PT Would Star Wars be a "Dead Franchise" Had Lucas not made the PT?

If anything Wicked shows the value of revamping a property for a new audience. Much like TPM did.

 

mikeximus Thanks for clarifying the 2013 release and the over BO; I quickly looked at BO mojo and didn't delve deeply enough.

It would be helpful to your cause to dial back on the arrogance and general dickishness dude, not sure why you feel to he need to cop this tone.

Let's clarify my Oz point, which seems to be lost.

Nobody said that the Wizard of Oz remains as popular as it was 50 years ago. However we're talking about a film that's approaching 80 years old and is still known, still beloved, and still has a decent financial base (people are still capitalizing off the back of old Oz, with films, TV shows, plays, toys, books, etc having recently been released, or are currently in production). That's extraordinarily rare for a film that damn old; it's a wonder we're even having a debate about something that dropped when WWII was ramping. What other extremely old film can compare? That we're now trying to down play the obvious popularity of Oz, in an effort to down play the obvious popularity of the OT, is amazing...

The comparison was to the OT, released about 40 years later. We're talking three films now, that are arguably even more popular than Oz. They would have gone down the same route, continuing to be beloved, continuing to maintain some financial might, especially if Lucas had continued his quest to clean up and modernize the films, selling them as "new" to later generations, and re-merchandizing them. And there still would've been great interest in future sequels even without the PT ever being released.

The PT absolutely did bring SW raring back into the public eye in a major way, for better and worse, but the franchise wasn't "dead", it was dormant. There is an enormous difference.

Exactly my experience, and I'm several years younger than you. I was still in high school when the SE dropped. A hook for those films for the kids and teens who never got to experience SW on the big screen was just that, a call to experience THE Star Wars on the big screen, for the very first time. There was a lot of buzz about that angle. My experience was kids from my high school heading out to see the OT: SE. The theater for ROTJ in particular was picked with high school and middle schoolers, even more so than adults. We were excited to see some SW in theaters for the first time.

 

I never said that the fandom was "just those that saw the original theatrical releases", never said that at all. I have stated many times now across many posts that I believe there were new fans created from the VHS years or other ways after those Golden Years. However, I have also stated many times that the fandom was still, by a vast majority, made up of those that did grow up during the days of the OT. VHS copies of a movie just don't even come close to generating enough new fans to touch what an actual new movie does.

Once again, IMO, if the PT never existed, than VHS, Laser Discs, DVD's, Blu Ray's were not going to generate enough new blood into the franchise to keep it going on any meaningful level, until this point, 40 years later.

I was born in 1975, just one year ahead of you, and I saw ESB in the Drive-In and theaters many times at 5 Years Old, and ROTJ many times at the theaters when i was 8. My parents told me that they took me in 1978 or 1979 to a re-release of ANH, but, I don't remember that. My first actual memory of watching ANH was watching it on TV, and I can't remember if it was before I saw ESB or after. You and I are pretty much the same age, so I would say that your situation was probaly a matter of circunsatnaces as to why you didn't see the movies in the theaters, but, you were definitely old enough to be a product of the theatrical years, it's just for whatever reason, you never went.

I am going to state one more time, because it seems that it has been missed a bunch of times. I am sure that there were new Star Wars fans made over the years after 1985, but, no where near enough to make it worth merchandisers time to continue to make Star Wars products. That is a clear indication of when a brand has hit it's limit, when people who are in the business of making money, feel they can't make money anymore. I have no reason to not believe you or theMaestro over your personal experiences, however, there are actual facts here that show that while you may have been still immersed in Star Wars, the facts are the rest of the world as a whole was not.

I never said it was "just those in their 30s and 40s that went to see the SE"... I said that it was clear that LFL was aiming their merchandising at already established Star Wars fans, the vast majority of which came from the Golden Age of Star Wars. The new merchandising that was unleashed in the early 90's was not going to generate anywhere near enough new fans to keep a franchise going for decades! I am a product of the theatrical years of Star Wars, I was 15 in 1990, and 20 years old in 1995. I was, more than likely, the major demographic that LFL was aiming at in the early 90's, already established fans, that had already been fans because of their experiences as kids with Star Wars. Video Games, especially the PC games which were the majority of the titles released in those early 90's were more flight simulations and strategy games, not something a 10 year old would pick up to play. Not something that was going to generate tons of new fans. Kids weren't going to pick up the Novels, and the popularity of Comics had dropped, and just didn't have the impact it once did.

