Speculation Would Disney Re-Cast Anakin/Darth Vader over using Hayden again?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by clone3131, Jan 15, 2013.

  1. ezekiel22x Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 4
    Christian Bale playing ghost Anakin! I always thought the character would be more likeable, sympathetic, and totally rad if he delivered lines in a severe sore throat voice.
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  2. Darthbane2007 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2007
    star 4
    I mean, I would be fine if he came back as a Force Ghost, provided it was written well into the story...
  3. Samnz Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    1.) His slave background was very relevent and caused his problems with Jedi authorities.You should have made that connection. There are reasons for so called "whining".
    2.) Your statement is imprecise. He didn't kill women and children just for fun (that's what "cool badass" Vader does with his people), he killed members of a species that murdered his mother and tried to kill him numerous times before.
    3.) It's Padmé, not Portman. You have to make that differentiation.
    What's wrong with "being angry is being human?
    I would say your assumption "being angry is being human" = "what you did is human" is wrong.

    Luke forgave his his father for being responsible for the death of planets, of his aunt and uncle, the loss of his hand, torturing his sister etc.
    So why shouldn't Padmé forgive Anakin (especially given the "vicious, mindless monsters" background)?
  4. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I think Lucas assumed that the fandom would understand two things: one, being a slave is really, really bad. It's not OK as long as the slave isn't getting the **** beaten out of him; it's bad, period, end of story, which is why all first-world nations have abolished it. Two, taking revenge on people who kidnap your mother and torture her slowly to death is not OK, but hardly equal to going on a racist joyride to a Tusken day care center and killing kids for the fun of it. Even in the eyes of US law, the sentence for the former is much lighter.
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  5. KevinM1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2012
    star 2
    We're never shown that, however. In TPM, Anakin was quite literally just along for the ride. In AotC, he suddenly has resentment towards the Jedi Code (which, to be fair, is a really dumb code) and Obi-Wan. We're meant to infer the reasons why, but it's just not as good as if Lucas had instead shown us why the changes in Anakin occurred. Instead, we go from, "Mom, you always said that the biggest problem in the galaxy is that no one ever helps each other," and ,"Yippee!" to "It's all Obi-Wan's fault! He's holding me back!," and, "I killed them... I killed them all. And not just the men. The women and the children, too. They're animals! And I slaughtered them like animals!"

    That's... that's quite a shift. One that isn't, IMO, explained in a satisfactory manner. The key to good filmmaking is to show, not tell. We're never shown why Anakin changes so much between films. We can guess and infer, but it's not as satisfying as actually experiencing it.
    Last edited by KevinM1, Jan 16, 2013
  6. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    Don't get me started on the Jedi they are just bad and very very stupid, complete with Bath robes. The knew his Mother was an issue, so leaving aside the moral and ethical issues as they are the guardians of peace and justice are SHOULD be freeing slaves, why did they not simply buy the mother to free her anyway to alleviate his fears on that score.

    If you ever listen to the commentarys on the PT films and listen to the fawning garbage McCullum comes out with, the issue to me was Lucas didn't have a good sounding board to point the obvious issues and plot holes out to him
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  7. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

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    Really? In WWII Patton was ordered to back up Montgomery on their advance toward the Sicilian city of Messina. However, Patton disobeyed the order and advanced ahead of Montgomery and got to Messina first. That was a much bigger infraction than the disagreement Anakin has with the Jedi Council and yet Patton was only ordered to send an apology to Montgomery. Since Anakin immediately apologizes to the Council, I don't think they would court martial him. Punishing someone for voicing their complaints is a bit harsh and Mace did the more prudent thing by chastising Anakin.

    I posted this in another thread but I'll repost it here in response to you:

    Let’s take his line, "I'm a person and my name is Anakin!" That one "simple" line speaks so many volumes to me and clearly shows that he is struggling with being dehumanized. To the world around him he's someone else’s property and not a human being in his own right. Let’s look at his mother, Shmi; she's the one person in his life that loves him unconditionally not because he can offer her something. But she's a slave too and he must live with the fact that she can be taken away from him at any moment and there is nothing he can do about it. So what does that do to someone so young? I think it leaves him without any sense of security which again I don't think you should underestimate. So then he's fortunate enough to meet the Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn and he presents him with the opportunity to escape this miserable life and become a Jedi. But again it's not so easy for Anakin because to do so he must abandon his mother at the age of 9! He must leave the one person who's always cared for him if he is to follow his dreams of becoming a Jedi. But what happens when he gets to the Jedi Temple? He's instantly rejected and told he cannot become a Jedi. IMO this simple scene is so pivotal in Anakin's eventually turn because it creates a relationship of mistrust between Anakin and the Jedi Council (just look at young Anakin's face when Mace Windu says he will not be trained!) So this is the foundation that TPM lays for the other two films IMO.

