Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by ScorpionJedi, Jul 7, 2013.
The music of the Hobbit was amazing imo.
Ugh. No. Just no.
Tonal incongruity is for headaches. Not curing them; causing them. Darn kids with their crazy rock and roll music... Turn that down!
Both new and established, thank you.
Why is the movie a failure? According to rottentomato 84% of viewers liked it, no mean feat. Personally I even liked it better than lord of the rings because it was funny, lighthearted and didn't take itself so damn serious.
This is not the thread to comment on the overall quality of The Hobbit as a film, BUT I will say that the main way in which its musical score disappointed me, and the mistake that I hope the ST doesn't make, was that the new themes weren't distinctive enough on their own and lacked the vitality of LOTR's leitmotifs, and when Shore did bring back something from the previous trilogy, it didn't make a lick of sense (why play the Nazgul theme when Thorin was charging Azog? Because it sounds cool?)
The new themes in the ST should be distinct and have a life of their own, and when something from the previous films is heard, It should really, really mean something.
I think you are right. Some of the tracks in the LotR soundtrack were really great and memorable, like this Galadriel melody (or however it is called). I can't remember a single piece from the Hobbit, to be honest.
It was my understanding that Shore indeed wrote new material for that sequence, but PJ thought the Nazgul theme worked better and re-tracked the cue- yes, because it was cool. Same thing happened in the PT. GL/Burtt really liked to re-track cues like "Escape from Naboo" in spite of new JW material. I really hope that fate doesn't befall the ST.
It should be scored entirely with early Whitesnake songs.
Whatever John Williams comes up with for the sequel trilogy will become legendary in the Star Wars saga, whatever new or old. That's the way he works.
I would say have both old and new, but more new, something that's just can be just as iconic. Now it's John Williams, he's gonna make brilliant music no matter what.
I like what John Williams did in the PT, as each movie had its own new score (Duel of Fates, Across the Stars, A Hero Falls, etc.) along with a mix of OT music. When you think of a SW movie, one specific song should stick out to distinguish it from the rest.
That's exactly what I was talking about earlier! That piece of music may have been workable, but it just wasn't right to use it so many times, and particularly in the ending sequences of AOTC. The point of a musical score in a climactic series of scenes is to build up the tension, enhance the drama, do whatever it can to buttress the intent of those scenes. Does the music in the end of AOTC honestly do that? It can't, not when it's a patchwork of music that any one of us could clearly spot (no, a general audience would probably not have noticed, but we would have). It took me out of the movie immediately and kept me out for the rest of the picture. The number of times when that ever works in movies is rare, and usually because of some arcane exception that still proves the rule. The climax would have worked in AOTC had Williams either scored, or been allowed to score, the scenes organically as he had with the previous climaxes of other movies in the saga. If he did in fact score something after all, then the filmmakers should have used it. Whoever made the call, it was a bad call.
The musical climaxes of the other five films flowed naturally and were not largely made up of other music from other films in the series. For me, the best case in point, as I've said before, remains the climax of TESB. Practically from the beginning of the Han Solo carbon-freezing scene, and most definitely from Vader's big reveal in the duel right to the Falcon's escape, the music flows organically and perfectly. The music in the Bespin shaft flows into the music on the weather vane, which in turn flows into the chase music, "Hyperspace," which pushes ever onward at a relentless and frantic tempo (you know, "Dah-dah-dah-BA-dah-dah-dah-BA-dah-dah-dah-BA-dah-dah-dah," and all that) that doesn't really let up (save for the occasional musical breaks when Luke and Vader are mind-melding, which actually enhance the tension rather than diminish it) until the Falcon is gone and Vader is left to stew. Now THAT'S a music climax, executed flawlessly.
Or at least it ONCE was, until 1997. The edits in the Special Edition, which insert little shots of Vader leaving Bespin and landing on his command ship (probably the only change in that film that doesn't really work for me), smack you in the face with their sudden interruptions of that relentless tempo (and you can't really call it relentless if you're going to break off from it every two minutes just so we know Vader was able to get a shuttle ride), but it only proves my point about what's wrong with the AOTC music being a herky-jerky patchwork quilt of notes - not a driving force in the drama, which is exactly what it's SUPPOSED to be. You can't have the score be a driving force in the drama if you're constantly changing the emotional tone of the score by linking together bits of music that don't fit organically.
(And by the way, while we're on the subject, what was up with them using the Geonosis monsters-in-the-arena music over and over in ROTS? That sucked too, and it was LAZY. Yoda masses troops on Kashyyyk to it, Anakin marches into the Jedi Temple to it - what the hell?!)
