Would faking Thrawn's comeback again scare the Vong????

I must respectfully take issue with your arguments:
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1. Last time I checked, heroin didn't have much "popular support." Compared to the general population, which sees the narcotic as a bad thing, heroin users and pushers are a very small minority. Not the the best of analogies there.
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2. As for Zahn's "unoriginal characters": Thrawn, Pellaeon, Karrde and the pirates, Mara Jade, Joruus C'baoth, the Noghri, Fey'lya, Bel Iblis, and all the rest are "wholly unoriginal" characters? Quite the contrary. Your personal animosity toward Zahn is, I think, clouding your thinking. Of all the SW books, the five by Zahn are ones I've enjoyed the most. And, from what I read on this forum, I'm not in the minority. And I'm not even a heroin user, LOL!
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If Zahn has said anything to put down other EU authors, I don't applaud that. I'm going to re-read the Zahn interviews tonight to get the full context. But regardless, that has nothing whatsoever to do with the originality of his characters or the quality of his work.

 

kz...
"1. Last time I checked, heroin didn't have much "popular support." Compared to the general population, which sees the narcotic as a bad thing, heroin users and pushers are a very small minority. Bad analogy."

Nope, the analogy is right on target. Compared to the "general SW population," which sees the EU as either a bad or indifferent thing, Thrawn fans and gushers are a very small minority of "SW fans."

"2. As for Zahn's "unoriginal characters": Thrawn, Pellaeon, Karrde and the pirates, Mara Jade, Joruus C'baoth, the Noghri, Fey'lya, Bel Iblis, and all the rest are 'wholly unoriginal' characters?"

Yes, especially Mara Jade. There has existed a red-headed special Imperial agent who was commanded to destroy Luke Skywalker but ended up romancing him about a decade prior to Mara Jade. Mara Jade is wholly unoriginal and a complete knockoff. There existed red-eyed, blue-skinned alien Imperial Commanders about a decade before Thrawn was a twinkle in Zahn's eyes. There existed a mysterious alien species of well-skilled fighters enslaved by Vader through trickery to use as his own private army more than a decade before Zahn stole the concept and called them "Noghri." There existed the fringer-extraordinaire, and chief smuggler/information-broker Rik Duel long before Talon Karrde stole his act... No, Zahn wasn't original in the least. It actually seems that you're the one letting bias overcome rationality...

"Of all the SW books, the five by Zahn are ones I've enjoyed the most. And, from what I read on this forum, I'm in the majority on that one."

Nope - you can't really claim anything like that. You can claim you like his works the best, but you have no idea regarding numbers outside of that.

"And I'm not even a heroin user, LOL!"

However, all of this is really off-topic. We really ought to take this to the thread I referred to instead of taking this one over.

 

"Thrawn who???"

"We do not know of or care about this Thrawn. Is it a planet or something, its probably just infidel dung, you know how they are."

"Oh You mean the blue skined pisant in Nom Anor's report. Hah He's laughable at best."

"We've already acomplished what he couldn't, broken the New Republic."

 

There has existed a red-headed special Imperial agent who was commanded to destroy Luke Skywalker but ended up romancing him about a decade prior to Mara Jade.

Then again, Luke may just have 'thing' for red-heads. My brother sure does. He's dated every red-haired, blue-eyed airhead in town.

 

The wheel is still running, but the hamster is dead.

 

*is very confused* I thought that he had practically ignored stuff, now you are telling me that he copied stuff, are you sure about that? I highly doubt that Zahn, seriously ZAHN, read and researched previous EU material. It litteraly boggles the mind to discover that he had researched the EU before writing the TTT. Oh well if Genghis says so I guess it's possible.....

 

This is my first time to post here so forgive me if I am out of line, but I have a really hard time understanding why so many of you hate Zahn and his characters. In my opinion Thrawn was an aweswome character, the Nogrhi are an asset to the expanded universe, and I am not even going to have to mention the importance of the twins, Mara, or Karrde. Are you people seriously saying that Zahn is the worst EU writer and that his characters have no meaning? That's retarded to the very core! The man also came up with Coruscant! He is an asset to the EU!

