PT Would Things Have Been Different Had Quigon Jin Been Anakins Master? Would He Still Become a Sith?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by SkywalkerJedi02, Jul 3, 2013.

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  1. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    I don't know whether or not Anakin would have become a Sith Lord if Qui-Gon had remained his Jedi master. Only Lucas knows.
  2. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7

    And who knows if he even thought that through.

    That would be a good Bill Moyers interview question.
  3. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3

    Hmmm...which fits rather nicely with the idea that... Obi-Wan should have been the Qui-Gon character in TPM.
  4. Vialco Force Ghost

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    Mar 6, 2007
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    This is a good question that many have asked. Qui-Gon was Anakin's true mentor, and Obi-Wan was handed the task by default.

    I think that things would have been different for Anakin and maybe even Dooku. But I doubt the survival of one Jedi Master would have changed the overall fate of the galaxy.

    With or without Dooku, Sidious would have unleashed the Clone Wars. The Jedi would still have fought and Order 66 would still have wiped out the vast majority.

    Qui-Gon's survival might have changed things for Anakin and Dooku though, and Darth's Vader and Tyranus might never have existed.

    Qui-Gon's survival would no doubt have been good for the Jedi and Republic.

    But it would not change the fact that the Dark Lord of the Sith was now the Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic.
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  5. SkywalkerJedi02 Jedi Master

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    Jul 3, 2013
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    Yes I agree it was palpatines manipulation of the senate not just Anakin that led to the downfall of the Jedi & The Republic.
  6. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    See, I disagree. I think that Qui-Gon's character is necessary precisely because he demonstrates how Anakin, Obi-Wan, and the Council got off on the wrong foot and this not only gave Palpatine an opening but strained Anakin's relationship with the Jedi. I think Anakin's turn would have been far less credible had Obi-Wan himself been the one to rescue Anakin from slavery. As it stands, I find it much more realistic that Anakin could believe that the Council is using him as a pawn -- as Palpatine states -- than if they had agreed with freeing him in the first place.

    I think, as it stands, it's very tragic in the sense that Anakin never really got a chance to feel at home with the Jedi and is isolated among their ranks. Which is why he seeks out and maintains such strong ties to Palpatine and Padmé -- two individuals he met during the crisis on Naboo.
  7. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    Take a look at what I was responding to. What you highlight is what I've said that bugs me more than anything else about the PT; its set up as a bunch of reasons why Anakin would turn. There's little sense that Anakin was seduced to the darkside, its more that he was cajoled and buffeted into it. Aren't we supposed to understand that Luke was close to falling in ROTJ? Is that unbelieveable then, because he wasn't pushed away by anybody; he didn't seem to be resentful about his mentors or about what he was fighting for.

    Lucas sets it up in TPM with Anakin just young enough, and yet just old enough that he'll miss his mom; that the 'choice' that he makes is a wrench. Its set up so that he is a 'special one' so that Qui-Gon is 'destined' to take him. Its set up so that he feels isolated, and the introduction of Qui-Gon and his early PTM death is an aspect of that. Its set up so that his marriage to Padmé has to be a secret, where there is no talk of that in the preliminary dicussions on the prequel(s).

    What could have been a story about how a good person comes to do bad things is nullified, it becomes instead a story swept up by notions of (variously) 'destiny', the punishing hand (or hammer) of 'god', everybody else made him do it, what choice did he have.

    So, what I was responding to was the idea that, had the story been told differently; had it been about the choices that Anakin made, then the emotional impact of the duel in ANH would have been heightened; instead it has lost something.
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  8. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    Your argument doesn't hold water with me. I get the feeling that you want it simplified. I think Anakin found it easier to betray the Jedi for the sake of Padme, due to his strained relations with the Jedi. Yes, there was conflict within him in regard to his betrayal. I don't know how Qui-Gon would have reacted to Anakin's feelings for Padme. Either he would have gone the Obi-Wan route and be totally against it or teach Anakin how to deal with the inner conflict he felt between his love for Padme and his loyalty toward Jedi. But since Anakin had to deal with a more conservative Jedi as teacher (Obi-Wan) following Qui-Gon's death, it makes Lucas' decision to allow the latter to be the first Jedi presence in Anakin's life more interesting. At least for me.