    Now we get to AOTC and Anakin is Jedi Padawan so his life should be much better, right? But he is plagued by visions of his mother's death and again he is unable to do anything because he is restricted by the Jedi. The one person he cares most for is in mortal danger and he is impotent to do anything about it. He's told by Obi-Wan to basically forget about it and trust the Force! So without any way to help his mother what does he do? He looks for comfort in the only other woman who has shown that she cares about him. But Padme rejects him at first too. Then, still stinging from her rejection, Anakin impulsively decides to abandon his duty to the Jedi and go help his mother. We know how that turns out! He finds his mother tortured and she dies in his arms without even being able to say she loves him. His worst nightmare has come true and not only that but he must now live with the fact that if he had acted sooner perhaps he might not have been able to save her (who knows if he could have or not) but at the very least he could have saved her from more agony! He followed the Jedi Code and now his mother is dead! So he gives in to his anger and his hatred (and who the hell can honestly blame him!) and he goes completely over the line by wiping out an entire village. This scene chilled me when I first saw it because it is so reminiscent of the stories of American troops in Vietnam who massacred villages of innocents. Were those soldiers necessarily evil from the beginning? No, but their experiences in the war traumatized them to the point where they rationalized it. This is the turning point in Anakin's story and everything afterwards continues to escalate.

    And now we arrive at ROTS and Anakin succumbs to the dark side. But what happens in the movie to drive him further down that path? Well he has a wife and a baby is on the way. But he doesn't even get to enjoy this for very long before he is visited by more horrific visions of his wife dying! Now this time around he knows these visions are nothing to take lightly because of his mother and this time he is determined to stop them. So he goes to Yoda and asks for advice but again is given the spiel about letting go of things he cares about and trust the Force (just as Obi-Wan tells him to do in Episode II and we see how that worked for him) but this time that's not good enough. If the Jedi can't help him he is determined to find his own way. Now let's add on the fact of him being put into an immensely difficult position where he must choose between his loyalty to the Jedi Order and Palpatine. Palpatine is a man he trusts and a man who has always shown Anakin that he believes in him, trusts him and cares for him. On the other hand, the Jedi Council has rejected him, been suspicious of him, and shown him little trust. I think there is ample reason why Anakin begins to loose trust in the Jedi. So then Palpatine not only presents a conspiracy theory involving the Jedi (playing on Anakin's own distrust of them) but presents him with a way to save his wife. However, when Palpatine reveals himself to be a Sith Lord with the power (possibly) to save his wife does Anakin immediately turn to the dark side? No, he shows faith in the Jedi and reports to Mace Windu. Does Windu return Anakin's faith by taking Anakin with him? No, he bluntly tells him to stay at the Temple and if his story turns out truthful only than will Anakin gain Windu's trust. Even after turning in his mentor he still can't gain the Jedi Master's trust! So finally when he disobeys Windu's orders and goes to the Chancellor's office what does he find? Mace Windu with his lightsaber to Palpatine's throat ready to cut the Sith Lord down. It is at this moment when Anakin loses all faith in both the Jedi and Palpatine (if Windu is willing to murder Palpatine in cold blood how does that make him any better than the Sith?) and the only one he can still trust in is Padme and so he makes the fateful decision to watch Palpatine murder Windu. After this there is no going back for him and he makes his deal with the devil! As the rest of the movie plays out and Anakin continues to do more horrific things I believe he rationalizes it by telling himself that the Jedi betrayed the galaxy, that the ends justify the means if it ensures peace. Again this is all from (what I believe the movies show at least) Anakin's POV but that doesn't make it any less real for him.

    In the end, I think Anakin is a man so consumed by his fears that he lets them destroy him. He is a man so obsessed with saving the ones he cares about that he ends up destroying them. I don't think there is anything more tragic than turning your friends and loved ones against you and that is exactly what Anakin does.
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  8. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4

    Spoke to me too, That Lucas did terrible job in casting by hiring Jake Lloyd.
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  9. KevinM1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2012
    star 2
    @Darth Chiznuk, I largely agree with you. My main beef is the way it's presented. Contrast Anakin to Spock in the latest Star Trek film. Anakin is primarily a dialogue character. His feelings and POV are largely expressed by him just stating it. Spock is much more effective because we get to see his struggle with trying to fit in. How the other children insulted him, how even his elders looked down on him. How, even though he wishes desperately to be pure Vulcan, he's worried about his mother's feelings.