I will agree, on the other hand, that to bring Thrawn back would be dumb. It would not fit into the VOng invasion at all. However it would be cool to have the Empire under Palleon's (sorry about the poor spelling) leadership get involved. Time will tell.

Oh, another topic that I am interested in getting all of your views on is the invasion of Coruscant. I think that this had much more significance then even Anakin's death. We're talking about the capital of the Republic. That totally rocks the foundation of the universe that we all love. What do you all think?

 

Thrwn might come back, but not in a physical form.(You know how star wars does that certain point of view thing). If he was half as smart as we all think he is, then he would have kept a few ships laying around somewhere for someone to find, maybe the chiss have large shipyards just sitting there. I am suprised Chissdude hasn't posted on this one.

 

Vezner, don't worry, most of us love Zahn's books (well, at least the trilogy) and characters. Only a select few do not like them. On the other hand, while I like those books, given some facts about what Zahn said, I am obliged to agree he's got a gigantic ego, and that he believes the EU is his, when it isn't. And that is BAD.

 

Zahns cool, he really saved the EU, no matter what Genghis says.

 

Ah, Genghis, good sir and worthy opponent...
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Your assumption is not backed up by any data. I checked a thread which asked what EU books people here liked best. While hardly empirical data, the answers were somewhat illuminating. 20 posters listed Zahn books as their favorites. All the other authors' books were cited by 27. Of those who did not list a Zahn book as their favorite, 7 listed them as being in their top 5. So a clear majority likes the Zahn books. But, like I said before, these aren't statistically valid datapoints. Perhaps the mods would allow a little poll to settle this once and for all?
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So you think Mara Jade's character is a ripoff. What about Karrde? Aves? Chin? Pellaeon? Thrawn? Fey'la? Garm? Torve? Ralraa? Salporin? And that's just a few. As for Mara, so she bears a resemblance to a minor character which appeared in something other than a major EU book. All authors have influences. GL himself seems to have borrowed some from classical Greek mythology, but he is rarely hammered for it.
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So you don't like Zahn. That's fine by me. Although I disagree with you about his worth as an author, I support and defend your right to have your opinions and to voice them. But when I think you're being unfair to Zahn and wrong about the amount of support he has on this forum, I'll jump on the soapbox. Ah, spirited discussion! I love it, LOL.
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Regards, sir, and have a happy new year.

 

I'm pretty sure they don't 'fear' to begin with.

What happened to Flim anyways?

 

He's doing some Off-Broadway work now.

 

Lucas has also admitted to being influenced by Greek mythology, as well as every major world religion and several other world mythologies.

If you're looking for a good debate, trust me, Genghis will give you one. But if you're looking to force your will on him (which you're not trying to do), you'd have better luck doing so with a stonewall. Genghis will stick to his guns on certain things, and Zahn is one of them. However, he is a very knowledgeable member of this forum, and has earned the respect of several folks. While he may sometimes butt heads with those who respect him, and those who he respects, he'll usually help you out if you ask for help on a certain topic.

 

Knight, I have the utmost respect for G. And agree that he's a veritable fountain of knowledge and a very intelligent person. And you are correct in assuming that I do not wish to force my will on him. My only quarrel with him is over his attacks on Zahn. Personally, I don't think Zahn set the stars in the sky or anything. It's just that his SW books are the yardstick for me to measure all the others. Though I find them interesting reading, they come up short compared to Zahn's. I don't think G's being fair to this author. He has every right to dislike Zahn and every word the author has put in print. This isn't about me trying to convince Genghis to convert to my way of thinking. I couldn't do that even if I wished to, which I don't I do think it would be a shame for someone to miss out on some great reading based on his putdowns of Zahn, however. And I think he is just plain wrong in his implication that most people here don't share my enjoyment of Zahn's contribution to the EU. As a respected and influential poster here, his anti-Zahn bias could lead a newbie to pass up the trilogy and duology. I still feel that his opinion of Zahn is in the minority here, but that could only be proven or rebutted by a poll, and then only if most posters would vote on it. While The Crystal Star, for example, isn't in my top ten list of SW novels, I'm not gonna flame Vonda McIntyre (or any other EU author). She's won a Hugo and a Nebula; I haven't. Zahn is also a Hugo winner, and his Thrawn Trilogy books were all best-sellers. Those are impressive credentials for any writer. So when G slams Zahn, and contends that his books are not enjoyed by most people here, I will take him to task for it, and even postulate that they are among the favorites. But I try to do so with respect and no malice on my part. "We just disagree." ( From an old Dave Mason song) Regards...