    However, I disagree with this statement. Despite the occasional strained relations Anakin had with Obi-Wan, he still managed to form some of connection with the older man. And as far as I'm concerned, the emotional impact was not lost. Perhaps for you, but not for me.
    Last edited by DRush76, Jul 13, 2013
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  9. DRush76 Force Ghost

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    Jan 25, 2008
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    I meant to add that Qui-Gon represented what Anakin had the potential become - someone more emotionally balanced and able to deal with the choices and conflicts in his life. But that potential ended with Qui-Gon's death. And Anakin was left with the more conservative Obi-Wan as his teacher.
    Last edited by DRush76, Jul 13, 2013
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  10. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    I'm not quite sure why that "bugs" you about the PT -- that's essentially the story. The PT is the story of how the Republic became the Empire, how the Jedi were destroyed, and how Anakin fell to the Dark Side. I don't really understand how you expect that to be achieved without showing the reasons for Anakin's turn. Reasons, not excuses. Because at the end of the day, there's only one person responsible for Anakin's actions -- and that's Anakin himself.

    Why was Anakin seduced in the first place? Lust for power, yes, but that his turn has multiple components involved does not diminish the fact that Anakin was seduced by Palpatine. Palpatine enticed him to make a choice that was, in the end, foolhardy -- which is precisely the definition of seduction. But no one makes choices in a vacuum and the PT gets into not only Anakin's character flaws (which are mostly expounded upon in AOTC), but also the circumstances that led him to making the choices he made.

    Luke didn't turn in large part because he found a warm and accepting environment where he quickly made many friends. Our choices are informed by our experiences and Anakin had a variety of experiences in his life that led him to make the choice he did. That doesn't mean his choices aren't his own, though, and he shouldn't face the consequences.

    The story was told to show how everyone's choices mattered. How, had the Jedi perhaps treated Anakin differently, things might have been different. Or if Padmé had put her foot down and said she couldn't be with Anakin. Or if Anakin had been able to save his mother on time. Or if Anakin had chosen to stay in the Council chambers and not betray the Jedi.

    The story is about the choices Anakin made and I would argue that the emotional impact of the duel in ANH is heightened. But it's about other people's choices too. Anakin messed up, but he certainly wasn't the only one.
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  11. SkywalkerJedi02 Jedi Master

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    Jul 3, 2013
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    well it wasn't the power lust in him that made him leave the council chambers remember palpatine was telling him that if the jedi kill me any hope of saving padme will be lost and u see Anakin crying because he doesn't want to betray the jedi must in his mind he knows he must to save padme's life.
  12. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Not completely, no -- his love for Padmé was the primary motivator to go after Mace Windu and save Palpatine. But power still plays a key element -- Anakin wants to power to stop people from dying. Anakin's problem is that he tries to remedy his issues by accumulating more power -- the answer (in his mind) to his fear of losing Padmé is to make sure that he's powerful enough to prevent it. In that sense, his lust for power definitely comes into play.
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  13. Darth Dominikkus Jedi Grand Master

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    Apr 5, 2013
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    What says that he would have been rescued? Jinn could just as easily have been killed by Anakin or been Anakin's killer.
  14. Jetedonne Pur-Pureus Force Ghost

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    May 25, 2013
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    One of the main reasons given for Anakin’s turn to the dark side was stated in ROTS to Padme, as he believed that Obi-Wan and the Jedi Council didn’t believe in him, and therefore they were holding him back. In that respect, Anakin presumably couldn’t argue that Qui-Gon didn’t have faith in him, as it was Qui-Gon who presented Anakin’s capabilities to the Jedi Council. Also, when the Jedi Council refused to train Anakin, 'twas again Qui-Gon who took to the task of asking Obi-Wan to train him, following being struck down in battle by Darth Maul.

