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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Would you want to see a return of the acrobatic fighting style of the prequels?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Pfcoolio14, Jan 2, 2016.

  1. Shaak Ti

    Shaak Ti Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    yeah, we kinda ssume he has faced luke or at least was trained well as he defeated all other acolytes, but I think that was due to the fact that it seems no one but him even had a saber but luke, and he was gone.
     
  2. KWGerald

    KWGerald Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
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  3. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013


    Going by that then we can speculate as to why JJ doesn't care so much for the ROTJ duel and doesn't much care for TESB one one either save for the end part over the chasm but therefore much be more for the Anakin and Obi-Wan vs Dooku kind of PT duels based on the speed and aggressiveness used in TFA.

    Well JJ's part in this is over so we will see how RJ goes from here. One presumes that in-universe both of them will have to be far better in VIII after their training.
     
  4. Jmacq1

    Jmacq1 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 20, 2005
    I think there's room for a balance point in-between that was already starting to show up in this movie: Duels that have more visual flair than the OT but that are not quite as unnecessarily "showy" as the Prequels got after Episode I (Episode I was about the best balance of the two, largely because of Ray Park's martial arts training and Liam Neeson's pretty extensive theatrical-combat background being good material for Nic Gilliard to work with).

    Though in TFA most of the visual flair came from the environment and the effects it generated as they sliced through trees and branches and caused steam to rise up where sabers met snow (great little touch, there).
     
  5. Kiki-Gonn

    Kiki-Gonn Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 26, 2001
    I think Qui-Gon vs Maul, ROTS Anakin vs Dooku and Luke vs Vader had the best compromise between realism and flash.

    As a martial artist I hate pretty, absolutely useless twirling, jumping and fake technique like we saw in Obi-Wan vs Maul or Anakin. Both of those veered into silly territory at times IMO.

    Oh yeah, just have to mention I did a sword routine with Ray Park on stage here in Dallas after AOTC :)
     
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  6. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 1998
    Major cool points to Kiki-Gonn! Spill the beans; we want all the gory details!
     
  7. Delta RC-1138

    Delta RC-1138 Jedi Padawan

    Registered:
    Sep 7, 2015
    I agree with everything in this post, and to add, I'd like to see fighting that reflects the character. In Episode II, Dooku's fighting style was reserved, calm, and precise, in Anakin's was feisty and emotional, Grievous's fight-style was very mechanical. It didn't hold for everyone, I thought Yoda's fighting style was a bit too acrobatic, but mostly, a character's fighting style reflected on the character. I'd like as the trilogy goes on for the characters to develop their own flavor of lightsaber combat.
     
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  8. Temmy

    Temmy Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2016
    From the POV of someone with 7 years of european sword arts and 5 years of korean sword arts, i would say TFA is closest to realism. Buuuuuuut thats not saying much. An actual sword fight has about 20 seconds of shuffling about, followed by an exchange lasting a few seconds before someone is struck, and often includes grappling and throws.This of course would make for a boring lightsaber fight.

    I noticed attempts at hanging blocks as opposed to the endless side to side crosses you see in the other movies. Now mind you, from my POV they were rather clumsy, but in this case it kind of fits the choreography. They are still addicted to those pressing bladelocks, which is real easy to counter and in real life leads to a quick death of the person pressing in.

    What I was hoping to see, and didn`t see, was the inclusion of some european longsword techniques that utilise the crossguard and the fact that every part of a saber blade cuts. This leads to some really cool looking techniques such as the Zwerchau and double Zwerchau that would look great, especially to an audience used to a more eastern appearing style. Maybe in the next movie.
     
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  9. ScorpionJedi

    ScorpionJedi Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Didn't George Lucas or someone else say that Lightsabers were actually heavier, thus requiring two hands?
     
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  10. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 10

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    Oct 4, 1998
    Temmy, is Zwerchau from Talhoffer? I've never studied the German schools; most of my longsword training is Italian (Fiore).
     
