Wrestlemania 21

Discussion in 'Archive: The Amphitheatre' started by LordRevan19, Apr 1, 2005.

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  1. DVader316 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2000
    star 7
    Exactly. I agree with Drew 100%. Its all about workrate, not how many times the office hands you a paper championship because you are the office in essence since youre married to Vince's daughter. Its obvious that theyre trying to push HHH as the next Ric Flair but it aint gonna happen. The fans will never look at him that way, even if Flair himself seems to endorse it.
  2. FORCEOF1 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2004
    star 1
    All valid points, and I'm the biggest HBK fan I know so I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one. I just see Hunter as something more than you do, and just as strong as the other two.

    I never liked Bret Hart at all. I guess I just don't like faces very much. They're boring for the most part, though HBK's in ring performances are never boring.

    I've never seen a wrestling crowd have more emotion than they did the night that HHH returned from his injury. The last 20 minutes of RAW was nothing but pure affection pouring over him. It was awesome. And a month later, he turned heel again and the boos rained down once more, (boos like that are reserved for HHH and Vince alone by the way).

    I respect that you guys don't like HHH, you're not supposed to and many people don't, but as he's said many times, you don't have to be liked as long as you're respected. I don't know of anyone who doesn't respect him.

    FORCEOF1
  3. Drew_Atreides Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2002
    star 5
    ..ha, i used to work with a guy who was a huge HHH mark..

    See, the problem with the heat that Hunter gets is that it's not just Heel heat... Alot of it (coming from most of the smarks) is legit heat, ya know? Alot of people truly hate the guy.

    HBK has never gotten legit heat outside of Montreal ( :p ), and i don't think Flair has received legit heat from anyone other then Mick Foley at any time in his LIFE (guy is just to damned entertaining)..

    I respect Hunter because, quite honestly, i do believe it's true when he says he lives and breathes the business. That's one leg he has up on someone like the Rock (who, the further he distances himself from wrasslin', the less i respect the guy).

    I just think that Hunter, and Vince, have overestimated the general public's 'respect of' and ability to care for, Triple H.
  4. DVader316 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2000
    star 7
    Agreed. For whatever reason theyre under the illusion that all we want is HHH shoved down our throats at every turn, as well as having him pretty much burying everyone he feuds with and never going more than a month or two without his fake belt. Once Raw became The HHH Show I just gave up completely and stopped watching.
  5. Qonas Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 12, 2003
    star 4
    FORCEOF1, I was getting all set to defend ya but then you said you don't like Bret Hart. Ouch. Way to alienate other pro-HHHers. :p

    So DVader, what do you want the WWE to do? Because as much as 'shoving HHH down our throats' may not be what fans want, neither will fans BUY HHH being an evil villain in a feud, only to lose. Every time. To 'set up new superstars'. Why? Four icons came out of the Attitude Era: Stone Cold, The Rock, Mick Foley, and HHH. Can you imagine if a heel Rock or Stone Cold was on Smackdown right now? You have to call it, well, "The Stone Cold or Rock Show". Those four performers are head and shoulders above the rest, bar none. Honestly they should be dominating until someone who can perform as well as them finally shows up, and has the necessary fan support. Jericho could've done this, but the writers blew it. Benoit should've done it, but the E's manlove for Orton blew it. Batista may be able to, if he can up the workrate. Kurt Angle could have, would have, and should have done it but he's injury plagued. Shelton Benjamin, Charlie Haas, Edge, and Christian are the ones left who could possibly turn into huge superstars but the push isn't there and neither is the fans, yet.

    So, where is the belt supposed to revolve except around HHH? What're the alternatives?

    EDIT: I also never knew the NWA/WCW championship was a 'fake' one. Nice touch.
  6. Darth_Jericho Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2003
    star 1
    But the WWE World Heavyweight Championship is NOT the NWA/WCW Heavyweight Belt. Yes, it is technically a replica, but when have you once heard it's history mentioned before it was HANDED(easily the WORST way to crown a champion, even if he did have a match with Flair later on that evening) to Triple H. The WWE website acknowledges Trips as the first champion. Why? Because he is the first person to hold THAT belt. Given the treatment of guys like Booker T(don't even try to rationalize his loss to Triple H at Wrestlemania 19) and any other former-WCW wrestler(most were released because (surprise!) the writers couldn't find anything for them to do), like Sean O-Haire, you get the feeling that Vince isn't over the Wars. He's also not over Triple H. But that's another topic all together.
  7. Drew_Atreides Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2002
    star 5
    you get the feeling that Vince isn't over the Wars.

    EXACTLY. I mean, i can understand Vince wanting to be loyal to those workers who stayed with him during the tough times, but there's also gotta be an understanding of the talent and ability which a wrestler possesses, and how far that should take him in the grand scheme of the title picture.

    I mean, HONESTLY, what in the heck is BRADSHAW doing with a TITLE? And WHY DID HE HOLD IT FOR SO LONG?

    I know Vince has a soft-spot for the guy, but he has A) no talent and B) is a complete dolt of a jerk.

    So, where is the belt supposed to revolve except around HHH? What're the alternatives?

    Well, i think you nailed it on the head when you said the WWE had pretty much botched it with the likes of Jericho and Benoit as being viable alternatives..
    I guess the problem is, as fans, we can SEE the potential of these guys.. See their talents, and KNOW that if they were handled properly, they could easily be looked at on the same level as HHH..

    So i suppose you could say that the fans and their frustration with HHH in particular can actually be viewed as, in general, an outlet for our frustration with the product as a whole..




