Would the PT have been too violent if battle droids weren't used?

War is violence. That's one of the things I came away with from the original Star Wars back in 77. sure, there were futuristic weapons, space craft and creatures but these weapons had bite to them. They did not just zap you and you fell down or disappeared. In my eyes GL has corrupted his own work by trying to be PC much like Spielberg did with the special edition of ET by removing the weapons from the Feds hands. God forbid we have federal agents chasing kids around with loaded weapons even though for all they knew they could have been dealing with a hostile or contagious alien.

My final word on the battle droids is this. If the infantry droids had been more intimidating looking I might not have had such a problem with it. Those tan BD were just plain silly looking and their "roger, roger" dialogue got on my nerves. The destroyer droids and super battle droids were okay until ROTS then their dialogue became stupid.

As for the battle droids feeling fear, it was stupid. Only expensive droids would be programmed to feel pain and fear as a form of self preservation. Expendable battle droids would not be so equiped because it would hinder their ability to do their job.

 

I agree. I never liked the "normal" droid soldiers. I would have preferred the super battle droids be the regular ones...
I can only imagine what the designer of the normal ones was thinking... hmmmm... let's see, let's make spindly, weak, tinker-toy type soldiers that are easily broken apart....
The robots should have been more fierce and threatening, and armed better.... I would have pushed the "robot" angle more, making them like the robot versions of the Uruk-Hai. The SBDs could have been just like that, that is, until Lucas made them TALK..... sigh.
Now, as for the final battle scene having humans vs. the Gungans? I still would rather have the foes be robots, but just more fearsome, dangerous ones...
And I would have chosen a different director for all of the Prequel Trilogy movies, giving the movies an edge, making them more violent and intense. I would have wanted all the PT movies rated AT LEAST PG-13. All of Lucas' absurd decisions to put knee-slapping BS in both TPM and AOTC is inexcusable.

 

Mindless means they have no mind at all. Lucas said that they are not capable of human thought, the way the Stormtroopers are. A droid can take orders, but is not adapatable the same way a human or a clone of a human is capable of being. Humans have imagination. Droids do not. A human can be creative. A droid cannot.

The leadership of the droid commanders was for organization purposes. Unlike the Terminators created by Skynet, which were designed for both cannon fodder and covert operations, they had to be capable of blending for the most part. But the T-800 (Arnold) was designed with two parts to its CPU. A read only setting and a write only setting. A flick of the switch, before the CPU chip is inserted, allows for the Terminator to think. To be creative. To learn and adapt accordingly. Hence once John made the adjustment, the T-800 was capable of learning and growing. The T-800 in T3 had already had that adjustment made by John, before it's failsafe program killed him.

The Droid Army did not have such a capacity. The droid commanders were mainly there to take orders and direct troops. They were capable of issuing orders, but not being adapative. Hence being easily confused by Qui-gon, or relying on the gas instead of opening fire. Or the Super Battle Droids not even paying attention to Artoo right off the bat.

Who says that they weren't sent down there to disable the Eta-2? Just take out the ships. They heard and spotted Artoo, which they knew was not supposed to be over at the data terminal port. I'm more than certain that Astromechs weren't supposed to be in there, much less where Artoo was.

 

I wouldn't say that. The droids are shown to be capable of creative thought.

If you have an army running off of programming, with said programming being directed by organic sentients, what's the point of having a leader in the ranks? What's the point of having rank in an automated force? Why not just have that programming for all the droids, that is if they're not capable of thought. It seems rather pointless to have an automated machine be given preferential status above the rest when it's built just like all the others. Why make it a commander? Why have the droids address them as commanders or officers? If they're mindless automations, why do they need the semblance of military ranks amongst themselves?

The fact there are leaders amongst the droids shows there are some capable of exemplary feats. Meaning, they are capable of uniqueness. They have their own personality, have the capacity for wit, so they are shown to take in what they see, process it, and come up with a witicism that results from experiences. The fact they have wit shows they take in their experiences, think about it, and can deliver it in a personalized and reformed fashion that is unique to themselves. They have personality, which is indicative of a creative mind, one that is capable of adapting. Personality is the result of adapting to years of stimuli, molding one to what they are at the moment.

Back to the leadership point, if they are all automated, they don't need a leader amongst them to tell them what to do. That defeats the purpose of programming them and sending them out into the field independently of any organic sentient. The fact they need direction shows they have some sort of independence, they have a form of free will, a creative mind that needs to be harnessed and focused. Hence the need for a leader.

