PT Would Things Have Been Different Had Quigon Jin Been Anakins Master? Would He Still Become a Sith?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by SkywalkerJedi02, Jul 3, 2013.

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  1. SkywalkerJedi02 Jedi Master

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    Jul 3, 2013
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    I just Feel that Anakin didnt really respect Obi-Won as much and Quigon could of helped Anakin as feel Obi-Won failed him in his time of need.

    So would things have been different? I think they would have because Anakin saw him as a master & it took Anakin along time to even show Obi-Won any level of respect.
  2. Major Smith Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2013
    I don't think so, I mean it wouldn't of changed Anakins core. Yoda and the council warned that Anakin was too old and that he had attachment issues. I think Obi-wan did as a good a job as anyone, I just cant see Qui-Gon being able to do anything drastic that would stop Anakin from turning to the dark side.
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  3. MOC Yak Face Old Films' Curator

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    ^ ^ ^ I agree with this. What was going on inside Anakin and Palpatine's ability to exploit that would've been no different with Qui Gon around. Qui Gon may have mede a few different noises about things, but I don't think he was influential enough with the council to affect much change in the way the dealt with things.
  4. LunarMoth Force Ghost

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    Nov 27, 2012
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    Qui-Gon was the voice of reason that the Jedi Council should have been listening to. Many feel that Qui-Gon was wrong in wanting Anakin trained, but if we have learned anything from Star Wars it should be that life is about choices. The Jedi order chose not to nurture Anakin, even though they seemed to think he was the "Chosen One." They made Anakin distrust then from the very beginning. Anakin was nervous leaving Tatooine, like any kid would be, but Qui-Gon made him comfortable and showed him respect. The Jedi Council made him feel unwanted. First by denying his training, and right in front of him, and also belittled Qui-Gon in doing so.

    It always seemed clear to be that Obi-Wan was in over his head with Anakin, although he cared and was trying. We see in Ep II that the two dont always get along. This always came off the me as Anakin acting out on what he took at the Jedi in general not giving him his due. He took it out on Obi-Wan, perhaps more than he should have, but based on the Jedi Council's attitude towards Anakin was most certainly not much different than it was in Ep I. Come Ep III, denying Anakin the rank of Master was the last straw, and arguably the straw that broke the camels back in terms of Palpatines ability to persuade him to turn.

    The potential for things to have been radically different was surely there with Qui-Gon. That was the whole point. And as such, the remaining Jedi, Obi and Yoda, came to learn that Qui-Gon was far greater a Jedi than anyone knew.
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  5. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    Jan 1, 2011
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    Things might have been different if Qui-Gon survived, though it's impossible to know for sure, of course.

    Personally, I lean towards the side that Anakin wouldn't have turned, for a number of reasons:

    1. Palpatine wouldn't have been able to get his hooks in so deep. Anakin was clearly looking for a father figure and I think he tried to force Obi-Wan (who wasn't ready) into that role. The gap that was left behind was filled by Palpatine instead and I think it gave him a great deal of influence over Anakin's thoughts and development.

    2. Qui-Gon saw with his own eyes how Anakin lived as a slave, met Watto and Shmi, and ventured out into Tatooine. He had a much greater understanding of what Anakin's life was like before joining the Jedi Order and I think this might well have mitigated some problems.

    3. Qui-Gon trusted Anakin. He had great faith in him even when it seemed fool-hardy. This, in many ways, parallels Luke's faith in his father's goodness (despite all evidence to the contrary). Obi-Wan always seemed more on edge and reticent with Anakin and his training (with good reason, mind you), but I think this proved a big stumbling block between them. The issue of trust is especially highlighted in ROTS where Anakin feels that Obi-Wan and the Council don't trust him (although ironically, this is when Obi-Wan has come to trust him) and turns to Palpatine instead.

    4. Qui-Gon was willing to be non-conformist. Obi-Wan is an ideal Jedi of old, but the flip side with that is that I think he had difficulty adapting to Anakin's unique and unorthodox situation -- one that Qui-Gon would have handled better, I think.