    That's the difference I'm trying to explain. Anakin's problems are stated (his nightmares about his mother, his resentment towards Obi-Wan, etc.), but we never see them happen in the moment. Really, having a 5-15 minute stretch where we see Anakin growing, actually seeing his nightmares, his failed attempts to get the Jedi to rescue his mother, or at least let him have contact with her, interspersed with him learning the Jedi Code (especially the part about love) would have solved a lot of issues. It would have brought his emotional state to the forefront, and made the death of his mother that much more meaningful for the audience.

    Somewhat related, the Jedi in the PT: The Jedi are supposed to be the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy, but apparently they don't want to come down hard on slavers in the Outer Rim. What the hell are they there for if they're not going to go and right wrongs? Why are they being so unsupportive to a kid who just flew across the galaxy (leaving his only family behind in the process) to join them? Why are they teaching people to ignore/shun emotion rather than to understand emotion and handle it?

    Ugh.

    The Jedi are written so horribly in the PT. That a group of people who take children away from families, teach them that individualized love is bad, and then turn them into soldiers would be presented as the good guys is just mind boggling.

    I hope, hope, hope the ST just forgets about everything when it comes to the way Jedi are written. The Code, the lack of empathy, the stubbornness, doing who-knows-what instead of freeing slaves... the old Jedi were a pretty horrible bunch.
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  10. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

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    Hey that's cool, we all have are own interpretations of things presented to us and that's the fun thing about discussing them. Seeing other people's points of view is really great even if we disagree on things. And I absolutely agree with you that Jedi Order is presented in a very flawed way. But to me that was one of the major points Lucas was trying to get across with the PT. The Jedi Order and Anakin are both deeply flawed and that is why they both fall. But again that's just my own interpretation. [face_peace]
  11. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I don't know, the fact that he went from being a 9- or 10-year-old kid in the first film to a hormonal adolescent in the second film was certainly a satisfactory enough explanation for me.

    I would love to see the EU or one of the future Disney SW films cover the time period between TPM and AOTC, with some focus on Anakin's training, since it is a 10-year time gap and we know very little about it. However, I was in no way expecting AOTC Anakin to act like a taller version of his 9-year-old self and I needed no more explanation for why he didn't.

    I agree with your questions, at least up to the last one (which I'll address in a minute), but I think that's part of the point. I think we watched the OT and then expected the PT Jedi to be perfect "good guys" who were taken out by a perfectly evil "bad guy." We were not expecting them to be flawed, and we were not expecting blind adherence to dogma as one of their flaws.

    However, I don't think they taught people to "ignore" emotion. As I said in another thread, for a thousand years, they have not dealt with anyone who had Anakin's background, and they had no idea how to do so. They all had emotions and they taught their initiates to handle emotions, but they only knew how to teach initiates who had been brought to the Temple as infants with no memories of, much less fears for, their biological parents. Throw in all the emotional issues Anakin experienced due to having been enslaved; I think the Jedi genuinely wanted to help him but they had no more idea how to do so, than I have regarding how to build a time machine from a Delorean.
    Last edited by anakinfansince1983, Jan 16, 2013
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  12. SithLordDarthRichie London CR

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    Oct 3, 2003
    star 8
    The deleted scene of TPM where Anakin fights Greedo should have been included IMO, it showed even as a kid Anakin had a deeper angry side.
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  13. startravellerearth Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2012
    star 1
    I think Anakin deserves to come back but in spirit form, speaking to Luke & Ben Skywalker.
  14. GGrievous Force Ghost

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    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    Comes with his complimentary Batman voice
  15. HanSolo29 Manager Emeritus + Official Star Wars Artist

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2001
    star 6
    Personally, I hope he doesn't come back. My reasoning may be a bit selfish, but I'm not a fan of Hayden as Anakin and I'd rather not see him come back to try and reprise that role.
  16. Lee_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    Agree with this.