  11. EntechednReformatted

    EntechednReformatted Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2009
    I did enjoy the prequel style, but I think it was really only appropriate for that era of Jedi and I would prefer not to see it return. I think it's emblematic of a time when Jedi were trained very slowly and thoroughly over many years, and constantly engaged each other in training drills. Lightsaber fighting had been refined and formalized into something very "martial artsy," key word "artsy", over the past thousand years of relative peace. So, when a duel does occur, what you get are basically a pair of precognitives using their ability to peer into the future to play a game of Kata Chess. It looks choreographed because, in a sense, it kind of is choreographed ... the choreographer is a thousand of years worth of tradition and form, where the "proper" move and sequence is always known.

    I think you see this very clearly when you watch the Jedi in the background of the Geonosis battle. It's like they are all executing drills. (Obviously I understand the out-of-universe film-making reasons why you get this, but let's see if I can give an in-universe justification.) Of course, live combat tends to make a mockery of rote drills, and the Jedi who were too reliant on what amounted to "one-step sparring" were among the first to fall. Jedi with more real combat experience were able to work in more spontaneity and improvisation, but even they were still largely slaves to form.

    It was Vader who ultimately broke that style. Vader's suit weighed him down and restricted his range of movement enough to make those traditional forms difficult, but that was ok, because he had long since mastered them and outgrown them. Vader had learned to alternate seemingly effortless precision and economy of movement with brute hammering power. Whereas the Jedi of the past were constantly executing the familiar, time-tested maneuvers of a chess opening, Vader just killed people with the power of a wrecking ball applied with the precision of a scalpel. No time for any of that Form II/Form III/Form V nonsense ... Vader was just stronger and smarter and better than you.

    Luke, meanwhile, simply didn't have much opportunity to learn any of those forms in the first place. All he had time for was a crash course in using the Force. His technique was anything but refined. I'm sure Dooku would have been appalled at such crude swordsmanship. What little formal technique he had he sort of picked up through fighting Vader. Simple, direct, no frills swordfighting ... but effective; and this got passed to his students, including Ben.

    TL;DR: I think it's good to have different styles in different eras ... and it makes sense.
     
  12. moreorless12

    moreorless12 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 4, 2016
    If it does I think it should be kept with the Darkside users as a sign of arrogance. That's I think why it worked well with Maul, not only was he effective but you could see cocky as hell which played perfectly into the role.
     
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  13. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jun 10, 2014
    I think there was a obvious ballet and opera effects to the Jedi and Sith technique where their fighting was a religious dance or ceremony as much as practical and to the death. Probably had a lot to also do with the more eastern martial arts that were adopted for the PT.
     
  14. Certain Point of View

    Certain Point of View Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 8, 2015
    No. And, I say that as someone who respects the prequels and never really cared about "realism" in Jedi fights. It just wouldn't make sense. That era is gone.
     
  15. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jun 10, 2014
    I don't think the PT fighting went anywhere, it is a live and well on SW:Rebels.
     
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  16. CrazyOldJedi

    CrazyOldJedi Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2000
    I definitely think that Rey will bridge the gap between PT and OT styles due mainly to having Chloe Bruce as her fight double.
     
  17. Darth Dementor

    Darth Dementor Jedi Master star 2

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    Dec 19, 2015
    It wouldn't bother me.
     
  18. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jun 10, 2014
  19. Ticonderouga

    Ticonderouga Jedi Knight star 1

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    Dec 20, 2015
    The PT duels should be left were they were, while I can and do appreciate them for what they are and what they were trying to accomplish. They reflected the Jedi of the time so were full of formalism, pageantry, energy and decadence; but were lacking in substance. While the ESB and RotJ were all substance, emotion and drama. The TFA duel was brutal, raw, and visceral, it was also visually stunning, and had an understated grace. So going forward I think that the duels should become somewhat more refined, I really hope they don't lose the gritty nature of this one.