    Even in The Clone Wars canon, he made a surprise appearance, and continued to tout Anakin’s potential as the inevitable “Chosen One”. So yeah, in my opinion Anakin would have stayed a Jedi if Qui-Gon had continued to train him.
    Last edited by Jetedonne Pur-Pureus, Jul 14, 2013
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  15. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
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    Yes. That's what bugs me... or rather, what Lucas decided to make the story bugs me. I'll try and keep it brief, because there are a number of reasons that tie in together.


    What reasons are we given from the OT. He was seduced to the dark side. You argue that we are shown that, I argue it differently. I see a couple of reasons why Lucas chose the story that he did and it bugs me because a) aspects of it conflicts with what the OT showed and, perhaps more importantly, because of that aspects of the OT story are subsumed into a whole other story and get lost in the noise.

    That isn't the definition of seduction by the darkside. He is tricked into an action on a promise that isn't kept. As he uis told that, in his anger he killed her (Padmé) - and that he had been told by Sidious to let his anger give him strength; in fact as he knows Sidious has been behind every evil thing that has been going on, why does he remain that evil persona for twenty or so years? It makes no sense.You know, he's not supposed to be stupid, he's portrayed in the OT as a very capable strategist...able to think then. And yet, he never figures out that..'hmmm... this Sidious has been behind every bad thing that has happened in my life'. In order to fit the idea that this man was seduced by the darkside, such that he remains in its thrall for twenty some years, I would expect to be shown how he could actually believe in what he's doing. What we get instead is 'Doh...I made the wrong choice...still, now that I've done it....'

    I have great difficulty accepting that the OT Darth Vader is the product of the PT, for those reasons.

    Here we have, as I said above, the themes of the OT subsumed by the themes of the PT. Luke only acted the way he did because he found a welcoming environment....? His adoptive parents have been brutally murdered, his 'father' has rejected him... if he acts in ROTJ to destroy Vader then he - as far as he can tell - has nothing to lose and perhaps everything to gain. His friends have arrived into a trap. The reason that he makes the choice that he makes is because he understands the lessons the Jedi have taught him - and these are a) that because he has the power to do something , that doesn't make it right and b) that acting in anger and hatred would make his actions wrong. He sees Vader's mechanical hand, remembers his own; empathy - there but for the grace of god etc. His enemy isn't Vader, it is giving his 'soul' to the Emperor, to the darkside. The Vader in the OT responds to that, turning aside from his subverted darkside beliefs. But they have to be that, he has to be understood as believing the lies of Sidious in order for it to work, imo.

    What makes his turn all the less believable is that he takes those actions (killing the younglings, leading the purge of the Jedi Temple) not in anger, but coldly, calculated - in order to gain the power to save Padmé.

    You see...here you unravel the 'everybody else did it to him'. I'll add; maybe if Qui-Gon could see what the other Jedi could - what a wrench it was to remove him from his mother. Lucas brought into the 'mythology' aspect of story-telling; whereas in the OT he managed to subvert the archetypes (which was, imo, what made it a modern myth) here he reverts to mythological standards. He has a 'chosen one' (and Luke is 'special' because he is the son of his 'chosen one'/demi-god) and Anakin's tale is (as Lucas has described it) a tragedy. The thing about tragedies (as Lucas knows) is that...the tragic hero is destined to his choices. No matter how much he fights it (his dreams of Padmé) he will bring about that which he is destined to. So...the story must be set up so that Anakin will make the choices he does. The idea of him being seduced by the darkside is put aside to fit the tragic-hero formula.

    This laters many aspects of the OT, imo.
    It renders Vader's character almost unbelievable (as I addressed above)
    The Jedi must have only come about their wisdom in the last twenty years; prior to that they are an ascetic, out of touch, cold gathering of monks. How on Coruscant they managed to hold together the peace and stability of the Republic and its 'democracy' for a thousand generations (or even a thousand years) is beyond me.