    I do think Anakin respected Obi-Wan, but this respect was tinged with frustration and also greatly undermined by Palpatine's contrary advice/claims. With Qui-Gon, I think these factors would have been mitigated.

    Also note that Qui-Gon was Dooku's apprentice and if Qui-Gon had survived, I think it unlikely that Dooku would have sought out the Sith which could have greatly altered the course of galactic history.

    But then, I've always felt that Qui-Gon's death was a major turning point in the Saga: Anakin losing his "father," Obi-Wan being forced to take on a challenge/responsibility too early, and Dooku being pushed towards darkness.
  6. MOC Yak Face Old Films' Curator

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    Good points. To stop Anakin from turning, however, Qui Gon would've had to have made Anakin accept the fact that he may lose Padme as he did his mother, and not be tempted by Palpatine's suggestion that he could prevent this from happening. That would be a major stumbling block in saving Anakin imo.
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  7. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    Jan 1, 2011
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    That's certainly true. However, I think it's possible that Qui-Gon may have insisted that Anakin be allowed to keep contact with his mother. Unlike the other Jedi, he actually met Shmi and we know he also tried to free her so it may be possible that he would have allowed Anakin to at least be aware of how she was doing.

    One of the major problems I've always sensed with Anakin is that he is very isolated among the Jedi --> he seems to have few friends there. This is present in the films, I think, but made more explicit in the deleted scenes where Anakin tells Padmé that when he was growing up, he was very lonely and often thought of her and Naboo to cheer himself up.

    I think Anakin, at age nine, was as normal a boy as could be expected for his situation -- he certainly had a good friend on Tatooine, even as a slave. But it seems to me that his attachments grew pathological because he had so few people to fall back on. Qui-Gon, I think, might have been able to help stabilize him a bit. But that's just my feeling.
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  8. MOC Yak Face Old Films' Curator

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    Yeah, I think the Shmi situation is key. But would Qui Gon have had enough influence to have Anakin spend time with his mother?

    The connection between the Jedi's attitude towards Anakin and his ultimate demise is the great SW chicken and the egg situation isn't it. Was the fear that they identified the cause of his fall, or was it the way they treated him based on their initial assessment?
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  9. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    I think Qui-Gon would have been able to pull it off and get Anakin at least some knowledge of his mother's situation. Don't forget, even after the Council rejected Anakin, he stated that he would train him. And I have very little doubt that he would have gone through with it.

    As to the "chicken and egg" question, I think it's a bit of both, personally. I think Anakin's early fears definitely played a part in his fall (particularly his fear of loss), but at the same time, I think this is a natural fear and could have been curbed had a different approach been taken. In essence, I think the Jedi unwittingly exacerbated the problem by trying to force Anakin into a mold he couldn't fit into, given his background.

    In large part, I think Anakin needed a larger emotional support system with the Jedi. One striking point, I've always found, is that when Anakin has visions of Padmé dying, he goes to see Yoda for a rather formal meeting. It just seems as though, besides Obi-Wan, he's not really friends with anyone in the Order. When you look at Obi-Wan, for example, you do see him having more casual conversations with Yoda and Mace -- and he even has friends outside the Temple too like Dex.

    With Anakin, he has friends as a kid (such as Kitster) but as an adult (particularly after his mother dies), all of his emotional investment is in Obi-Wan, Palpatine, and Padmé. Given that his relationship with Obi-Wan is strained, his relationship with Palpatine is malignant, and his relationship with Padmé is threatened, it just strikes me as a very precarious state of affairs that could have easily been rectified when Anakin was a child had the Jedi known which signs to look for.
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  10. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Grand Master

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    Jun 27, 2013
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    I personally think Anakin would have turned no matter what.

    Although Qui-Gon may have filled the role as "father figure" better than Obi Wan. There's no way Qui-Gon could have been vigilant
    enough to make certain that the Supreme Chancellor didn't develop a relationship with Anakin. Therein lies the problem.

