ST Would Luke even want to train others to be Jedi?

PT Jedi (including Council members) get taken out by a few clones. Luke takes on a Death Star full of stormtroopers when he's been trained for like 2 days.

 

I was ordered to restart at white belt Jhoon Re taekwondo even though I was already a purple belt at that group just because I moved state and was at a new location, but it was the same lessons and same company and I was told I wouldn't hit purple belt for 3 years again. I was flat out told it was because of money even though in a test match I beat every other purple belt their and my dad who was a brown belt was in the very same boat as me, their rules back then said only black belts get to stay after moving... not sure if that rule is still their or not its been a decade since I was there. However when I went from taekwondo to karate I was flat out informed my foot work was amazing but my upper body kept resorting to taekwondo so Id start out at white belt until I broke those old habbits, as soon as I did and showed understanding of why it was different they advanced me. I have a ton more examples but those are just two that stood out as useful in the context of this. Again good masters care more about a students abilities not a checklist and it must conform to an exact amount of time. They care about progressing you so your always challenged.

 

I always figured that a padawan/apprentice became a full fledged Jedi once they faced the dark side, and still remained pure. Obi-wan became a Jedi Knight once he successfully faced Maul without falling to the Darkside, in order to win that battle.

Yoda and Obi-wan mention to Luke that 'this is a dangerous time for you, when you'll be tempted by the dark side" I think that's the real final Jedi test. Luke faced Vader and remained pure.

It's not about the flashy, wiz-bang stuff. It's about conquering the dark side that resides inside of you.

Now that doesn't mean Luke still doesn't need to learn more. I would think that after ROTJ the spend a significant amount of time studying and seeking out old Jedi wisdom. Learning as much about the true nature of the Force as can be, things that might have been lost in recent times.

 

It's not like he cannot do that and have started training his sister and others.

 

You're right, good teachers also know you have to put time in to understand what you're doing - granted those requriements really start to kick in and become more noticable once you get Nidan and higher, though not always. I know some schools require 2-3 years at brown belt because 1) You need to higher understanding of allt he past things you learned that simply takes time and 2) You need teaching experience before you can move onto a level were you are going to be required to teach. I can teach anyone in a couple hours what they need to know to go from white to yellow belt. Doesn't mean they have the experience and understanding to test that quickly.

I'm sure you've heard of the Outliers method of success - you have to put in 10,000 hours to master something. There is no way around it. No matter who good you are, how quickly you pick up, what natural ability you have. You HAVE to put in the time. Thats why Gretzky denies he was "born" with his talent, because he worked his ass off to develop it. Its why Tiger Woods did, and still does, practice for HOURS & HOURS a day. And its part of the reason why most good martial art schools and teachers (and many still have close roots to Japan) have time requirements as well. Hell, some basically force you to fail tests once or twice before you can even be considered for passing them (again, we are talking higher levels) because you need that experience.

 

It doesn't, but I also think he would want to get more experience and wisdom under his belt first. He was told/asked to pass onw hat he had learned, doesn't mean he had to start the next day.

 

No, but it doesn't' mean you wait 35 years either! This is especially true since Luke is the last Jedi, living in a dangerous galaxy. He has no idea how long he will live, and if he dies before training others, the New Jedi order dies with him.

 

Sure, but that doesn't mean you rush into it either, and I dont think he'd wait 35 years to teach someone, but I also don't think we'll see more then a handful of Jedi in the ST, if that many.

 

Exactly. Just because the PT Jedi might have had some sort of time requirement doesn't mean that they NEEDED it. The OT showed that it wasn't needed. The Jedi have only been kidnapping babies for 1,000 years of their 25,000 year history.

 

A math savant doesn't need to practice 10000 hours to master his calculus skills.

I think the number of 10000 hours is completely random and meaningless. It's basically just a "you get better with training". Well no kidding, Einstein.

 

What I said was "A lot of martial arts have....." and Ryus called that BS. If anything, he is the one saying his experience is how it is/should be for everyone, everywhere. He went further saying "good masters don't have those", implying those I train with and school that don't do what his experience is aren't good schools/masters.

