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PT Would Anakin have fallen to the dark side if Qui-Gon had lived?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by GnastyGnas, Jan 8, 2018.

  1. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Yes I think Mace would have been more Anakin's style than Yoda.
    Qui Gon to understand his real world upbringing.
    But Yoda to instill patience. I think Yoda came into this training for too late.
    Obi Wan as a friend.
     
  2. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Outside events shape a person, they greatly influence how they will act in any given situation.

    And different circumstances might lead to a different decision to be made.
    Your argument is still that Anakin is doomed to turn to the dark side, no matter what happens around him, he will always act a certain way.

    18 would be normal age for choosing to JOIN the Jedi Order.
    The issue is how old Anakin was when he made the choice to join the order and he was far too young to make any kind of informed choice.
    Once he had joined and been with the Jedi for several years, how easy would it be to leave everything?

    And the fear of loss in greatly increased because of the slave, bomb and location.
    So her being somewhere safer and not a slave would reduce the fear.

    Would he have gotten those visions if he had been able to fully let go of his mother?
    If he did not still miss her and worried about her? If was not attached to her in any way?
    If yes, then it doesn't matter what Anakin did over those ten years, he still would have gotten those visions and been tormented by bad dreams.
    If no, then this shows that Anakin has not been able to let go and the reason is because of fear and worry.

    The Jedi have a system that only allow fro very young children to be trained.
    So young that they have no memory of their parents and thus no attachment.
    Would they get visions of their real parents in pain or suffering?
    I rather doubt it.

    You also said that Qui-Gon would never free Shmi as any kind of thank you or sign of gratitude.
    And he would never do this to help Anakin as that would be pandering.
    So why did he do this?
    You claim that Qui-Gon would never do a thing the film shows him trying to do.
    So you can not claim that he would not try again if he had lived.

    Him worrying is very much the problem as it contributes to his actions.
    If a person is worried for an extended period of time then he or she might do something rash.
    If a parent is worried for their child over 2-3 days then they might start to act irrationally.
    Anakin worried for ten years. No wonder he is a bit messed up.

    How could Anakin do something about it sooner?
    He was Obi-Wan's apprentice and went where he went. This was his first solo mission.
    So he could not just leave and go to free her. And you have made it very clear that the Jedi would never give him permission to do this. I am sure he did ask at first but stopped when it became clear that they would not lift a finger to help her.
    So the only way is for him to quit the Jedi order.
    So he is stuck between two things he wants to do, save his mother and become a Jedi.
    And even if he left the Jedi order, he had no money, no means to buy his mother's freedom.

    It is not a non-issue. His actions were partly CAUSED by her being left as a slave and by his unfulfilled promise.
    Why did Lucas have this line in TPM if it was not meant to carry some meaning?
    If Anakin making a promise to come back to free his mother is totally irrelevant, why is it in the film?

    I could say the same.
    The film shows Anakin making a promise to his mother. And it also establishes that Anakin has not had any chance to do something about Shmi until the events of AotC.

    There was nothing passive about Yoda's dire prophet of doom speech.
    And acting on them was not the issue, it was simply having those feelings.
    Yoda did not say "If you act on your fear it can lead to suffering."
    He simply said that fear leads to anger etc.

    I work with teenagers, Anakin's behavior and overall attitude is not normal.
    Also, he is supposed to be 19-20, not 14-15.
    And as you have said several times, Jedi are not supposed to have a number of the "normal" emotions that regular people have.
    Nine year old Anakin had normal attachment to his mother, that was a big enough no-no that the council did not want to train him.
    You can't have it both ways, on the one hand saying that AotC Anakin is just normal teenage behavior and then say that normal human emotions are dangerous to Jedi.

    Again how?
    He was a Jedi pupil and could not leave without their permission. And they would never give it.
    If he quit the order, he still have no money and no means to free his mother.
    Maybe he simply waited until he was a full Jedi knight and could travel on his own.

    And he gave an answer that would have gone totally over the head of nine year old Anakin.
    He knows next to nothing about the Force and most nine year old's won't understand that it is wrong to miss their mother/father.

    And once they did decide to accept him, they should have done a bit more than just think he would be like all their other students that have no memory of their parents and thus no attachment to them.

    Take Luke, did they Jedi change their teaching when it came to him?
    Very clearly. He was way older than Anakin and MUCH older than the regular students.
    And he got what, a few weeks training and that was apparently all that he needed to know to become a Jedi.
    So the training is flexible and not this rigid thing where everyone must be trained in exactly the same way.
    And I think the PT showed just how rigid and inflexible and dogmatic the Jedi order had become and how that blinded them to the Sith.
    And how that was not a good combination with Anakin.
    Take Qui-Gon, he was often at odds with the council and did things his way. And he was still a Jedi.
    And he was prepared to train Anakin despite the council saying no.