    For those who seem to take such pleasure at deriding the duel in ANH, all I can say is shame, shame. First without that duel NONE of the rest would ever have occurred. Secondly, anyone who didn't see that in the theater prior to 1980 (I know there are few other old farts around who remember this) you can't imagine the impact that particular duel had. I mean, no one had ever seen anything remotely like it. Every time I see it I instantly become the 4 year old boy watching it for the first time in 1977. In a very real sense that duel MADE Star Wars the epic franchise that it is today. Everything other epic moment from ANH could be seen, in one form or another in any number of movies and TV shows. But that laser sword fight was like nothing else, before or since (at least outside of Star Wars). So while it may not have quite the same panache and gloss that the later ones did, you should at least be able to appreciate how much that scene did, after all without that one none of the others would ever have occured.
     
  20. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    Do I want them to be like the PT duels, no. Would I be ok with them being more stylized/acrobatic, sure if they're done well. There have been movies with those types of fight scenes that I've real enjoyed (The Mask of Zorro and The Raid films comes to mind right away). So it can be done, and it could, if done well, show a progression of both Rey and Kylo's training arcs.

    I did think to myself when watching Kylo that perhaps Luke and Snoke taught him quite a bit about The Force (hence his supped up abilities), but perhaps not so much about lightsaber combat, because he seems rather raw with it even before the climax. Also, he probably has little experience with actual dueling.
     
  21. BobaBacca

    BobaBacca Jedi Knight star 4

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    Nov 6, 2015
    What is the "acrobatic style of the PT duels" exactly? Yoda was the only character who I would describe as fighting with an acrobatic style. He needed to because of his size. Luke was doing flips just as much as the human characters of the PT. His whole training routine on Dagobah was a crash course in acrobatics. Makes sense because Yoda was the Jedi Master training Luke. Should have that Black Sabbath song playing in Yoda's classes :p
     
  22. Temmy

    Temmy Jedi Youngling

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    Jan 3, 2016
    One of the signature master strikes from Liechtenauer and anyone who practiced his lineage.

     
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  23. Daharis

    Daharis Jedi Youngling

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    Dec 29, 2015
    I think the heavily-choreographed, flippy dippy doo fighting of the prequels would feel out of place in this new universe. Things are gritty here, and every action means something. In that lightsaber fight, you felt every hit. It was intense and savage. The prequel styles (minus DotF) left you just kinda staring at the screen, wondering what is going on, because you couldn't relate to it, because humans don't move like that.

    Han's purposefully throwing people at a monster so he can get away, millions/billions of people are destroyed by a laser cannon, they throw a lady into a garbage compactor to die a horrible death, people, not clones but people, are getting shot and our heroes feel it when they kill and when they fight. This Star Wars is just not the prequel Star Wars. Actions MEAN something here. You can't just hurl yourself into oncoming speeder traffic hundreds of miles in the air in order to catch a bounty hunter.

    Likewise, you can't be spinning around your opponent and moving unnecessarily. People move like human beings and get tired in this universe. They are out to kill each other and not get killed themselves. There is no time for excess flourishing, posturing and showboating.

    That is my take on the differences between the two series. I'm not saying you're, whatever, for liking the prequel style fighting. I'm just saying that those movies have a very different "feel" from the new and old movies.
     
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  24. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    The entire Anakin/Obi Wan duel on Mustafar was like that as well, to an absurd degree after awhile. Which was a shame since it happens in a cool-looking and actually thematically-appropriate setting and it was the closest that I ever got to being emotionally invested in a PT duel. Shot yourself in the foot there George.
     
  25. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    I think that the fast pace of the two duels in TFA was sufficient. It wasn't as acrobatic as those we saw in the prequels. I liked them just fine. I half-expected Kylo Ren to use the Force to leap up to where Rey and Finn were standing when the explosions began, but I presume he ran out there. I guess that Abrams and Co. didn't want to show anything too fantastic, and as such, they wanted the Force-wielders to do pretty much what Luke and Vader were doing in ROTJ.