Gotta keep the main theme, but other than that, no reason to dredge up old music unless it's about the characters who are still around. So no Vader or Yoda, but maybe Luke and Leia. Han didn't really have a theme track.
John Williams was able to come up with new stuff and mix it with the old all through the original trilogy, then the prequels, no reason to do any different this time around, even if he's not doing the music. The music in the prequels was pretty different, even though it kept a lot of the old themes, so it'd be good to have something similarly new, while staying true to what's been around.
I can put on my headphones, cue up the soundtrack for A New Hope and watch the movie in my mind as I listen. That's what I want. Musical cues that conjure up strong images, not just a lot of dramatic swells and such. John William's best works were undoubtedly the OT (mostly) and parts of the PT. Indiana Jones? Incredible. Close Encounters? Brilliant. And on and on.
And Jurassic Park....
John Williams is by far my favorite composer, probably then Alan Silvestri or Jerry Goldsmith.
Although I like Bernard Herrmann.
The only difference I have with that is that, for me, Goldsmith trumps Silvestri easily. I'm not knocking Silvestri as a composer, or you for liking him, because he really is damned good; I just think that in a conversation about composers who aren't John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith unquestionably deserves seniority. Not necessarily superiority, because that's still a taste thing, but definitely seniority.
I'd also have to say that Grand Moff Jawa makes a stellar point as well: part of what I said about the music needing to flow organically plays (pun intended) into what GMJ says about essentially listening to the film in your mind when you hear the music. You can say that about, at best, five out of a possible six scores for Star Wars films thus far. I just can't say that about AOTC. But we definitely need to be able to say that about the ST scores when we finally hear them.
You're definitely right about Goldsmith, as I am just bias towards Silvestri because I LOVE Back to the Future score, as that is my 2nd favorite movie behind Star Wars.
A mix of the two. Honor the old, add to the story .
Score is a big deal for me in movies, so this will be a pretty sensitive topic for me once 2015 comes around...
I of course would love to hear lots of new themes with the classic melodies threading thru it in parts, like the jedi theme, Emperor's theme perhaps, and then of course we have to have the main theme! that will be a big deal for me if the opening crawl main title music is any different than the original Star Wars opening fanfare. I will have a big issue with it! there's absolutely no reason AT ALL to change that. save the new material for the New themes for new characters, don't change up the old stuff, just for the pure sake of changing it up.
I'm not really that worried that that will happen, but as long as John Williams stays with his normal style for the Star Wars score (for example; not using electric guitars... and not using programmed drum machine etc. etc.) I think it all be fine!!
There's an electric guitar solo on the score for Attack of the Clones during the chase scene. And it's frickin RAD. I for one would like to hear more electric guitar sprinkled in. However I am a lover of heavy metal music so my bias should be clear.
there appears to be consensus that JW should keep it old and new for the movies going forward. But I would also like to hear him do more ambient music, like the Cantina Band.
I sure can't fault you for that one, Carbon. That's another fine instance of a score that supports and intensifies the emotion of the story perfectly. It's not a wall-to-wall score, like some, and for that kind of film, it doesn't need to be; but it's MEMORABLE. That counts for a lot in this conversation: in addition to properly matching and aiding the mood and tone of a film, the music has to be striking enough to be something you can remember afterwards, probably even something you can hum or whistle for some time afterwards. The Back to the Future scores were great examples of that. Just by your mentioning the title, I can instantly recall the building of the music as Marty races the car towards the electric line just as the lightning hits the clock tower (and, as that example demonstrates, the story itself has to merit that kind of catchiness; the story helps the score just as surely as the score helps the story; but that's a whole 'nother thread...).
I thought the main theme (that patterned itself after the dwarves song: Misty Mountains cold) was excellent, and very reminiscent of what we heard in lord of the rings...also the theme during the flight of the Eagles (towards the end of the movie) was just breathtaking IMO!
I know were not supposed to discuss the hobbit here sorry... but I just had to say that little bit!
With all due respect to heavy-metal, (because I myself enjoy some of it as well) I'm pretty sure that's not meant to be a random electric guitar in the score, but rather I believe it's actually the sound that Zam Wessel's speeder makes when she's flying around. if you listen and watch closely, that sound actually moves and changes in Accordance with the movements of Zam's speeder during the Chase...
I actually thought that too originally, until I watched it several more times and noticed that it looks to be the sound of the speeder-similar to that noise that the speeders make in the chase in return of the Jedi. The acceleration noise or whatever.