PT Would it have been better if Dooku was given screentime in EP I?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Slowpokeking, Nov 12, 2013.

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  1. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    We do because there is none until the end of RotS, and Dooku became Sith for a different reason, it has more to do with politics and the Jedi Order's problem.

    Sidious also needed such a figure to lead the CIS since he could not always stay with the CIS leaders, to control the war to the "right" direction. A charming, wealthy, once Jedi Master was perfect to do the job.
  2. Chewbacca89 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2012
    star 5
    I must be having a brain fart. What reveal?
  3. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    No they don't. There is no reason they need a Jedi to turn before Anakin does in the PT. And there is no reason he needs a former Jedi to be figure head, or a Sith for that matter.
  4. Chewbacca89 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2012
    star 5
    You're not making any sense. Do you even Star Wars?
  5. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    Of course they do, to show the problem of the Jedi Order didn't just have conflict with Anakin.

    Since he once was a Jedi, his defection is a big blow to the Jedi Order and the Republic itself, and he could sway more people to the CIS, Maul could not do such job. He was cunning in TCW but he could not be the "face" of CIS to sway people.
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  6. Chewbacca89 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2012
    star 5
    I agree. By showing someone besides Anakin falling to the dark side and leaving the Jedi, we are shown a better picture of how faulty the Order was...
  7. Carbon1985 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2013
    star 3
    Should have show Dooku on the council in Episode I, so we see him as a good guy. And for anyone who talks about the mystery of Dooku in Episode II, you can't have it both ways, because watching the movies 1-6 pretty much spoils any mystery of 4-6, so take it or leave it. ;)
  8. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    I don't really care whether they kept Maul around to lead the CIS in AOTC, or had they replaced Maul with Dooku in TPM to be the bad guy, but I didn't like the turnover in villains in the PT from episode to episode.

    For instance I felt like Grievous could have been introduced in AOTC as well.

    And I definitely feel like Maul could have led the CIS, not as a public figure, but as a figure behind the scenes telling puppet leaders what to do (like what he does in TCW on Mandalore). There was no reason they HAD to introduce Dooku or make a Jedi fall in the prequels prior to Anakin.

    Things would have played out differently for sure, but the same outcome could have been achieved.

    For instance, Maul is "killed" in TPM. A politician is introduced in AOTC that calls for a vote of no confidence in Palpatine because of his inability to deal with crises in the Outer Rim. The vote is defeated, but Outer Rim territories begin to secede from the Republic in protest. Obi-Wan in pursuit of Jango goes to Geonosis and sees Maul alive in a conference with the CIS leaders explaining their next move. During the Battle of Geonosis, the Jedi try to apprehend Maul but he gets away. The Jedi accuse a Sith of leading the CIS, and they voluntarily take up the position of Republic generals after initially telling Palpatine that they are not soldiers.

    To the Republic it looks like the Jedi are on a witch hunt and taken high ranking military positions to increase their own power. Maul is killed in ROTS, the Jedi want the war to end, but the Senate wants the war to keep going since they see Grievous as the real threat. Then ROTS continues as usual from there.

    There is no reason that the same basic story could not have been told without Dooku.

    Instead of being a public figurehead, Maul would have been the "phantom menace" that the Jedi are trying to hunt while the rest of the Republic questions whether he even exists.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Nov 18, 2013
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  9. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    Sidious needed a public figurehead, to sway more people to the CIS' side to be powerful enough to rival the Republic, they don't need a figure behind the scenes because Sidious himself was doing the job.

    Of course they have a reason, because they wanted to show flaw of the Republic and Jedi Order, the problem occurred long before Anakin joined the Order.
  10. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Wonderful idea @TaradosGon! I like it a lot. That's the way I would do it as well.
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  11. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4

    There is no reason a charismatic non-Force using figurehead could not have been the public face of the CIS. Sidious was not on site, he merely contacted them via hologram from time to time. Maul would have been his representative ensuring that orders were obeyed and the plan carried out.

    They WANTED to show the flaw of the Republic and Jedi Order, they didn't NEED to. It didn't add anything fundamentally important IMO. In Lucas' own words he wanted a Jedi turned Sith to serve as a precedent that Anakin would follow. That was unnecessary. Making Dooku the first Jedi turned Sith in over 1,000 years instead of Anakin doesn't really add anything substantial.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Nov 18, 2013
  12. Chewbacca89 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2012
    star 5
    Wrong. Thats a terrible idea because it does nothing to show the flaws of the Jedi Order.
  13. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4

    Anakin falling shows the flaws of the Jedi Order. The fact that the senate cheers when Palpatine declares that the Jedi will be hunted down shows the flaws between the Jedi and Republic. Why must there be a precursor? Would going back and showing that a Jedi fell to the Dark Side prior to Dooku make the story fundamentally better?
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Nov 18, 2013
  14. Chewbacca89 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2012
    star 5
    It would make Dooku's better, but probably not Anakin's. For instance, Plaguies did a great job of making Dooku's story better.
  15. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    Dooku was once a revered Jedi Master, thus his presence itself was a mock to the Republic. Sidious was behind the formation of Gunray's leadership of the Trade Federation. Of course he was holding the rein, but not control the war well without other's help.