OK, so we can finally end this false narrative that you continue want to pin on me, let me again say that I never said it was just, or only the older fans. I have gone out of my way many times to say that surely new fans were created, however, VHS tapes and word of mouth were never ever going to generate enough new fans and new blood to keep the Star Wars brand going on any meaningful level. I may not have said it in every single sentence, but, I have said it many times to convey my feelings. So let me post what I have said many times now so we can put this false narrative to rest:

On the SE's creating new Fans:

So once again.. To make this clear, I never said that it was just, or only older people that were fans. I have stated many times that I recognize that new fans were created by the VHS years, but, to me, it was not, and would not be enough to keep the franchise relevant 40 years later!

The question of the thread was would Star Wars be a dead franchise had it not been for the Prequels. There is no way that releasing the OT on VHS/DVD/Blu Ray every year for the last 40 years was going to generate enough new fans to keep the franchise relevant and in the eye of the mainstream.

Novels, Video Games, Comics, and toys that are of 30 to 40 year old characters were not going to generate enough revenue to keep merchandisers happy over 40 years. If merchandisers aren't happy, than there is no new merchandise to expose the youth to the OT. Simply releasing the movies every few years wouldn't mean anything. Again, that's not to say that new fans wouldn't be created as they were introduced through different ways, but, it would not be enough to garner enough interest to keep making merchandising. That is exactly what we saw in 1985 to 1988. Without the Prequels, it would have happened again.

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It's not my fault you didn't do your homework, and you were wrong...

However, let me point something out to you about "arrogance and general disckishness":

That's pretty arrogant of yourself to think that PT fans aren't capable of being un-biased not biased, that we are re-writing history. I would say it's even dickish.... That instead of just giving your opinion on the matter, you want to take a shot at PT fans in general...

Could it possibly be that when I made my post about your mistake with the Wizard Of Oz stuff, and used the following sentence:

That it was meant to convey a message about something you said earlier...

So yeah... self awareness goes a long ways! Insulting PT fans will never go well with me!

And for the record, I am, at heart, as a child of the eighties, that grew up with the OT, more of a fan of the OT than the PT! It will always hold a special place in my heart that the PT can't touch because of the childhood memories and those warm and fuzzy feelings of nostalgia for my childhood. However I love the PT almost nearly as much as I love the OT.

I can't be put into one category or the other. The OT was great, it was a cultural phenomenon that we will probably never see again, simply pointing at box office is not the only measure of what makes a cultural phenomenon (not saying that's what you are doing, just making a general statement). However, even Star Wars, the OT, had it's limits. There is no way that releasing the OT on VHS/DVD/Blu Ray every year for the last 40 years was going to generate enough new fans to keep the franchise relevant and in the eye of the mainstream. With no PT, the OT fades away, with each passing generation... Sure new fans are created, just like surely there are new fans created for the Wizard of Oz, but, Oz is not culturally relevant anymore, it is not relevant in the mainstream anymore! It is not relevant to the legions of our youth. It exists on a channel for old movies, movies that were someone else's movies.

Disney tried to bring some relevance back to the name Oz, but, in the end, it didn't do as expected.

Edit: Can't stand when these posts edit themselves with different fonts and font sizes... I apologize for the inconsistencies. Not my doing..

 

You know, a mod just today informed me that some PT fans are extremely sensitive still, and suggested I tread lightly. I finally see their point. There is some kind of strange emotional undercurrent to this discussion that I'm not interested in engaging.

For the record I was a PT apologist for years. I never hated them, even if I don't love them as much as the OT, and I'm a legit fan of ROTS. They don't need defending against me, nor do I ever fault PT fans for their love of the trilogy. I actually find it refreshing that the PT has so many fans, as I never bought the narrative of their universal hate. It wasn't the OT that I got the chance to watch in first run, it was the PT, and by and large I enjoyed the experience.

This was an interesting topic, so thanks all for the discussion. But what's been happening here for the last few pages? It's not that deep for me, and it's sapped this discussion of any kind of enjoyment.

Later.

 

Thanks for your explanation, and for sharing some of your personal experience, Mike. I agree with most of what you're saying. If there were no PT, and now no ST, Star Wars would eventually become a piece of history, loved by some, known by many, but no longer a cultural phenomenon. The fire needs fresh wood to keep burning brightly.