    (as an aside, in terms of the alleged coldness offered to Anakin - specifically - by the Council... see how Obi-Wan is treated by both Qui-Gon and the Council in TPM)

    The thing about myths is...does nobody think about where they come from? What their purpose was? They are to do with bolstering inheritable power and privilege; the clue is in the genealogical nature of them, and their deistic origins. That's why the burgeoning North European post-Roman Kingdoms brought into Christianity (one of the jobs of the early Church was to create Kingly genealogies - often going back to the likes of Woden and Teusci - probably unknown as deities by the Churchmen themselves). What made the OT modern myth was that it subverted those notions, it turned mythical notions upon their head.

    That's just it. 'He messed up'...that just doesn't do it for me in terms of being seduced by the darkside; it doesn't account for the next twenty or so years of behaviour, or the relish with which Vader goes about his work.

    I think the story that we got with the PT was the simplistic version, and for me it doesn't work.
  16. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I'm not sure what you mean. Anakin was seduced by the Dark Side -- he wanted the power to save those he loved from dying. A power which he believed the Dark Side would grant him; in the end, though, Anakin's own actions rendered the powers of the Dark Side irrelevant. Once Padmé was dead, there was nothing that could be done -- and it was his own fault that she had died. And Anakin's anger does give him strength (if he can control it -- that's an important factor). His more controlled rage against Dooku helped him to destroy the other man.

    Plus, I think you are under a false impression. Anakin does realize that Sidious is responsible for terrible things. But, he also knows that the man is powerful -- look at how he has orchestrated events to his liking and his ability to conceal himself from the Jedi, for instance. Anakin wants to learn from Sidious, but then he intends to kill him. Anakin never intended to continue serving Sidious/Palpatine. When he makes the discovery of who Palpatine is, he flat out states that he would very much like to kill him. Then, later on, he tells Padmé that he plans to overthrow him. Those plans all go to hell, though, when Anakin is so severely injured.

    At the same time, though, once he's lost everything, the Dark Side and the Empire is all he has left. And Anakin is still misguided enough to believe that the Empire could be good for the galaxy. "We can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy." and "I have brought peace, freedom, justice, and security to my new empire." Anakin believed that the Empire would be better for the galaxy and that his anger could be useful -- he continues to serve Palpatine because he no longer has the strength to challenge him, but that does not mean he does not believe in the Empire or the Dark Side itself.

    Additionally, Anakin can be a capable strategist and a tactician while being emotionally unstable. The two are not mutually exclusive. Professional competency does not go hand in hand with stable relationships unfortunately. Additionally, OT Vader is portrayed as someone utterly devoted to his work and mission. He has a master and subordinates, but no real friends or meaningful interactions outside of Luke. That's hardly a healthy setup.

    Of course Luke acted the way he did in part because of his teachings. But he also acted the way he did in spite of his Jedi teachings. Don't forget that Obi-Wan and Yoda were telling him that he must confront Vader, that if Luke can't kill his father, then the Emperor has already won. It was Luke's faith in his father -- in direct contrast to the Jedi teachings -- that ultimately saved him. That doesn't mean the teachings didn't matter, but Luke had to take them and fit them into a greater whole. He is a character shaped as much by his experiences as Anakin is. How we experience things directly informs our perspective on life.

    Luke's adoptive parents die...but look at how the film presents this -- their deaths are the fuel for Luke to seek out the Rebellion and become a Jedi. They give him strength to seek out justice. There was truly nothing he could have done to save them without being killed himself. And Luke destroys the Death Star and strikes a hard blow against the Empire in justice against their deaths.

    Contrast this with Anakin's loss of his mother. Anakin could have saved her. Had he left earlier, she might have lived and thus, he feels the guilt and blame of not being strong enough to save her powerfully. Not only that, but his loss control causes him to lash out at the tribe that held her captive when he knows that such a thing was horrifically wrong.

