didn't). But that's on him. His decision to go against their teachings.

    Why would they probe his thoughts? Why would Anakin allow it?

    Outside factors merely present the problem. It's Anakin who decides which approach to take: the Jedi way or the selfish way.

    Non sequitur. Freeing slaves was never against the Jedi way.

    Newsflash: Anakin grew up. He wasn't 9 forever.

    No, he wouldn't. That's the whole point of letting go of his mother and her encouraging him to do so.

    He was there, but at quite a distance too. Wether he heard or not it's pure speculation and at the end of the day, irrelevant.

    Or he didn't hear it. Or he did and knew about the fact that if Anakin didn't like it, he was free to leave.
    {Quantum/MIDI} likes this.
  22. Kenneth Morgan

    Kenneth Morgan Chosen One star 5

    May 27, 1999
    I'm confused; so Anakin had a vision that his mother was in pain and suffering. And the Jedi way would've been to ignore those visions, even though it's established that having visions of the future is a natural thing for the Jedi to have, and the Jedi are supposed to be protectors of those in need and in danger. Further, it's the Jedi way for no other Jedi to go to her aid, as that would be reinforcing his attachment.

    So, the Jedi way is to let people suffer and die if they are in any way attached to a Jedi? If that's the case, then it's no wonder Ani decided the Jedi were evil. And, if I'm wrong, please explain.
  23. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    Guilt from not fulfilling the promise could easily play a factor. You may be the one who needs to rewatch TPM to gain a better perspective on the character.

    Are you actually arguing that 9 year olds have the maturity to make adult decisions? 18. YES, 18. In legal terms it's called the age of majority. There is a reason it's nowhere NEAR 9.

    Yoda clearly disagreed with the Council majority. Again, you may be the one who needs to rewatch TPM. Obi-Wan's shortcomings as a mentor CLEARLY played a part in Anakin's fall. Your surroundings matter. That's why a kid growing up in North Dakota who's mentor is a farmer might grow up to be a farmer; while a kid growing up a Somalia who's mentor is a pirate might grow up to be a soulless, murderous killer. Pretending everyone just ends up how they are regardless of surrounding is asinine.
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
    Shadao and Samuel Vimes like this.
  24. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

    Jul 7, 2009
    No, I do not. You are the one who needs to see AOTC to acknowledge the fact that he went to her because he saw her in pain and suffering. Not because of a promise to free her. If the promise was relevant, he would have said so when he confided with Padmé (and even Obi-Wan) and would have gone earlier.

    No. I'm arguing that he's been an adult for a while before AOTC and he never went back to her.

    Who said it was 9? The argument was that he was not informed. He eventually was and never went back.

    Who said Yoda didn't disagree with the Council? He stated as much. Drop the strawmen, it doesn't get the discussion anywhere. The "experienced teacher" Samuel Vimes referred to was Qui-Gon. Not Yoda.

    Which shortcomings were those, exactly?

    It's not "regardless of surroundings". Anakin ended up the way he is due to his own decisions, not due to lack of proper training or advice. He was informed of right and wrong and chose wrong because wrong would give him what he wanted, which is against the Jedi way.
    {Quantum/MIDI} likes this.
  25. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    Okay. One motivation does not disprove all others. E.g. A basketball player might play in the NBA because they want the money. This doesn't mean they also DON'T play because they like to play basketball. See how that works?
    No actually you said:

    So you're implication is that WHEN he was on Tatooine, at age 9, he was making informed decision to become a Jedi along with all the massively restrictive rules that he and his mother knew nothing about. You can say his mother knowingly handed him over, that's fine. A 9 year old isn't mature enough to make such decisions.

    If you rewatch Star Wars Episode VI: Return of the Jedi (1983) or Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith (2005), Obi-Wan himself explains.

    His decisions were a consequence of his surroundings. That's why a kid growing up in North Dakota who's mentor is a farmer might grow up to be a farmer; while a kid growing up a Somalia who's mentor is a pirate might grow up to be a soulless, murderous killer. Pretending everyone just ends up how they are regardless of surrounding is asinine.
    Samuel Vimes likes this.