PT Would it have been better if Dooku was given screentime in EP I?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Slowpokeking, Nov 12, 2013.

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  1. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    They were the guardians of peace and justice for 1,000 generations until Anakin showed up and broke it.


    You keep connecting these two. They don't have to be one in the same.

    And this "he was just an assassin" stuff is just EU fluff.
  2. Chewbacca89 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2012
    star 5
    Are you like 12 years old? You either have to be really naive or a child to truly think that. The Jedi were at massive war with Sith just 1000 years BBY. They have involved in conflicts and "local wars" on and off since then. If they are so perfect, as you seem to think, then explain Dooku leaving in the first place.
  3. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    Well Sidious needed someone like Dooku to do the job for him.

    It also would have made little sense if Sidious kept Maul to be his apprentice with his big failure to kill the two Jedi, force Padme to sign the treaty and got badly injured. He wasn't the Chosen One.
  4. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    There was no guarantee that Anakin would join Palpatine. I don't feel like Palpatine would have been smart to put all his eggs in one basket. There was always that chance that Anakin, like Luke, would turn around and tell Palpatine to go to hell.

    So I have to believe that at any given time Palpatine was putting full effort into his apprentices. Because what if Maul had succeeded on Naboo and Dooku was unwilling to join him? He would have had a contingency plan for that. And what if Anakin refused to join Palpatine or refused to kill Dooku? Then Palpatine would have been stuck with Dooku (or even no apprentice) depending on the time frame.

    I can't imagine that Palpatine would sink decades of training into Maul with the intention of casting him aside, or that he would train Dooku with the expectation of rendering him expendable.

    I feel like Palpatine would have to face the possibility that if things don't pan out the way he wants, he could have been stuck with Maul or Dooku, and thus wouldn't short change himself by expecting them to die.

    Palpatine seems pragmatic. If a better apprentice comes along, then great. But if that person is unwilling to join him, then he has to make do with what's available to him. When Luke refused to kill Vader and become Palpatine's new apprentice, I suspect that the expectation was that Vader would have remained Palpatine's apprentice.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Nov 18, 2013
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  5. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

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    Aug 23, 2013
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    No he doesn't. He could have done it himself with some holo-disguise on. He could have used the Trade Federation leaders as his puppet leaders.

    Maul did kill Qui-Gon. And Palpatine kept Vader around after he failed to capture Luke, and after he failed to prevent the Death Star from being destroyed. When Palpatine started training Maul he wouldn't have known about Anakin, so the idea from the start wasn't "he'll do for now", for all Palpatine knew Maul would be the only person he'd get a chance to train. And its not like he'd have to get rid of Maul right after TPM beause he wanted Anakin, if it was the case he wouldn't have taken on Dooku either. Maul should have survived TPM, and been the one Anakin killed at the start of RotS.


    I don't remember saying they were never in conflict, but they were doing their jobs perfectly well for thousands of years until Anakin showed up. There was nothing broken about the order. Dooku wasn't happy about the Republcis Corruption and Qui-Gon's death pushed him over the edge and out of the Jedi.
  6. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    Dooku's reveal. They talk about him throughout the movie without knowing who/what he is. Then it's finally revealed it's Christopher Lee; you first hear the voice, then you see him. I like the way that's done.
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  7. Chewbacca89 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2012
    star 5
    Ah ok. That makes sense lol. I thought there was some huge plot twist I forgot about...
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  8. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 21, 2012
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    No, Sidious couldn't always keep contact with CIS to control the war, he would need someone on that side, and Dooku could sway more people to their side.

    Because Vader was the Chosen One, Palpatine still believed he had the potential to be the most powerful Sith Lord, Maul was quite different, he never, ever showed any sign to surpass his master, always far behind Sidious. Dooku had a different purpose like I stated.
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  9. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

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    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    Any army is going to have generals that can do that. He didn't need Dooku.