    Why? The PT was about Anakin, the Old Republic and the Jedi Order's downfall, it's crucial to show the Republic and the Order's problem. There were quite a few Jedi left the Order and turned to the Dark Side, just didn't become Sith because the Sith had not revealed themselves yet.
  16. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    But it wasnt faulty until Anakin came along and broke the rules.


    Yes I do, do you?


    But we don't see Dooku's conflict with the Jedi. The character is way to under developed to have any impact. And from an in-universe perspective, there is no reason Palpatine NEEDS a former Jedi, nor is it a case of "Maul or a former Jedi". Palpatine could have used one of the leaders of the worlds who joined the Seperatists. The Leaders of the Trade Federation. An actor he hired an fed lines though. A hologram that he controlled. etc... He didn't NEED a Jedi.
  17. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    They do because I know some.

    So?

    No, you can't. You don't know the amount of people who have seen Star Wars. Even if you did, you still wouldn't know how many of those people have made their opinion known. And even if you did know that, you still wouldn't be able to collect all of them or expect them to be the majority. Not to mention not everyone would share the same opinion.

    Even if true (and nobody can claim that), it's irrelevant because appealing to the majority is not a valid argument nor makes their opinion a fact.
  18. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Eh maybe not but we get one 1 in your face villain like Vader was in the OT. Palpatine pulling the strings behind the scenes is awesome and all but we get 3 in your face villains as well if you will. Maul, Dooku and Grievous. Except all 3 are lacking imo. Nothing like Vader. Inserting Dooku in TPM and Grievous in AOTC would help as well. Nothing could help Maul unless he somehow survived TPM. Though that would change the baddie complexion of the PT. Maybe have him somehow help the heroes but gets uncovered? I don't know.
  19. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    Which is what I'm talking about, they should have given him scenes in EPI.

    Dooku himself was the leader of Serenno, one of the most important planets in the galaxy, and he was very very wealthy. This, plus his former Jedi background and his charisma, made him the perfect tool of Palpatine to lead the CIS.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, Nov 18, 2013
  20. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    I don' tknow if you really know anyone like that. I've NEVER heard that opinion anywhere.

    And if your position is its impossible to gauge the opinion/attitude of the majority, how can you argue that the PT isn't viewed by most as inferior to the OT?

    I get that youlike the PT, I like the PT too (just not a smuch as the OT), but sticking your head in the sand and pretending that the majority opinion out there is that the PT is the weaker of the two.....its just silly.
  21. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    Had Maul not survived through to ROTS, then alternatively I think the route they should have taken would be to have made Dooku the bad guy from the start. Maul didn't do a whole hell of a lot in TPM. He looked intimidating, said a handful of lines, had a cool lightsaber fight and then was killed.

    They could have established that there was a "Darth Tyranus" in TPM. Perhaps Amidala is aware that the Trade Federation has been in contact with Darth Tyranus but Qui-Gon, recognizing that as a Sith name, dismisses it as impossible since they are extinct. Darth Tyrannus keeps his face disguised (perhaps behind a mask like Revan or Nihilus). When he attacks Qui-Gon on Tatooine, Qui-Gon begins to believe Amidala and reports it to the Council who is reluctant to believe it.

    Make Dooku a Jedi Council member who takes Qui-Gon's side and is frustrated by the Council's doubts.

    During the Battle on Naboo, Tyranus kills Qui-Gon but escapes. His identity is never revealed.

    Dooku and Palpatine are both present at Qui-Gon's funeral.

    In AOTC we find out that Dooku is leading a CIS and on Geonosis he vents his frustration to Obi-Wan that a Sith killed Qui-Gon and the Jedi didn't do more to find this Sith and destroy him. He then makes the same offer to Obi-Wan about allying together to destroy the Sith. Dooku appears very much like a well intentioned political idealist and not a true bad guy.

    But then at the very end we hear Sidious say "welcome home Tyranus" and we realize that Dooku was the bad guy from the first movie and that he killed Qui-Gon and was ironically disgusted that the Jedi Council didn't do more to avenge his former apprentice.

    One major thing that would have to be changed would be that Jango could not tell Obi-Wan he was hired by Tyranus, since that would give everything away. Dialogue could be changed to make it so that Jango was hired by the Kaminoans and he denies ever having met Sifo-Dyas personally.

    But I really didn't like how shallow of a character Maul was, then how much they set Dooku up in AOTC only for him to be killed off so quickly in ROTS. And how they didn't introduce Grievous until too late in the game IMO (he should have been introduced among the CIS leaders on Geonosis and been active in that battle).

    I don't care had Maul's role been expanded and Dooku got the boot, or vice versa, but I feel like they should have gotten more mileage out of the PT villains.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Nov 18, 2013
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  22. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    Thats the lesser of two possibilities. The better option is keep Maul alive (given how popular he was, how iconic his look was), and have him continue on through the PT as the main villain, and just don't bother creating Dooku since he isn't needed. Give fewer characters more time.
  23. Chewbacca89 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2012
    star 5
    Are you kidding me? You don't think the Jedi Order was faulty until Anakin "broke it?" ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!
  24. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    I don't see Maul could be a better choice to control the CIS, he was never truly trained to be a real Sith Lord, just an assassin for Sidious to do the infiltration and killing which Sidious himself couldn't risk his identity to do so. Thus his role is greatly limited unless he goes on his own like in TCW.
  25. Chewbacca89 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2012
    star 5
    This is true. Maul was never meant to be a part of the Grand Plan.
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