    There's also the striking differences between the two in terms of their relationships with Palpatine. Luke has his father acting as a terrible warning to what he could become if he falls under Palpatine's thrall. Anakin, meanwhile, knew the man since he was a child and thus had his own perceptions of the world subtly altered by a figure he believed was benign.

    And Anakin's turn is believable, I would argue, because while Padmé's life is the emotional motive, Anakin also has a intellectual motive as well. He believes in the Empire (not Papatine at this point, but the concept of the Empire). He believes that the galaxy would be better if people were made to agree -- "Sounds an awful lot like a dictatorship"..."Well, if it works." And in response to Palpatine gaining more power -- "That can only mean less deliberating and more action. It will make it easier for us to end this war." He's always believed that an Empire would better suit the needs of the people (with himself and Padmé leading it by ROTS) and, what's more, by temporarily following Palpatine's orders and killing the Jedi, he can bring an end to the Clone Wars -- a conflict which has raged for years across the galaxy. Anakin says so himself multiple times -- "I'm going there to end this war" "I've brought peace to the Republic" "I've brought peace, justice, freedom, and security..."

    I'm not really sure what to address here. What evidence is there that Anakin was destined to make his choices? Plus, I think we need to address what you mean by destiny. Do you mean that everything is set in stone and that all the characters are mere pieces being moved in a galactic game? Because if that is so, I strongly disagree. If you mean destiny in terms of a purpose and a meaning that you give yourself and your life, then I might agree with you more.

    And I'm not quite sure what you mean by "the story must be set up so that Anakin will make the choices he does." That's...well...every story ever told. That's like saying that when Harry Potter goes after Sirius Black in Order of the Phoenix the story has been set up so that he must make this choice and that somehow renders it meaningless. Whereas I would counter it does not -- Harry's choice is informed by a number of things: the loss of his parents, his love of his surrogate father-figure Sirius, the need to live up to the expectations of those around him, his inability to do nothing when faced with previous visions (such as Mr. Weasley's attack), the trauma of his past experiences. Harry, as a character, makes a choice that as the reader I can understand based on his personality and his experiences. Anakin does much the same thing, in my opinion.

    I don't see how Vader's character is unbelievable. If anything, it renders him comprehensible. With the PT, I can see why Anakin chooses to stay on the Dark Side and the Empire, in spite what Palpatine has done. I can also see how Luke's faith and goodness and his love for his son are what cause him to turn back. Luke shows him the strength necessary to turn away from the Dark and Anakin's compassionate love for his son saves him from the Dark Side. He realizes that this love is more important than the Dark Side, than the Empire, than all his power that he has clung to.

    Are you really comparing the treatment of a nine year old child to the treatment of a twenty-five year old man? Visually, the point is also made quite clearly:

    [IMG]

    [IMG]

    [IMG]

    I'm not sure the OT really turns those mythical notions on their heads completely though. ANH alone, yes. But ESB and ROTJ are more ambiguous. In part, Luke's status as a hero is genealogical. He says so himself -- "the Force is strong in my family." Because of that, he and his sister Leia are denoted as the last hope and the other. And Luke's father is no simple peasant father, but the Emperor's right hand man which, importantly, Luke gets his power from. The OT does subvert a variety of notions (such as by having Vader be a villain who must be redeemed by his son, rather than an ideal to strive for), but the notion of power existing within a family is maintained.

    Of course he "messed up" -- I would hardly call the institution of a repressive, authoritative regime a resounding success. Note, though, that I was speaking in terms of morality and the effects on the galaxy. When I say Anakin messed up, I mean that he made the wrong choice in that sense. I think the PT very clearly shows that Anakin does come to believe in the Dark Side (giving into his anger and drawing power through his rage) and, as importantly, has believed in the Empire for quite a while.

    If anything, I'd argue the PT made his character more understandable and fully-formed. His obsession with his son, his utter inability to accept mistakes, his misguided idealism in the Empire, his subservience to Palpatine, his lack of hope in ROTJ, and his nature as a control-freak. The PT gives me a much deeper appreciation for the character. For me, the complete opposite of simplistic.