 

Sorry I've been missing this. (Thanks, Knight )

kz...
"My only quarrel with him is over his attacks on Zahn. Personally, I don't think Zahn set the stars in the sky or anything."

That's good to know. Despite the beliefs of some around here, he didn't.

"It's just that his SW books are the yardstick for me to measure all the others."

They are for me too - just in probably a different way. However, don't allow your own pro-Zahn bias cloud your perception of reality.

"Though I find them interesting reading, they come up short compared to Zahn's.

We can't debate opinion. It's nice you think so highly of his books.

"I don't think G's being fair to this author. He has every right to dislike Zahn and every word the author has put in print."

I'm being more than fair to the author. However, at every chance he gets, even at recent conventions this year, he still manages to take time out to slam the more professional SW authors.

"And I think he is just plain wrong in his implication that most people here don't share my enjoyment of Zahn's contribution to the EU."

Nope. Quite simply, by "here" I mean JC. I mean "SW fandom." When it comes down to it, with even the most liberal estimates of novel sales at anywhere from 10M to 60M total novels sold for the franchise in 24 years, that puts the numbers of SW novel fans in a very small minority of the overall class of "SW fans." Out of those novels, again Zahn accounts for an even smaller minority. Therefore, the numbers of Zahn-fans as compared to the number of SW-fans is about statistically nil.

"As a respected and influential poster here, his anti-Zahn bias could lead a newbie to pass up the trilogy and duology."

Unfair. Whenever the topic of "What should I read" comes up, I generally tell people to read it all - in actual order of release.

"I still feel that his opinion of Zahn is in the minority here, but that could only be proven or rebutted by a poll, and then only if most posters would vote on it."

It wouldn't be proven by any poll here. With the numbers of sock puppets, etc., polls here mean nothing.

"While The Crystal Star, for example, isn't in my top ten list of SW novels, I'm not gonna flame Vonda McIntyre (or any other EU author)."

The difference is that I do not criticize Zahn for any "taste" or "opinion" issues. I criticize Zahn for objective issues and statements he's made. On a taste issue, his novels don't do anything for me at all. On the more serious issue of "SW issues" like continuity, etc., he factually has done extensive damage. Now, it can be debated if such things like "continuity" are a "taste" issue, but even LFL puts a lot of weight on such things. Therefore, it's reasonable to assume it is important to "Star Wars."

"Those are impressive credentials for any writer."

I don't doubt that Zahn is popular among fans and critics. My point is that yes, he's a writer. But, by his words and actions, I don't think he's a very professional one.

"So when G slams Zahn, and contends that his books are not enjoyed by most people here, I will take him to task for it, and even postulate that they are among the favorites."

They aren't enjoyed by "most people." They're enjoyed by a small minority of SW fans who like the EU and like the EU novels. If we're just talking the extremely small, limited number of people who post in Lit, I agree his name comes up a lot. But so do a whole lot of other authors - Troy Denning being a recent notable author.

My point is I can speak for myself and you can speak for yourself, but the second you try and claim some segment of fandom is behind you, your argument will not hold unless you have true numbers to back it up. When it comes to SW fans as a whole, Zahn does not have those numbers.

 

Did this thread all of a sudden turn into a Zahn debate between Genghis and kz1000_jay? I don't really care, but I just want to know.

On the topic that this thread started on, Thrawn coming back wouldn't be a good thing, and really wouldn't matter. He based his strategy on the species and their blind spots in combat. So far, the only blind spot the Vong have are in the force, and they are getting past that problem pretty well I would say.