    It is not like Qui-Gon had a lot of options there, he was dying.
    And it was not like he had a lot of time to think this through. He had what, a few minutes as he lies there dying.
    As far as he knew, the council was not going to allow Anakin to become a Jedi so the only way was to force Obi-Wan to do it.
    And as others have said, Obi-Wan takes responsibility both in RotS and in RotJ.
    He knows he did not do as a good a job as he wanted to.

    How is worrying about your mother and fearing for her life "easy" and "seductive"?
    Anakin would probably like nothing better than not to have this burden on him.
    The dreams bothered him and he did not want them.

    Nope, lessening them.
    By removing a burden from Anakin's shoulders and to clear his mind and enable him to focus on the task at hand.

    Interesting how you dismiss saving a person from slavery and easing another persons burden as "pandering".
    I would call it being compassionate and caring.
    And again, Anakin does not know she is no longer a slave so that is not relevant.

    Nope, the lessons are clearly not working give how Anakin is behaving and feeling.
    And prior to AotC, he could not act.

    Because they sensed much fear in him?
    So much so that they first rejected him?
    So much so that Yoda went on a dire prophet of doom speech.
    And Anakin is not just some Jedi. He is the most important Jedi alive.
    He and he alone can stop the sith and bring balance the Force.
    If something bad happens to him, not only is that bad for Anakin but the Jedi are now screwed as the sith can not be defeated.

    No, a person is shaped by their environment as much of not more then by their DNA.
    Thus different circumstances will likely lead to different choices being made.

    Newsflash, we are talking about how old he was when he decided to join the Jedi.

    I think he would, he had hope that he could come back and save her. And Qui-Gon had just said that he tried to free her but was unable to at this point. So he had no reason to think that he would be forbidden to help her. Or that Qui-Gon would not try again.

    Nope, very relevant.
    Qui-Gon could clearly see how much this pained Anakin.
    So he would know that Anakin would sooner or later ask if something could be done about his mother.
    Most likely sooner.
    So if Anakin would never be allowed to help his mother and neither he nor any other Jedi would ever try to help her. Then I think he took Anakin away under somewhat false pretenses.

    [/QUOTE]

    So Qui-Gon would throw away the chosen one, the one person who could destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force over something as minor as this?
    Would the Jedi Council?
    If they have a choice, either free one slave or loose their savior and their one chance to stop the sith you think they would rather let the sith win?

    In closing, you talk about tragedy but if Anakin will always act the same way regardless of circumstances.
    That it doesn't matter what happens around him or what other people do.
    He is doomed to do this. Then it is not much of a tragedy.
    It is just inevitable.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
  3. Kladdagh

    Kladdagh Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Oct 9, 2017
    Whould a "Grey Jedi" style of teatching could be a better solution ?
     
  4. darth-skycrawler

    darth-skycrawler Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 7, 2001
    I think Obi Wan wasn't ready to train Anakin. I think a problem in their relationship can be seen by what they say about each other.

    Anakin- "He is like a father to me."
    Obi Wan- "You were my brother, I loved you."

    Obi Wan always saw Anakin as more a little brother. A more talented little brother he was jealous of in TPM, to an annoying, problematic little brother he was forced to look after in AOTC (though he still loved him), to a grown up, equal brother he loved.

    I don't think Obi Wan was ever able to give Anakin the father figure he needed, because he wasn't ready to have a Padawan especially one as challenging as Anakin. Yoda should have trained Anakin.

    The question is whether Qui Gon's more lax attitude to the rules would have helped Anakin accept the jedi way or pushed him quicker to the exit.

    There are two main reasons Anakin seems
    1. To save Padme, he literally makes a deal with the devil
    2. To a lesser extent he has began to doubt the Jedi way is correct or IF the Jedi all truly follow it.

    It could have gone either way with Qui Gon. I am inclined to think that Anakin may have left the order had he been trained by Qui Gon, but not fallen to the darkside.

    Ultimately the choice was Anakin's. Yoda and especially the the Yoda of ESB has the best bet of keeping Anakin in the order and on the lightside.
     
  5. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    Now that I think about it. He might have fallen faster since Qui Gon always went against the council
     
  6. darth-skycrawler

    darth-skycrawler Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 7, 2001
    I am not sure about the falling, but I see him leaving the order perhaps to marry Padme and have a family. Qui Gon may have got through to let go of his attachments and to trust the force.This would definitely see Anakin going against the council repeatedly, but if he could learn to let go, then he probably never goes to the darkside.
     