    That's not to say your perspective is illegitimate, but it is by no means one I share.
    Last edited by PiettsHat, Jul 15, 2013
  17. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    @PiettsHat

    I don't want to throw this thread any more off course. I will start a new thread, where I will respond to your points here. You've raised some interesting points, so thanks, and I don't want you to think I'm just ignoring them. :)
  18. SkywalkerJedi02 Jedi Master

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    Jul 3, 2013
    star 1
  19. Porkins4Ever Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2005
    Ever since my first viewing of TPM, I believed that Qui Gon's death was instrumental in the eventual downfall of Anakin. I always felt there was a reason why the music that accompanied that lightsaber battle was titled "Duel of the Fates".

    The fates decided in that duel were Darth Maul's , Qui Gon's and by extension Anakin. It always seemed to me the way TPM played out was intentional. Qui Gon should have been the one to find and train the Chosen One, but fate intervened and that duty was cast on Obi Wan. This roll of the "Fate" dice, as it were, changed the entire course of Anakin's story. Obviously, pure speculation on my part, but that's just how I view it....
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  20. JEDI-RISING Force Ghost

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    Apr 15, 2005
    star 3
    I think it would have been different. Qui-Gon had more experience, he might have taken a defter hand with Anakin. Anakin had a little more connection with Qui-Gon. He and Obi-Wan were sort of thrown together. Obi- was pretty stern with Anakin I sense. Qui-Gon might have been more balanced. Like a grandparent compared to a parent.
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  21. Darth Dominikkus Jedi Grand Master

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    Apr 5, 2013
    star 3
    Perhaps Qui Gon would have been able to use his words and his emotions to sway Anakin from the dark side without using his lightsaber.

    No use for "aggressive negotiations".
  22. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    If Anakin was truly not subject to Because Destiny Says So, then Qui-Gon's influence I think would have made a difference. Obi-Wan was a brand-spankin' new Jedi Knight when he picked up Anakin as a student. He didn't have the decades of experience under his belt that Qui-Gon had. Yes, Qui-Gon was always a bit of a rebel, but he always struck me as knowing when the right moment was to be a rebel. I took Obi-Wan's relationship with Anakin as much more of an older brother than a father, especially by the end, regardless of Anakin's protest in Ep 2 that "he's like my father." Anakin never really had a father figure (unless it be the Emperor) and Qui-Gon was, in terms of age at least, much better placed than Obi-Wan to fill that role. I think Qui-Gon would have known much better than Obi-Wan how to manage recklessness and rebellion in Anakin, mainly because Qui-Gon was already predisposed in that direction anyway: takes one to know one, as it were.
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  23. SkywalkerJedi02 Jedi Master

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    Jul 3, 2013
    star 1
    I Agree
  24. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    I believe Luke didn't turn because Palpatine's talent for manipulation had become somewhate heavy-handed by the OT. Every time I watch ROTJ, I have noticed that Palpatine's big mouth prevented Luke from ending up in the abyss. Whatever "warm and accepting environment" that Luke was raised in, he still had (and always will have) the ability to embrace evil like everyone else. His personality or childhood will never prevent this from happening. Only the choices that Luke make.
    Last edited by DRush76, Jul 16, 2013
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  25. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

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    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I know we were supposed to feel suspense about Luke turning to the Dark Side in ROTJ but I never felt any. I felt a lot more suspense over whether Luke was going to survive.

    Maybe it was due to the way the throne room scene was handled, with Palpatine saying his line about 'I am unarmed, strike me down and your journey to the Dark Side will be complete'. Really? He is supposed to consider you "unarmed" when you just ordered your troopers to murder his friends? Why is killing you supposed to be a bad thing?

    ...That was my thought when I first saw the scene at age 11; I haven't really changed my perspective since then. I also would not have considered Luke "evil" if he had killed Vader in the fight, considering that he was in the fight for his life.

    It was an amazing moment when he threw his saber down though.
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