    Again, all EU Fluff. There is ZERO evidence that Palpatine thought Maul was some kind of "lesser" Sith. If anything, since he knew about Anakin when he got his hooks into Dooku, Dooku was hte more expendable of the two.
  10. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    There's also TCW- Palpatine's reaction when he discovers Maul is alive and has taken over Mandalore is apparently to decide that he is a rival and try and kill him.
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  11. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    I believe he was, had he not died. Why would Sidious waste so much time to train him? In my opinion, Sidious didn't pick Maul or Tyranus as mere stand-in until Anakin was "ready". They could very well defeat Anakin or each other. It was the survival of the fittest.

    So? Just because you never heard, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

    No, you can't switch the burden of proof. You are the one who claimed to know the opinion of the majority, not me.

    What? Making up strawmen to try to justify something you can't prove is silly. You are the one who is "pretending that the majority opinion out there is that the PT is the weaker of the two". You don't even know how many people have seen Star Wars, therefore you can't claim to know the opinion of the majority.
    Last edited by Alexrd, Nov 18, 2013
  12. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    Maul did set himself up as a rival and was trying to deceive Palpatine. Palpatine is not incorrect in that observation, since Maul took an apprentice of his own and declared he and Savage to be the "true Lords of the Sith."

    But when Maul is first informed of the Clone Wars by Savage, he seemed to know what Savage was talking about and said something to the effect of "so, it has begun without me" (may not be exact). So I figure that's proof that he knew what Palpatine's plan was and that had he not been defeated by Obi-Wan, he would have been involved in the Clone Wars.
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  13. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    He might know some of the details but not all of them. Dooku in the ROTS novel had his own idea of what the post war war galaxy might be like but Palpatine ordering his death ended that charade.
  14. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    He might not have known everything though- since some of The Plan came about after his fall down that pit on Naboo- the commissioning of the Clone Army, the hiring of Jango by "Tyranus" AKA Dooku, and so forth.

    Though I could see him knowing that Sidious planned on setting the Trade Federation (and others) up as the Republic's enemy - a Confederacy in the making.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Nov 18, 2013
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  15. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    The Jedi's downfall had already been set in motion before Anakin's actions in ROTS.


    I don't agree. I just don't see Maul as the type to serve as de facto leader of the Separatists.
    Last edited by DRush76, Nov 18, 2013
  16. Chewbacca89 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2012
    star 5
    Yea I honestly don't know who could possible think that the Jedi were perfect until Anakin came along...
  17. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4
    I'm not switching, it exists on both sides. You can't say its impossible to know the overall opinion, and then make statements about it. If thats your position you don't know anymore then anyone else does if the general opinion of hte PT is that its inferior, and by claiming my take is wrong you saying you know the opinion of the majority.

    I do know what the overriding of opinion of people I know, people I've heard and seen on media outlets is, what I've seen online etc... is.


    Someone who watched the movies. Remove Anakin, They don't train him or he dies at the end of TPM......how do the Jedi fall? Even if Palpatine is able to kill them all with Order 66, thats nothing that happened from within the Order itself that caused it to fall.

    Not it wasn't, at least not from within, and the planning of the Sith is hardly a sign of a weak or broken Jedi Order.

    First, with a little more character development, why couldn't Maul be the leader of the separtists? With a little more foresight into the PT, Lucas could have created a Darth Maul that could have easily done that. Second, who says he would have to be the Leader of Separatists?
    Last edited by sluggo1313., Nov 18, 2013
  18. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4

    Not as the public face, GG and Dooku had different uses, yes, Dooku was expendable but not until the time was right.
  19. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    Which statement have I made where I have the burden of proof?

    I'm not saying your take is wrong. I'm saying that taking your assumption (because that's all it is) as a fact is wrong. You don't know the majority therefore you can't claim to know their opinion.

    The people you know is not the majority. It's a very small percentage of those who have seen the movies.
  20. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3

    ? I'm not sure, but I think you've helped point out another reason why I am put off by the a great deal of the PT, and how much the emphasis has been changed between the two 'trilogies'.

    You say what you say here as if...it was a given that there were/must be flaws in the Jedi Order. Why? In what way is that a 'must have' aspect of the story. There is NOTHING in the OT to suggest that Vader became evil (even after father and Vader were welded together to become one) because of flaws in the Jedi order. Only in the PT is the idea that they are precriptive, set in their ways etc. even touched upon. Vader became evil because he was seduced by the darkside of the force; at least that was my understanding. Luke's actions at the end of ROTJ are all about his choices. It strikes me that in order to complement that the PT ought to have shown Anakin make his choices.