And when you apply this to Jedi, from what we've seen, they SEEM to have similar time requirments to their training. Have we ever seen a 15 or 16 year old Jedi? Every character (main or background) that is that age was clearly a Padawan. We have seen nothing at all to indicate that the Jedi would promote someone to Jedi Knight after 4 or 5 years of being a Padawan no matter how advanced or "good" they are. Even Anakin, who by all accounts was a very talented, naturally gifted, advanced student/Padawan had to train for 10 years as a Padawan.

 

yeah, it's not like you're a master at 10,000 hours but not at 9,999.

Some people can have a million hours and never be a master.

 

Wouldn't be surprised if we see five at the most .
edit: I mean Jedi

 

I think the 10000 hours thing has been said because of muscle memory. If you do sports, it is true that you have to train an inordinate amount of time because otherwise your muscle memory would get worse.

This is also true for, say, piano players.

But it definitely doesn't make sense for all the crafts there are. I already mentioned math savants. If those exist in real life, a force savant is surely not hard to believe.

 

With all due respect, you did say "And its part of the reason why most good martial art schools and teachers....... have time requirements as well." Seems you're saying if they don't have a time requirement they aren't good.

Thanks for proving the point that time requirements for Jedi are meaningless by using Anakin as an example. He trained for 10 years and became a knight at 19. Kenobi trained from birth (~25 years) and became a knight at 25. Anakin had ~15 years less of training and became a knight at an earlier age than Kenobi did. If training time mattered, Anakin wouldn't have become a knight until he was over 30.

 

But it did show they needed it, because Luke didn't put in the time and didn't show all the powers of the PT Jedi - no speed, no blocking or absorbing Force Lightning, not as confidence or profiecent (like the difference between the Rancor/Arena fights, never showing the kind of ability Anakin did by jumping out of the speeder etc...) and his lightsaber skills were nowhere near what even Padawan Obi-wan showed.

When in the movies did the entire Jedi history and their training get explained?

Except it isn't. And a math savant's brain simply works differently, basically at a level you can't train yourself to get you if you dont have what they do. If you want to master a skill or ability, something you have to learn, you HAVE to put in the time. The Tiger Woods example was brought up early.M aybe he does have some inatte ability that allows him to be better then 98% of the population at golf. But you also can't deny the amount of time and pratice and study that he HAD to put in as a child to develop that raw talent/ability, and that he still has to put in to maintain that ability. This idea that "Luke is just a natural"........doesn't make logical sense, isn't supporting by what we see int he movie, and the guy who wrote all 6 movies has said he only half trained.

 

I think it's best not to read too much into differences between the prequel trilogy and the original trilogy because I think they're more the result of Lucas's inconsistent writing than anything else.

I will though think that the long extensive training Jedi go through that starts very young has more to do with their ideological training than the time it has takes to progress in ability. They could train Luke quickly but he'd be at risk to misuse the force. The dark side is quick & easy because there's no ideological training necessary. Get angry, mess stuff up. The force is powerful and you can feel it flowing through you when you are full of aggression.

 

That doesn't prove they meaningless - as I said, are there any 15 or 16 year old Jedi?

Who says all Padawans become Jedi at the earlist possible moment?

And you do remember TPM right, the council had BIG reservations about training Anakin in the first place because he was too old and missed those first 8 years of training. Anakin seemed to be the one exception to that rule. And even the choosen on, with more force power, connection then even Yoda, required 10 years of training and MUCH more hands on experience then Luke ever had to become a Knight.

 

Also I'd like to point out Yoda's teachings "wars not make one great." Being a great Jedi isn't about being proficient with a lightsaber. None of that will help you against the dark side. Obi-Wan attacks Vader & wounds him & Vader simply becomes more powerful in the Dark Side & a terrifying leader of the Empire. Obi-Wan rejects trying to defeat Vader in combat & allows Vader to strike him down & becomes more powerful than Vader can ever imagine, I'd argue that is the point where Obi-Wan truly became a great Jedi & no sooner. Luke's ultimate trial is similar, throwing his lightsaber to the ground after witnessing the terrifying power of his anger. Maybe trust in the lightsaber and the martial training was the failing of the Jedi & Yoda recognized that and looked to alleviate it in his training of Luke as a warrior of peace.