  7. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    I think it likely that he would have told Qui Gon about Padme
     
  8. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Anakin's obsession with attachment all stems from the death of his mother. If Qui-Gon's training would have done anything to change that situation, it probably could have stopped his fall.
     
  9. DarthKeithSkywalker

    DarthKeithSkywalker Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Oct 5, 2015
    I believe Qui-Gon would have done a far better job than Obi-Wan in training Anakin to become the Chosen One he was meant to be. The Chosen One doesn't have to be a Jedi. So Anakin can leave the Order but return later to create the balance in the Force?
     
  10. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    According to the prophecy from Legends:
    "A Jedi will come
    To destroy the Sith
    And bring balance to the Force."
    - The Great Holocron
    So the Jedi - including Qui-Gon, were acting on the premise that the Chosen One did indeed need to be a Jedi.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2018
  11. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Even that, in Legends, may have been subject to a certain amount of "translation"- in Book of Sith, one of the first ever Sith Lords (or at least, the first that the Jedi Order heard about later as ex-Jedi) - who was exiled from the Republic by the Jedi before the Order of Sith Lords as we know it was founded (by her and other exiles) comments on "the prophesy of Mortis" in which a Chosen one will "destroy the dark side" and "prevent these beings from tearing the galaxy asunder".

    The terms "Jedi" and "Sith" may be after-the-event modifications of the prophesy by translators, from a much older one.

    And in the RoTS novelization, in conversation with Padme - Obi-Wan brings up that "Jedi" is not in the prophesy:

    “Senator—Padmé. Please.” He gazed into her eyes with nothing on his face but compassion and fatigued anxiety. “I am not blind, Padmé. Though I have tried to be, for Anakin’s sake. And for yours.”
    “What do you mean?”
    “Neither of you is very good at hiding feelings, either.”
    “Obi-Wan—”
    “Anakin has loved you since the day you met, in that horrible junk shop on Tatooine. He’s never even tried to hide it, though we do not speak of it. We … pretend that I don’t know. And I was happy to, because it made him happy. You made him happy, when nothing else ever truly could.” He sighed, his brows drawing together. “And you, Padmé, skilled as you are on the Senate floor, cannot hide the light that comes to your eyes when anyone so much as mentions his name.”
    “I—” She lurched to her feet. “I can’t—Obi-Wan, don’t make me talk about this ... ”
    “I don’t mean to hurt you, Padmé. Nor even to make you uncomfortable. I’m not here to interrogate you; I have no interest in the details of your relationship.”
    She turned away, walking just to be moving, barely conscious of passing through the door out onto the dawn-painted veranda. “Then why are you here?”
    He followed her respectfully. “Anakin is under a great deal of pressure. He carries tremendous responsibilities for a man so young; when I was his age I still had some years to go as a Padawan. He is—changing. Quickly. And I have some anxiety about what he is changing into. It would be a ... very great mistake ... were he to leave the Jedi Order.”
    She blinked as though he'd slapped her. “Why—that seems ... unlikely, doesn't it? What about this prophecy the Jedi put so much faith in? Isn't he the chosen one?”
    “Very probably. But I have scanned this prophecy; it says only that a chosen one will be born and bring balance to the Force: nowhere does it say he has to be a Jedi.
    She blinked harder, fighting down a surge of desperate hope that left her breathless. “He doesn't have to—?”
    “My Master, Qui-Gon Jinn, believed that it was the will of the Force that Anakin should be trained as a Jedi—and we all have a certain, oh, I suppose you could call it a Jedi-centric bias. It is a Jedi prophecy, after all.”
    “But the will of the Force—isn't that what Jedi follow?”
    “Well, yes. But you must understand that not even the Jedi know all there is to be known about the Force; no mortal mind can. We speak of the will of the Force as someone ignorant of gravity might say it is the will of a river to flow to the ocean: it is a metaphor that describes our ignorance. The simple truth—if any truth is ever simple—is that we do not truly know what the will of the Force may be. We can never know. It is so far beyond our limited understanding that we can only surrender to its mystery.”
    “What does this have to do with Anakin?” She swallowed, but her voice stayed tight and thin. “And with me?”
    “I fear that some of his current ... difficulty ... has to do with your relationship.”

    If you only knew how much, she thought. “What do you want me to do?”
    He looked down. “I cannot tell you what to do, Padmé. I can only ask you to consider Anakin's best interests. You know the two of you can never be together while he remains in the Order.”
    A bleak chill settled into her chest. “Obi-Wan, I can't talk about this.”
    “Very well. But remember that the Jedi are his family. The Order gives his life structure. It gives him a direction. You know how . . . undisciplined he can be.”