    Instead what we get is a situation where...he's not really responsible for the Jedi's downfall and the rise of the Emperor. No...Anakin was a victim of the Jedi Order and their flaws. It wasn't really his choice - and in fact his 'choice', at the end comes in the form of a last minute deal where he was under pressure, hadn't slept much etc. etc.

    I mean, look at Luke. he had it much easier. It was much easier for him to make the choices he made.

    The OT was, ultimately, about personal responsibility, about doing the right thing even when that isn't the easiest path path. Add in the PT (and we mustn't forget the whole 'prophecy' gobbledy gook in this) and it becomes, instead a story of individuals being simply subject to the fates, drawn to their decisions by events and not really having any responsibility for their actions.

    As for Dooku. I don't think his character was required. Having another former Jedi fall to the darkside takes something away from Vader's betrayal of the Order, imo. Dooku having been Yoda's former pupil also throws some confusion onto Obi-Wan's line that he believed he could teach Luke's father as well as Yoda could.....yeah, nice job with Dooku. Did old Ben become senile, forget about the whole Yoda's former padawan becoming a Sith Lord business?

    I like the characterisation of Dooku, but I think that has far more to do with the gravitas that Christopher Lee brings to the part than the part itself. Pretty much the same as Liam Neeson adding a huge helping of humanity to Qui-Gon which...the written character does not match.
  21. Samnz Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 2
    I see your point and I absolutely love Dooku and Christopher Lee. He is my favourite side villain in the PT. However, Lucas stood firm on the idea to have a minor villain for each film and I think he was right in that regard. I don't think he should have gone for a villan that rivaled Vader over three films. I also like that the character was suddenly there. There is some criticsm that everyone was related with each other in Star Wars, so I liked that Dooku (and Grievous) just appeared suddenly out of nowhere.
    I still think they should have kept the moments when Obi-Wan and Jocasta Nu spoke about Dooku, though. That basically did all it needed to flesh him out and give him the background that was only hinted in the final movie, sadly.
    Absolutely. It's also nice that they left him ambiguous for a long time.
  22. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Yes. He was told to stand in the shadows and keep silent at the beginning of the Sith-Trade Federation-partnership, so he knew plenty about that phase of the Grand Plan, just not the finer details. When Maul arrived on Naboo, he immediately assumed control of the Droid-army and he told the TF-Leaders to wait in the thrown room. If he survived TPM and Theed didn't fall, he would still be in charge of the Droid Army and his role would have remained the same... Maul was never going to be the face of the CIS, but that doesn't mean he was incapable of pulling-puppet-strings for his Master, from the shadows.

    TCW went to great lengths to show just how politically-shrewd Maul really was... he knew how Satine's Government was run and how to assume control of Death Watch. The Zabrak brought both Mandalorian houses to heel.
  23. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    Thats a good point, I hadn't thought of that, but those Clone Wars episodes do a lot to show Maul as someone who could have lead the Seperatists forces, maybe even been the face and a Leader, just a different kind of leader - probably more of a lead from the front type then Dooku.
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  24. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    One, I don't see how showing more Dooku can be more relevant. Earlier, someone had dismissed the idea that exploring the backgrounds of leading characters like Leia and Han were unnecessary, due to the "simple" nature of the OT plot. Yet, this same person continued to insist that more exploration of Dooku's character was necessary. I really don't see the point. I simply find it difficult to accept this kind of reasoning.

    And for those who demand that Maul "should have lived" . . . I still suspect this sentiment comes from this viewpoint of Maul as an overt "badass" and "cool character". If he had lived, I wonder how Obi-Wan would have acquired his knighthood and be eligible to train Anakin.
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  25. Firmus Jagdon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2013
    star 1
    It think it's great the Peter Cushing (Gov Tarkin) and Chris Lee began their careers in Hammer together and they both end their careers in essence with Star Wars. Dooku served his purpose, he was the workman for Sidious, the eventual fall guy for the Seperatists and the creation of the Empire...
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