 

Ummm...



lol, just having some fun

 

RE: that fanbases or properties only grow significantly by big cinema releases.

While it is certainly true that a massive showing in cinemas, big BO etc, that this will add more people to the fanbase.

But other ways are also possible.

Ex 1.
Terminator 1 and 2.
The first film came out in 1984, did about 38 M. Decent hit but not huge.
The sequel came out in 1991 and the opening weekend was almost as big as the first films whole run.
And it made over 200 M in total and was no 1 for that year.
Sure some of that came of the strength of the film itself, the effects, the action etc.
But the fanbase had grown beyond those that saw the first film in cinema.
It did ok in cinema but did very well on VHS and was quite big there.

Ex 2.
Austin Powers.
The first film came out in 1997 and did a little over 50 M in the US.
Again decent hit but not huge.
The sequel came out two years later and there the opening weekend was bigger than the first film's whole run.
The sequel did over 200 M at the US BO.

Again, like with Terminator, the film grew big on VHS.
I was one them. I never saw the first film in cinemas but caught it on VHS, liked it and saw the sequel in theaters.

RE: BO and longevity.
Films that make it huge at the BO, that doesn't mean they are the ones who will live on.
Take 1982, second biggest film of that year, Tootsie, made almost 180 M.
Also that year, Blade Runner, Road Warrior and The Thing.
Combined they made less than half of Tootsie.
But I would say those films are more talked about and remembered than Tootsie.

Take 1987 and Three Men and a Baby and The Princess Bride.
The former made more than five times the latter and I would again think that the latter is better remembered.

About BO and the Wizard of Oz.
In it's first theatrical run, that film was pretty much a flop.
It didn't make it's budget back.
The film got really big when it was shown on TV almost 20 years later.
That made it very well known.

Again Blade Runner, that didn't do well at the BO and yet we have a sequel coming out this year and it is quite anticipated. I doubt it will make anywhere near as much as any SW film but people are interested in it.
And not just those that saw it in cinemas in 1982.

And speaking about SW. In 1982, there was a re-release of ANH, it made about 15 M and was no 50 that year.
The 1997 SE made almost ten times as much and was no 8 that year.
Yes it had more screens and a big ad campaign.
But I would have to think that this difference is not just due to that.
I would think that the fanbase had grown a bit over the years and a fair number of those that saw that version, had not seen SW on the big screen before.

In closing, with no SE and no PT, there would be less interest in SW sure.
NO interest? No.
If the property came up for sale, there would be people interested in it.
And if it was sold then I would bet that a film would be made.
Would it do well?
Most likely not nearly as much as TFA but well enough to warrant more films I would think.
I've mentioned it before, Mad Max Fury Road. No film made for something like 30 years and it came out and was very well liked. It didn't do anywhere near TFA but it did well all things considered.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Yeah, but only for a small, hardcore fanbase. General audience doesn't care about books and comics.

 

If we're talking about the 90's expanded universe, I don't think books and comic were keeping the franchise alive as much as it proved the franchise still had a pulse and people were willing to pay money to revisit that galaxy far far away. It was a long march to a new chapter of the Star Wars saga in 1999. My one reaction to any Star Wars book or comic I read in the 90s, good or bad, was - this would be better if it was a new movie.

 

I do not think Star Wars would have been a dead franchise, but the Prequels, I think (and can be checked) brought at least some more interest on the Original Trilogy.
If you like numbers and you have the data, you can make a statistics to see how things related to Star Wars were selling till Prequels.
And how much more audience Prequels brought.

Who knows, if Prequels would not have been released, maybe Disney would not have decided to buy Lucasfilm and we would be today just at 3 episodes.
Since is clear, cartoons were started by Prequels.

 

It’s hard to say. I certainly do think the original STAR WARS films have a certain staying power and appeal. Keep in mind that most people are still pretty familiar with BACK TO THE FUTURE, ROCKY, THE TERMINATOR, THE WIZARD OF OZ, THE GODFATHER, A CLOCKWORK ORANGE, SCARFACE, etc. Two recent films that I think can be added to such a list in about 10 years will be PULP FICTION and FIGHT CLUB.