On the Zahn topic, I personally thought that his books were great, well TTT anyway. HoT was just too long and got boring. However, Zahn as a person was never really a facorite of mine. I don't really see why Genghis hates his books so much. Read them for the content, not because of your like and dislike of an author.

 

Get back on topic? Sure. As much as I enjoy Zahn's books, Thrawn has served his purpose. We don't need him back. Besides, "He's still dead, Jim." So far, we have seen Thrawn, a Thrawn imposter, and the Thrawn clone. The clone was destroyed by the fusion reactor's explosion. That's enough of ol' Red Eyes, thank you.

 

Well, we hadn't Thrawn's ghost yet...

 

Wow kz1000 it looks like that thar Ghengis fella has yall over a barrel.

 

Over a barrel? Not in the least. The main argument was over the amount of popular support for Zahn's books here. I originally stated that I felt most people here liked his books. Genghis disputed that. I proposed that the mods allow us a poll to settle that issue. Genghis says the use of "socks" here would not make the results of a poll accurate. I can't dispute that. Personally I don't use socks (on the net, at least), but if it's so easy to do, I wonder why it is allowed. Now Genghis says his main problem with Zahn is that author's comments disparaging other SW authors. All I have seen in the way of comments from Zahn are three rather frank interviews elsewhere on this site. I've seen a lot of author-slamming on this discussion forum, and I have spoken up against it. If Zahn did it, I don't approve. But it in no way affects my opinion of his work, which speaks for itself. I have enjoyed the work of more than one author, musician or artist who has said or done things I personally don't approve of. I'm not gonna stop liking the work of someone just because I think they're a son of a Hutt.

 

kz...
"But it in no way affects my opinion of his work, which speaks for itself."

The problem is that the two - Zahn, the author and Zahn's work - cannot be divorced from one another. It was Zahn, the author who fought for his creation to win out with Luke. So, for some 5 years, other authors had their hands tied and their works suffer because of it. It was Zahn, the author who holds the incorrect belief that Jedi can't be powerful and wrote his works accordingly, incorrectly. It was Zahn, the author who had no concept of continuity and his works suffered because of it. It was Zahn, the author who even recently disparaged his fellow Star Wars authors as "liars and connivers" for writing that Mara Jade was not the only Emperor's Hand. It is Zahn, the author who cannot work within another's franchise. It is Zahn, the author who feels the need to ignore Star Wars items and concentrate on "Zahn-Star-Wars" items instead.

And all of these have a bearing on Zahn's work within that franchise. It would be completely different if Zahn was professional enough to set aside his personal beliefs when writing Star Wars. But, he is not capable in 5 novels of doing so.

So, the problems of Zahn, the author become the problems of his work.

 

Here we go again...
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"By 'here,' I mean JC. I mean SW fandom." Ah, but when I said "here," I meant here, where we are, the Literature section of the EU Forum, where people might be who have actually read Zahn's novels. From what I hear, many on the Movie section don't read any of the books.
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"...the number of Zahn-fans compared to the number of SW-fans is about statistically nil." Not fair. How can someone have an opinion of Zahn's work if they haven't read it, much less the work of other EU authors? As you point out, most SW fans haven't read the EU novels. They why when I said "here," I meant those of us who read the books and frequent this place. My original point was that, most people who read Zahn's books enjoyed them. You say it can't be proven by a poll, because this place allows the use of socks. If that is so, neither can it be proven to the contrary.
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"I'm being more than fair to the author." Now whose bias is clouding their perception of reality? Please look back over your own posts. You have a history of Zahn-bashing.
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"I don't doubt that Zahn is popular among fans and critics..." Thank you, sir! That was my whole contention in the first place. And with that concession, I'll say that I agree that Zahn was wrong to slam other EU authors. But I just like his books. I don't want to have a few beers with him and throw darts or anything. Perhaps he's not a nice guy. Perhaps he's mostly OK, but just doesn't know when to quit talking in an interview when he's also having a bad day. I don't know. I judge his work on its own merits, not on statements he may or may not have made in an interview or at a convention.