    Sidious was sneaky, and capable, enough to fool the jedi for over 10 years. Eventually he would have found Anakin's weaknesses,
    and exploited them, effectively turning him against the jedi. If it wasn't his love for Padme that was the catalyst for his turn, it would
    have been something else. Everyone has their weaknesses, and Sidious was a master at finding out what those weaknesses were.

    A man who can exploit the weaknesses of the entire Republic, the entire jedi order, and everyone who considered him an ally, would find a
    way to manipulate one young man.
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  11. MOC Yak Face Old Films' Curator

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    The problem was that Anakin felt powerless to overcome his greatest fears and someone else was offering him a means to attain the power to do just that. That's some serious temptation. Shmi not dying as she did would've helped this situation, because Anakin wouldn't have been quite so obsessed with the same thing happening to Padme. Unless Qui-Gon could've stopped that, I don't believe he would've made much difference to the final outcome.
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  12. Aegon Starcaster Jedi Grand Master

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    Jun 27, 2013
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    One of the things that I've always marveled about with Sidious was that he was able to continually implement his plans. No matter what.
    I think all the jedi were afraid of one thing or another. Obi wan, for example, feared the death of the jedi order, and the fall of
    the galaxy into darkness.

    The things is, Sidious didn't have an interest in turning most of the jedi to the darkside, so he paid no attention to most of them.
    When he did need one of them, he went out and found one (Dooku) and turned him, offering him promises, and playing against
    his weaknesses. That's why I maintain that if Anakin were in totally different circumstances, he still would have had weaknesses to exploit.
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  13. Legolas Skywalker Force Ghost

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    Sep 3, 2012
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    Anakin would have still turned regardless
  14. MOC Yak Face Old Films' Curator

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    Aegon, I agree about Palpatine's ability to respond to circumstances.

    Something I found interesting in the PT was the contrast between him and the Jedi in the way in which the dealt with what was right in front of them. The Jedi seemed often to be obsessed about the past (the code) or what the future may bring. Because of this they missed what was going on right before their eyes. Qui Gon was perhaps the exception to this and it's interesting that only at the end of ROTS was his wisdom fully acknowledged.

    Palpatine, on the other hand, was all about playing what was right in front of him at any given time. When it became aware of the relationship between Anakin and Padme, he utilised it to the full. When he was dueling with Mace and Anakin walked in, he responded in the way which would get the best result in terms of his power. I reckon that, even more than his ability for grand scheming, is what allowed him to come to power.
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  15. Darth Dominikkus Jedi Grand Master

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    Apr 5, 2013
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    I think maybe the process of how he turned to the dark side could have been different. What I'm thinking about is the duel on Mustafar and how that would have been. Imagine Vader dueling Quigon rather than Kenobi doing it, what, then, would the outcome have been?
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  16. MOC Yak Face Old Films' Curator

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    It certainly would've been dramatic having Anakin up against the guy who rescued him from slavery and started him off on his whole Jedi journey. All the more heart breaking.
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  17. Darth Dominikkus Jedi Grand Master

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    Apr 5, 2013
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    Oh yes, that's what I was thinking. As emotional and upsetting as it was to see Kenobi and Skywalker dueling each other, once brothers, seeing Jinn and Skywalker dueling would be even more devastating. The rescuer and the rescued.
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  18. LunarMoth Force Ghost

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    Nov 27, 2012
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    The issue really takes place before this though. Had Qui-Gon been granted permission to train Anakin from the very begining, and assuming he wasn't killed by Maul, the seed of distrust in the Jedi would never have been planted in Anakin. That being said, I dont think Palpatine would have had the opportunity to groom Anakin the way he did without Qui-Gon. This would also imply that Anakins relationship with Padme may have been radically different as Anakin would not have been as likely to sneak around like that under Qui-Gons teaching.