But how was it done? Was it a clean scan? No. They had banter between them. If they're fully automated, with programming that directs their actions, why would they need to communicate with each other? Why would they need conversation? It should be self-contained, where they process the information internally to see if anything goes against their programming, spotting foreign elements in the scene. Does a virus scanner make small talk with the user as it searches the system for suspicious activity? N

 

Loco
It seems rather pointless to have an automated machine be given preferential status above the rest when it's built just like all the others. Why make it a commander? Why have the droids address them as commanders or officers? If they're mindless automations, why do they need the semblance of military ranks amongst themselves?

The fact there are leaders amongst the droids shows there are some capable of exemplary feats. Meaning, they are capable of uniqueness

Good points.

 

Why thank you, good sir.

 

RE: Would the PT have been too violent if battle droids weren't used?

No. Look at all of Jabba's henchmen that Luke hacked up. And that wasn't too violent.

EDIT: Not only that, but look at the scene where Anakin kills the Seperatist leaders.

 

Except that the former was really self defense while the latter was simply a massacure.

 

Not to mention that ROTS was rated PG-13 and could get away with that easier.

 

True. But I think the rating was really a result of the immolation scene.

 

I don't know if it would have been TOO violent, but I'm sure one of the reasons droids were used for saber fodder was because of the violence of someone getting hacked up.

But good point about Luke vs. Jabba's henchmen. That was tastefully done, no blood, no limbs flying, no decapitations. But I don't think that style would have held THROUGHOUT the PT. For a 5 minute fight, yeah, but for 3 movies, no.

I DO wish that the clone wars were between clones vs. clones, or at least clones vs. humans. That's what I always imagined as a kid, watching the OT.

HC

 

Actually, Lucas addressed this in the bonus features on TPM DVD. He said it was a plot point. I can't remember EXACLTY how he put it, but to paraphrase, GL said something like: Darth Sidious uses battle droids as a means to get what he wants, but since the Jedi "slice them up like butter", Sidious has to create clones troopers. (Although, I think he used the term "stormtroopers".)

 

Well, yes, Mateous, but still, out-of-universe, you know he used battle-droids at least, partially, because the Jedi could hack them up endlessley without worrying about too much violence.

 

True. It does make it easier to send heads, limbs and torsos flying in every direction. From a certain point of view.

 

Yeah just think of the separatist slaughter in ROTS. I mean, it was cool that they added the fiery wound (you know what I mean) but it still was just like the Jabba henchmen deaths in ROTJ. They get hit and fall down, all in one piece. Cool for one scene, but imagine if you had to see that through 3 movies?

 

It would lose it's effectiveness. We would become desensitized. I think, by using the battle droids, scenes where humans are killed or maimed are more emotionally jarring. It's like..."Wow! Anakin is PISSED OFF!"

EDIT: If anyone has seen sleepy hollow...the first beheading is startling. Each beheading after that is less effective. After a while, it's like yah yah, he's gonna lose his head "whoop-dee-doo".

 

Exactly. And, it would get repetative. Lightsaber wound, fall down, lightsaber wound, fall down. Think of all the cool stuff they did with the droid deaths- limbs and pieces falling everywhere, decapitations, explosions, sparks, molten pieces rolling around- much flashier and more entertaining.

 

The Mandalorian Issue

Boba and Jango being "mandalorian super-commandos" is mentioned in the AotC visual guide, which is an official tie in with the film.

Besides, if you're saying that "mandalorians only exist in the EU becuase the word 'mandalorian' is never spoken in the films", then are you also saying that we don't know Mace Windu's first name because it's never mentioned in the films? Or Ki-Adi-Mundi's name? Or any number of different characters that are never referred to by name?

"Oh, but they're in the credits" I hear you cry.

Yeah, just like like "mandalorian armour" is written on the tags for Boba and Jango's costumes.

Main Topic

As for the Jedi fighting droids... I *wouldn't* have minded - had they been awesome looking droids that didn't have ridiculous baby-voices. That really erodes the setting's credibility for me. Why would you give your *army* of battle droids such crap voices?

The OT was made to appeal to *everyone*, children and adults alike - everyone could enjoy it.
Everyone *can* enjoy the PT too, but in many regards it's much more childish - or rather, split into clear areas of "being childish" (stupid droid voices) and "being adult" (limb chopping, melting skin) which provides a really jarring and somewhat irritating contrast.