I think it'd be really cool for that to be a continued theme in the sequel trilogy because the prequel trilogy didn't really touch on it- that of the great Jedi being one that throws down their lightsaber.

 

Cite me the example of a PT era Jedi being trained, fully, in 6 weeks.

If Anakin is example of bare min. Padawan training (10 years), and the exception who skipped the 8 years training in the temple (which almost kept him being a Jedi at all), that means Luke is missing 9 years, 10 months and 2 weeks of training just to get to the bare min of what the PT Jedi got. If those 9 years, 10 months and 2 weeks aren't needed, even by the chosen one, what were Qui-Gon and Obi-wan doing waisting their students time for that long?

 

When GL made the OT, speed and blocking/absorbing force lightning DIDN'T exist! How could Luke have exhibited powers Lucas didn't create for another 16 years? Be logical here. Not to mention, speed was shown exactly 1 time in the entire PT.

Luke showed more confidence in RotJ than anybody in any SW movie. You might want to get off the "lack of confidence" train.

What power did Anakin use when he jumped out of the speeder? The ability to free fall?

Once again, Lucas changing choreography and style does not mean Luke didn't show the lightsaber skills of TPM Kenobi. Luke took on multiple enemies, deflected blasters, and beat a Sith Lord. Seems exactly like what Kenobi did in TPM.

Manipulating the Force seems like it is more mental (it is called knowledge by Dooku) and more akin to being a math savant than it is to muscle memory of golfers.

And you don't think that Luke is shown as a natural in the movies? Deflects a remote 30 seconds after 1st try. Uses the Force to destroy the death star. Uses telekinesis - UNTRAINED - to retrieve his lightsaber. Starts doing flips with minimal training. Is called "a great disturbance in the Force" as soon as he starts training. Builds a lightsaber. Uses Force Choke - UNTRAINED. Uses Mind Tricks. Is able to beat Vader a year after being defeated by him on Cloud City.

Luke is definitely shown as being a natural.

 

People usually have to learn calculus. It is a learned skill.

I don't know why you bring up Tiger Woods so much. He is only one guy. I already brought up that people exist who barely have to learn a skill (calculus) to master it. There are also natural photo realistic drawers or people who can memorize an extreme amount of different numbers. These are usually learned skills as well.

As fas as I know, Luke is presented as "the last hope" of all force sensitives in the galaxy. Palpatine and Vader are powerful, but they certainly couldn't have killed each and every force sensitives. Thus it follows that Ben and Yoda saw something very special in Luke (and Leia). Who says that Luke's brain "didn't work differently"? Maybe it did. The entire OT supports the thought that Luke is a prodigy of the force. His masters treat him like one and Vader does to. Do you think Vader would call someone "most impressive" if it was just some run of the mill Jedi? And Yoda clearly thinks that Luke is capable of lifting that X-Wing.

And I don't care what Lucas said. I try to forget all the revisionist crap he says.

 

I really feel that the reason Yoda wants them young isn't because the training is particularly martially intensive, but it's rather ideologically intensive, & that to create a good Jedi you need to create a good person who operates on a high plain of moral development. It takes little time for someone strong in the force to become adept with a lightsaber, but a lifetime to become someone who can be trusted to defend the galaxy against evil with one.

I think Luke growing up on Tatooine was a huge part of his training & shouldn't be underestimated. He was becoming adept in the force bulls-eyeing wamprats in his t-16, and although Obi-Wan speaks negatively of Owen's preferences to have Luke stay out of the Rebellion, I think growing up with kind of a gruff manly dude on a desert planning in a lot of ways resembles spiritual training.

Being a fully formed adult myself, I feel that things that I scorned and thought were pointless growing up were actually forming me and making me into the person I am today. It's like Mr. Miyagi & Daniel. Daniel doesn't think he's training at all by painting Mr. Miyagi's house and buffing his car, but he realized that he learned to effectively block attacks. I feel the same way about non-martial things in my life & I feel like Luke got that. Plus Obi-Wan was there watching over him.

Also, none of the PT Jedi were trained by force ghosts. I bet it makes it a lot easier to use and trust in the force when a ghost is whispering it in your ear.

 

truth