 

Always good to see a debate that doesn't become a flame war. While I do not wish to get involved in this debate, I will add this, however. It seems that there are numerous folks around here who believe that the EU began with the Thrawn Trilogy. (I'll admit that I once thought so, despite the fact that I had proof on hand to the contrary. Yet now I know longer think that.) However, this overlooks things such as the Marvel comics, SotME, the Han Solo Adventures, the Lando Calrissian Adventures, and various games. As I always consider the novelizations to be EU as well as novelizations (since they do include things that don't appear in the movies), I'd say the EU began in December of 76. The official beginning date may not have been then, but it certainly was in the 70s.

 

More allegations, more rebuttals...
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1. "It was Zahn, the author who fought for his creation to win out with Luke."
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Ok, and that's a bad thing because...? I don't see anthing wrong with fighting for what you want and what you believe in. And if by "his creation" you mean Mara, are you now saying she is indeed Zahn's creation? Earlier, you said he copied her character from someone else. He bargained with Lucasfilm for the character, and they OK'd it. What's wrong with that?
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From Greg Oliver: "After he accepted the the opportunity to write the final two books in early 1994, the other authors were filled in by Lucasfilm."
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And Zahn: "[The other authors] knew where the saga was going to end up. they knew what they could or couldn't do with Mara and Karrde. It was a reasonably well-coordinated effort... When [Stackpole] was doing the X-Wing books, he was one of the few authors who actually called me to ask if he could borrow Talon Karrde and discuss with me what he wanted to do with him in a given scene, and check if I thought that was reasonable for Karrde's character... It wasn't necessary, because Lucasfilm owns all these characters, but it was a nice, polite thing to do." Source: TZ interview by Greg Oliver (Jam!)
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Seems to me your criticism would be better directed at Lucasfilm than Zahn. After all, they were the final authority, with approval over both outlines and manuscripts.
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2. "It was Zahn, the author who holds the incorrect belief that Jedi cannot be powerful."
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You are just wrong here, my worthy opponent. If you had said that Zahn believes Jedi cannot be powerful enough to suit Genghis, I wouldn't contest that statement. In TTT, we have C'baoth coordinating Thrawn's attacks, not an insignificant use of the force. We also have Luke being powerful, to the point where.. "With the force to guide his hand, he could have held out against them indefinately." Another example is when Luke in his X-Wing leads Mara's ship away from the pirate base though an asteroid field with ease in the HOT duology. That's only three examples. There's lots more, if you want 'em.
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Zahn's own thoughts on the matter: "One of the dangers you have with a 'superman' type character is making them too powerful.... The danger of that is, the books get boring. 'Why can't he just wave his hand and fix the problem on page four?'" - Source: TZ interview, 2/00, by Chris Knight
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And again: "Part of the way I got around the superpower problem is that Luke is not invincible. He does not have superspeed, and if he has enough people shooting at him, he will be overwhelmed, despite his Jedi powers... If the emperor could fly out of the reactor shaft, he should have done so." Source: Waldenbooks' premiere issue of Hailing Frequencies.
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And: "Superman is hard to write, after all, without kryptonite... I disagree with making any Jedi too powerful- again referencing back to the limits implied in the movies." Source: TZ Chat transcript
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I'm not sure here that I know what you want the Jedi to be? Mortals with force abilities? Gods? Something in between?
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3. "It was Zahn, the author who had no concept of continuity, and his works suffered because of it."
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As for being in sync with the movies: "I was trying to match the style of the movies to my writing." Source: TZ interview with Greg Oliver (Jam!)
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Just as he was trying to keep force abilities consistent with that implied in the movies.
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Again: "...where I had seen all the Star Wars movies 'X' number of times, I'd heard them 'X plus five or ten times.' Which meant that without the distractions of the visuals, I listened to Han and Leia and Luke talk, and I think that kind of ingrained itself into my mind such that when I started writing the Star Wars books, I had a very good feel as to how they sounded, how they phrased things, and I could put that into the dialog." Source: TZ Interview, 2/00 by Chris Knight
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And with the games: "I try to keep up the the West End Games source material. Other than that,