STAR WARS combines the feel-good nature of something like ROCKY, the depth of emotion in something like THE GODFATHER, and the distinctive iconic imagery of something like A CLOCKWORK ORANGE. It would’ve stuck around.

 

I think that GL keeping it "dead" was part of what has fueled its unrivalled success.

The trilogy is a self contained arc within a huge universe with a huge back story and an important future, that we never see. It was the first of its kind to be such an epic sci fi franchise AND be such a great trilogy of movies, and it had SO MUCH POTENTIAL that it was OBVIOUS that GL needed to do a back story and continue the story on... Except that he didn't.

So people started publishing books, and games, and comics, giving us the back story of how Vader was born from Anakin, about Luke's future children, about other jedi... Kids would talk about it in the playground in the early and mid nineties, the one kid who had read a lot of the books or who had dial-up would tell the other kids about how Obiwan threw Anakin into lava, how the emperor cloned himself, how the lightsabers were made etc, while kids would discuss the games like Rogue Squadron for hours and hours, desperately thirsting for more movies, for a cartoon series, for SOMETHING.

Then, out of nowhere came the huge Tazo phenomenon which brought Star Wars to the fore for kids who loved pogs, along with the remastered movies, which kids HAD to see, and parents full of nostalgia would love to bring their kids to see...

It's not hard to see how this accidental formula, which probably will never work for another franchise again, worked perfectly to percolate the insane amount of success that surrounds SW today.

By the time TPM was announced, at least two new trilogies were way overdue and I remember being more excited than I'd ever been, and I'd only discovered Star Wars a couple of years before, through the SNES game, then watching ANH and then collecting Tazos before eventually getting figures of the characters and the VHS box set of the remastered saga.

I think, had there been no new SW, someone would have crowdfunded a new unofficial one based on the EU and it would have been stupid popular. People have been SW mad for as long as I remember, even if it was just based on the movies (casual fans aren't THAT casual about SW IME).

 

Also, I’d like to add that I really don’t think it’s fair to compare STAR WARS to any other film. STAR WARS was kind of a unique phenomenon. The only other cultural phenomenon I can think of that it could be compared to is the Beatles…and the Beatles are still pretty damn well remembered. To this day, pretty much everyone recognizes “Yesterday”, “Hey Jude”, “Yellow Submarine”, “While My Guitar Gently Weeps”, “Eleanor Rigby”, “All You Need Is Love”, etc.

I mean, the fact is that STAR WARS really was the biggest thing since the Beatles. So the chances of it being forgotten are next-to-zero.

 

I remember seeing the cover of a fan magazine in the inter-trilogy period asking, in big letters, "Is STAR WARS Fandom Dead?" I didn't read the article, and I don't remember the magazine, but I disagreed. With the Marvel comic out of production and no new movies or TV on the horizon, we were just in a bit of a downturn, much like "Star Trek" was between TAS and TMP. Of course, shortly thereafter, "Heir to the Empire" came along, with TPM soon after.

 

Reading this thread today is a hoot

 

This is an interesting discussion for sure. I remember my parents showing me the Original trilogy when I was a kid, but I'm sure the reason they did it was because "Oh look there's a new star wars coming out, probably time to show the kids Star Wars." Still though, I didn't see any of the prequels until years after I had been thoroughly indoctrinated into the OT, and given the fact that there was a VHS and DVD boxset of star wars films at my house when I was a kid and to this day my parents knowledge of the prequels is rudimentary at best, I think Star Wars would've lived on perfectly fine without the PT.

Back to the Future is a fine analogy but on a larger scale. Tons of people love Back to the Future who were shown it by their parents. Star Wars is a much bigger deal and I think if Return fo the Jedi was the last film made there would still be a pretty damn large fanbase of Star Wars fans now.

 

I have to agree a lot with this comment. There is just so much Star Wars content. And I personally dont want to consume all of it, only segments of it. The more content created the better, but it depends on what is created. Im very interested in this Obi Wan film that is coming. I hope it is closer to 19BBY then it is 0BBY. It could probably be the first Disney Star Wars film I see after seeing ROTS. I never read a Stor Wars comic or owned a toy. I did enjoy playing Battlefront II though. So its levels to it. Some fans consume everything and other consume only segments. For me it Episodes 1-6 and Filoniverse Star Wars so far that I have seen. Looking forward to more news on Obi Wan to see what side of the PT-OT they go in.