    I'll expand on that plus a few other (broad) points that were quite well explained regarding Anakin if you follow some of the more subtle cues from the PT- the Jedi clearly saw his clouded future, his problematic (for a young Jedi) attachment to his mother, and that he was too old to be trained. Obi-Wan sort of forces their hand after Qui-Gon has died, saying he will train Anakin with or without their blessing. We know by this pretext that Anakin probably should NOT become a Jedi; this is WAY out of the mold of who they USUALLY train as a Jedi (and the safe-guards they have built in to make sure they don't train people who become dangerous are passed by for Anakin), so when things start to go wrong, we already know why they are going wrong, really no further explanation is needed as some seem to be saying in this thread. Anakin is full of conflict about his mother, the Jedi, and eventually about Padme. He finally finds some replacement for the attachment to his mother (which was ripped out from under him after a terribly painful childhood as a slave, then taken forever when she is killed) in Padme, and when this finally happens (he doesn't have the tools to cope with the situation as other Jedi who were taken out of reasonably healthy homes at the correct time do), keeping Padme becomes all-consuming; and of course, we all know where that leads. The whole relationship between Anakin's feelings toward Padme and those toward his mother are very Freudian; lots of parallels.

    I think the reasons he turns to the dark side are made quite clear. There is again a lot of subtlety in his gradual turn over 2 movies, I think a lot of people who watch miss the clues. Anakin's conflict grows gradually to a boiling point. Yes, the Jedi don't handle his situation well, but again, it is an atypical situation for them to be handling in the Jedi order (thus it is understandable to make mistakes when handling a situation you have no experience in handling); they don't usually let troubled children become Jedi; troubled children have a way of becoming troubled adults, which is a problem when that adult is a powerful Jedi.
    Last edited by Lee_, Jan 16, 2013
  17. Doug625 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2012
    star 1
    Hayden may not be a great actor, but the dialogue for almost all actors in the PT was pathetic, so I cut him a little slack. I say bring him back.
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  18. Panakas_Dawg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2004
    star 5
    I just never understood why the Jedi never had some kind of on-site counselor to deal with all these young kids with separation issues. Little Ani needed a hug!

    Anyway, I like Hayden as Anakin. AOTC was awesome imo and a fitting entry in the series. Sure, he had dorky lines. But, he was supposed to be the awkward, dorky guy trying to get his move on with Padme and he was written like a Happy Days character, which is so unlike any actual teenager ever. Natalie came across as a cardboard standee of herself in these films. No one was spared: the silly dialogue, the utter lack of some deep "Stanislavsky" method-acting, and the inhumanly insurmountable task of squeezing an entire person's life story into three films (while showing his mother dying, his being mistrusted by the Jedi - real or perceived, his falling in love, his learning the Jedi Way, his rebelliousness, his hanging out with a creepy old guy in a robe who whispers Sithiness in his ear, his misguided judgment...etc). That is a whole lotta skimming and overview and I think he did fine with what was handed him. I don't care what he's done or not done since. I mean, does Peter Mayhew get the fans lining up because of anything besides Chewie? His IMDB listing is nothing but different places he's played Chewie.

    Hayden is the Official Face of Anakin as per Lucas and the Elder Gods on Mount GFFA. If Anakin pops up, it should be Hayden.
  19. Crankcase Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 2012
    star 1
    Fair enough. I'll rephrase.

    "Most people don't like Hayden's performance in Star Wars".

    Are we good now. ;)
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  20. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

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    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    No, we're not good.

    As long as anyone continues to speak for anyone else, much less millions of people, without meeting (or even trying to meet) the burden of evidence, we're not going to be good.

    But I suspect you know this.
    Last edited by CT-867-5309, Jan 17, 2013
  21. Crankcase Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 2012
    star 1
    OK. I'm not going to argue.
    I just made a conclusion based on my experience. I'm yet to meet a person I know who liked Hayden in the PT. But maybe it's just me. :cool:
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  22. Lee_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    Maybe it is.

    People who have seen the PT= millions, people you know, even if you know more than most people = unrepresentative sample of the general population, too small of a sample size to judge the larger population.
    Any site that samples people pretty much has a majority who like the PT. These are not scientific polls, but still rather large one. There are many who don't like it, but over half do, which makes a majority.
  23. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    @Crankcase....well your on a Star Wars forum bud, with plenty of people telling you they enjoyed Hayden's performance in the prequels.
  24. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

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    Hello, it's nice to meet you... ;)
  25. windu4 Force Ghost

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    May 15, 2008
    star 4
    How about "many" people dislike Hayden's performance in the Prequel Trilogy.
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