    Palpatine, from the very begining, used the fact that the Jedi were uneasy about Anakin in order to influence him. He was constantly telling Anakin, subtly at first, that the Jedi were beneath him, didnt trust him, and that he was better than them. Qui-Gons survival would have cut the head of that snake from the get go.
    Last edited by LunarMoth, Jul 9, 2013
  19. MOC Yak Face Old Films' Curator

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    Yes, it would've been a completely different relationship with the Jedi had Qui Gon survived and Palpatine wouldn't have had the same leverage with which to work on Anakin. Could he have prevented the feelings of powerlessness Anakin felt about his mother's death and Padme's fate? Could he have prevented Palpatine from offering a seemingly irresistible solution to that? It's an interesting question to be sure.
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  20. TX-20 Force Ghost

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    Jun 21, 2013
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    At least we know that had Anakin been taken by the DarkSide, Qui-Gon would have rescued him.
  21. Valairy Scot Chosen One

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    Sep 16, 2005
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    ^ And how do "we know that"?
  22. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

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    We don’t really know how Obi-Wan was as a teacher. Considering he was newly knighted when taking his first Padawan, he didn’t really have time to come into his own terms and make his own experiences, and therefore I think that most of his teachings and teaching methods were based almost exclusively on what and how Qui-Gon had taught him (and what he had been taught as a youngling).

    I think Qui-Gon’s main advantage over Obi-Wan was his experience as both a knight and as a master. And while I don’t think Qui-Gon and Anakin as Master-Padawan would have been as perfect as many people seem to think, I think Qui-Gon’s experience and nature would make him more flexible and more adaptable to the challenges Anakin presented as an apprentice. I also think the fact that Anakin practically worshipped Qui-Gon would have made him less likely to question Qui-Gon’s lead (at least in the early years; teenagers will always try and push the limits).

    That being said, unless Qui-Gon could keep Anakin away from Palpatine’s influence I don’t think him being Anakin’s master would have made a difference, and I think that would have been next to impossible unless he expressly forbid Anakin from seeing him (and that would only work until Anakin was knighted): IMO, Anakin didn’t seek out Palpatine because he lacked a father figure, but because he was an exceptionally insecure person who was in constant need of having his ego stroked, and Palpatine never failed in that regard. Also, Anakin knew he could tell him anything and Palpatine would always tell him what he wanted to hear, always support him, and never impose consequences on him – Anakin could have admitted to being a child rapist and still Palpatine would not have censured him.

    It’s impossible to say exactly what would have happened if Qui-Gon had lived and trained Anakin, many things would be different for sure, but in the end I don’t think it would have made a difference because:

    - no other person could ever be what Palpatine was to Anakin, thus he would still have a big influence on Anakin.
    - no person could have taught Anakin to let go of the people he cared for, so if faced with a scenario similar to the one in RotS, Anakin would have made the same decision.
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  23. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    Mar 4, 2011
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    I've gone back and forth on this one since 1999, and still do. But the bottom line is this: if Anakin still had his overwhelming fear of loss and was still greatly under Palpatine's influence, he would have turned anyway.

    If Qui-Gon had rescued Shmi and kept her in contact with Anakin, and if he had kept Anakin away from Palpatine, he might have been able to change the course of events. Otherwise, no.

    Side note: Qui-Gon arguing with Plagueis in that novel was hilarious, and I would love to see an Infinities version of the prequels in which he takes on Palpatine that way.
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  24. MOC Yak Face Old Films' Curator

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    I wholeheartedly agree. Shmi was the key. If she'd not died as she did, the obsession with losing Padme may not have been quite so all-consuming, therefore not providing Palpatine with quite the same leverage.
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  25. Alexrd Force Ghost

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    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    I don't think he would. Taking into account the kind of character Qui-Gon was, I believe he would eventually help Anakin try to free Shmi (if Cliegg didn't do it first), and allow him to have some sort of contact or way to check in on her welfare. However, I don't believe he would allow or ignore Anakin's romantic relationship with Padmé, let Palpatine "look over his career with great interest", or stop his plans of destroying the Jedi order and becoming Emperor. Of course that would open an whole can of worms with Dooku eventually becoming a Sith Lord and if Qui-Gon would be affected or not.

    This is, of course, all pure speculation.
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