    And that's why he is the only Jedi I could ever love ...
    “Yes. Yes, of course.”
    “If his true path leads him away from the Jedi, so be it. But please, for both of your sakes, tread carefully. Be sure. Some decisions can never be reversed.”
    “Yes,” she said slowly. Feelingly. “I know that too well.”
    He nodded as though he understood, although of course he did not understand at all. “We all do, these days.”
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2018
  12. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    This makes sense. The ancient term for "force user" could have easily been translated to Jedi over the millennia and the true original wording forgotten.
     
    Iron_lord likes this.
  13. MoffJacob

    MoffJacob Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015
    No
    not only that, but Anakin would have led a successful (ehem) Resistance against the unlawful/dictatorial Galactic Empire, becoming Palpatine's worst enemy and nemesis

    as things turned out, Anakin became Palpatine's main henchman, and the role of nemesis was passed onto Luke
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
  14. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Hard to say.

    Only after Qui Gon's death were the council agreeable to his assumptiont that Anakin is the chosen one and that it would be concomitant with that status to induct him as a member of the order. Their resistance to Qui Gon's ideas while he was alive prompted him to take on Anakin as his apprentice even of the council did not intend to admit Anakin into the order.

    After Qui Gon's death, the council simply allow Obi Wan to do what Qui Gon had threatened to do. Anakin still just becomes an apprentice to Obi Wan right away instead of receiving the training from Yoda that all infant Jedi traditionall receive. Even after Yoda identifies this as the training that Anakin appears to need most of all.

    The attitude of the council and their accpetance of Anakin's chosen one status and the Sith's return only due to Qui Gon's death suggests that if Qui Gon hadn't died, the council would not have conceded that Anakin was the chosen one or that Maul was a Sith. So Anakin would still have been fast-tracked as Qui Gon's unauthorised apprentice.

    Would the experienced master Qui Gon have been a better mentor to Anakin than the newly knighted (by default) Obi Wan?

    Or was the decidning factor the witholding/bypassing of the reportedly essential training that infant Jedi traditionally receive from Yoda? (Almost certainly it is according to George Lucas)
     
  15. PadawanGussin

    PadawanGussin Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 6, 2017
    IMO -

    The role of mentor that Palpatine took with Anakin would have been QG. As a teacher Obi Wan was effective in many ways but he could not be the older father type figure for Anakin that would have stabilized him emotionally. With QG gone Palpatine was able to effectively fill that role to push Anakin slowly but inexorably toward his ultimate fall.

    QG would have also been able to be more flexible in how he taught Anakin as he was willing to be more rounded in his approach to all aspects of the Force and to life in general.

    If Qui Gon had lived Anakin would not have fallen. I also suspect that QG would have been more able to sense Palp's true nature as he was operating on a higher level than the rest of the Jedi, including Yoda.
     
  16. Shadao

    Shadao Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2017
    It comes down to learning. The problem with this question is figuring out how do we try to explain why a certain set of different events will change Anakin and not come across as exempting Anakin from blame of the crimes he actually commits. Learning cannot happen in a vacuum. It requires a person to experience something different and gain something from it. That happens all the time in real life. If Anakin had never met Palpatine, would anyone believe that he would become Darth Vader? No, course of not. Likewise, if Luke Skywalker wasn't there to ask his father to return back to the Light, Darth Vader would have still been an evil enforcer to the Empire.

    Experience and learning is key. And when it comes to Qui-Gon, Anakin would experience a very much different teacher than he got with Obi-Wan. Qui-Gon is understanding of Anakin's emotions and even a little self-critical of himself. Unlike Obi-Wan, he is very much aware that Anakin has anger impulses regarding pride according to a deleted scene with Greedo. Qui-Gon would also be more concerned about Anakin himself rather than the state of the galactic bureaucracy if TWC's Mortiss Arc was anything to go by.

    This is something that a father would be concerned about. And fathers are something that Anakin wants in young life if he's going to leave his mother. Qui-Gon would do what's best for Anakin, even if it means breaking the Jedi Code. He will train Anakin like he did with Obi-Wan but whereas Obi-Wan simply taught him the lessons he've learned from Qui-Gon in his mindset, Qui-Gon would train Anakin based on what Anakin needs to become the Chosen One. Additionally, Qui-Gon would also be wary of strangers trying to tempt Anakin with lavish praises, such as the newly elected Supreme Chancellor. No good would ever come from people trying to control Anakin.

    Now, is it possible for Anakin to still fall to the Dark Side? Yes, because joining the Dark Side is still choice that someone freely makes. But I say that Anakin under Qui-Gon would have a better understanding of what the Dark Side truly gives in the end.
     
    Mark Pierre likes this.