 

We had six films of people getting shot and falling down. Someone gets shot, there's a little flash in their belly, and they fall down. Six films, is that not "tiring?" They look relatively simple, and they're all humanoid. Why would three films of humanoids getting slashed across the chest be repetative, but six films of people getting shot and falling over with sparks isn't? It isn't just armored characters getting shot, so it's not a case of "they're dehumanized because they wear masks, its like the droids." We see many Rebel troops get shot and hit the dirt, we see their faces as they twirl around and fall, or just take to their knees. Watching people get shot wasn't too intense, so people flailing after a saber swing shouldn't be too different.

 

People getting shot and falling down is fine, because that's what you expect them to do. You're not expecting their arms to fly off or their abdomens to burst. But when someone get's sliced by a lightsaber those kind of things (and worse) should happen. Think of braveheart, and that's mild. Not talking about blood, because obviously lightsabers instantly cauterize wounds (besides Ponda Baba's) but there should be more happening than someone flinching and then falling down (ala Jabba's henchmen). So my point is, for a few scenes in the OT and PT, that kind of unrealistic lightsaber death is fine, because its not overdone. But if you had as many humans or aliens getting sabered as droids in the PT, I think it would get repetative and the " fake-ness " would show through.

 

That's disingenuous though. There's no reason why one form of "fakeness" is tolerated while another is discounted simply because it's hypothetical. If you want realism, people don't just fall down when they're shot, they don't just spin back in a choreographed manner. Where's the blood? Where's the twitching before/after death? You mentioned Braveheart, what about Saving Private Ryan? That's a realistic depiction of what happens when you have two massive armies between random gunfire. Why aren't people clamoring about Rebel soldiers not getting shot in the eye? Or losing a limb when shot in the shoulder (resulting in the severing of the tendons at the joint due to something passing at a velocity greater than what the body is capable of sustaining)? Or the blood splatter that would happen before the "cauterization?"

Like I said, it's very disingenuous to say one form of "fakness" is okay for six movies and doesn't become "boring" yet put down a hypothetical one on its same merits.

As it is, one could say the droid cutting became boring as it was pretty much the same:

Saber slash, pose, metallic clank as droids hit the floor and/or parts fly.

Where's the fun in watching weak tinker toys get cut down in the same fashion for three movies? With humanoid characters at least there's a greater sense of relation, it resonates more as we can draw a connection, a relation. Droids getting cut up in a repetitive fashion, with no real need to care, has all the fun of melting a toy soldier in the microwave. It's fun for a little while, but gets old really fast.

 

Saving Private Ryan's beach head scene at the start was great for shock value, but what if they basically repeated the same thing about another four or five times over the rest of the movie? It would greatly diminish it. It would be "Oh my God!" then "Wow, that's bad" then "Looks rough" then "Another one?"

Anything repeated enough becomes repetative, regardless of the subject matter. Did people care about each and every guy that gets killed in the Jabba Sail Barge battle? No, because after a while it's just a bunch of goons attacking Luke and the others, not individual personalities.

If every droid in the PT was replaced by living, breathing beings then you'd still feel the exact same way at the end - it's lots of Random Opponents getting killed. Of course, the censor board would blow a gasket at that much non-droid violence and shove the rating up a notch or two, but that's another issue...

 

I think the difference is that in Braveheart and Saving Private Ryan, you have people being killed in battle. But that doesn't work in Star Wars, because a key concept behind Jedi Knights is that they are elite warriors. Every time they encounter their enemies, they don't defeat them--they massacre them. When someone dies in a battle, it sorta implies that their death meant something, whether it's to help win a battle, to fight tyranny, etc. But when you're getting owned by lightsaber-wielding killing machines, you more or less get the idea that your death doesn't mean anything. And I get the feeling that such meaningless deaths, like the ones experienced by our lifeless droids, could be more prone to censorship than the blood and gore seen in some other movies.

Anyway, I think it's kinda unfortunate that the only way we could see the legendary Jedi Knights in action is to give them skinny metal practice targets to whack.

 

So...the point now is that anything can become repetitive if it happens more than once in a film? I take it both trilogies in the entire Star Wars saga are now now boring and repetitive simply due to the fact we have the same style of fantasy violence.

 

Definitely makes for great entertainment. Plus, it's not so harrowing. It's terrifying to see a human get gutted and scream in agony. When a droid gets chopped to pieces, you can cheer and laugh.