  8. Darth_Jericho Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2003
    star 1
    JBL has come an extremely long way as champion. I hated it at first, but he grew on me. He should've been built up first, and while that was going on, you know who could've taken his place as champ or in the Eddie feud? Booker T, freshly turned heel. He was easily the most hated heel on Smackdown after he was traded there. He had the confrontations with the locker-room, namely Eddie G., that built his heat. But what happened? Him, Kenzo, and Renee Dupree were all jobbed out to John Cena. The WWE blew it there.

    And it was asked who could've replaced Triple H. For starters, Booker T. Even Kane could've, until the whole necrophiliac/murderer thing. Chris Jericho would've been a hell of a replacement, but if you notice he never got a chance at the main event with Triple H on Raw. He never even got his rematch for the Undisputed Championship(notice how that was never mentioned, but the day after Triple H loses the title, he gives the same speech about a rematch that he gave after Wrestlemania 20). Who else? Rob Van Dam if properly built up and booked. His popularity was at a ridiculous high when he feuded with Triple H. But what happened? Like the previous two names, he was buried. If Big Show was booked correctly on Raw, like he was when he jumped to Smackdown, he could've been champion. Chris Benoit proved to have the ability to get it done as champion. Well, until they felt the need to book the World Champ second to Triple H/Shawn Michaels. But if you notice, these are mostly guys who were already well-known and built up. What new guys have been elevated to the main event while Triple H has been champion on Raw? I mean, that is the job of the top guy in the company, the man who lives and loves the business, isn't it? Randy Orton was built up, and then quickly brought down. Batista has been built up. Those are the only two I can actually think of. So here's what I'm going to do: I'm going to make a list of all of Triple H's PPV opponents since 2002, who challenged for the belt.

    1. Unforgiven-Rob Van Dam-I discussed him above. I still believe that Rob could've been champion. Yea, he could've lost this match but have the feud continue. It would give the fans a face to rally behind so when he finally won, it'd be big.

    2. No Mercy-Kane-His popularity was strong. Not only was he the Intercontinental Champion, but he was also coming off a monster win in TLC 4. He single-handedly beat 3 other teams, and was then ruined with the Katie Vick angle.

    3. Survivor Series-Elimination Chamber-Shawn Michaels walked away as Champ, ending an amazing comeback. I can't complain about how this worked out. No one believed Shawn would wrestle again, but at SummerSlam he proved everyone wrong, and then proceeded to become Champion again.

    4. Armageddon-Shawn Michaels-Now why couldn't Shawn have held it for over a month? I can't think of a real reason why it wasn't kept on him for at least another month.

    5. and 6. Royal Rumble and No Way Out-Scott Steiner-No problems here. Steiner looked pretty bad in these matches and I agree with keeping the belt on Triple H.

    7. Wrestlemania 19-Booker T-The final blow to Booker T's career. He really hasn't recovered from this. Since this loss, he has been reduced to a midcarder at best. Given the fact that he not only won a mini-Rumble, but also defeated the Rock one-on-one(someone who doesnt have a problem helping build new stars). But of course, no one can beat the monster that is Triple H.

    8. Judgment Day-Kevin Nash-No, Nash isn't the wrestler he was(not that it's saying much), but he would've been a nice change. He was semi-over, and if they actually gave him mic time, and let him be himself, he would've gotten over. That was never given to him.

    9. Bad Blood-Nash-Still nothing for Nash. Pretty much the same as above.

    10. SummerSlam-Elimination Chamber-How do you destroy the legend of Goldberg? Put him in the ring with Triple H. I'm not a Goldberg fan, but did Triple H really need this win? No he didn't. Goldberg was getting pretty
  9. FORCEOF1 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2004
    star 1
    Qonas- Thanks for the support and we'll have to agree to disagree about the Hitman. I have to with my friend Chris too. I would that man wears black and pink spandex underoos.

    Let me just say that this is by far and away the most intelligent, respectful, and educated discussion I've had about wrestling anywhere on the internet. Thank God for The Amphitheatre.

    D-Jericho- I agree with most of your observations, especially that RVD deserved a run as champ. I have to disagree with your thoughts on Kane as champion, though.

    The WWE is a publicly owned company and the Champions are right there next to Vince as the company's poster boys and girls. The role of the champ is almost as much about public appearances and interviews as it is about in ring activity. It's this part of the job that guys like HHH, Rock, Hogan, and HBK do very well. Even though HHH's in ring persona is the ultimate a-hole, he comes off as an intelligent, articulate and engaging personality. Plus he looks like a wrestler, strong without being freakishly big and he smiles all the time. And all four of the above mentioned smile alot when being interviewed. They are very professional and don't overstep the boundaries Vince has set for them. (on a side note, it's also the reason why Trish Stratus has held the women's belt something like 90% of the days since she first won it)

    I mean, can you imagine Kane on the Tonight Show? It would be a joke. Especially back then when it was masked Kane, he would have had to grunt his way through the interview. A nightmare. Is he a strong wrestler and a hard consistant worker who deserves to hold the belt, yes I think so, but it's a business.

    There's a balancing act that has to happen when you're promoting to the general non-viewing public between persona and your actual person. Jesse Ventura and Hulk Hogan have this down. You can tell when they're being their wrestling selves and their real selves and people can like both of them. This is where Benoit and Jericho struggled as champ. Benoit because he seems like the real deal wrestler. What you see is what you get and I love that, but my wife doesn't. She thinks he's gross.

    When Jericho was the champ, I saw him interviewed building up to Wrestlemania (I think) on Entertainment Tonight or Access Hollywood or HardCopy or something and it was the most frustrating interview for the reporter. The reporter was trying to get something out of him and he was so standoffish. He kept calling the guy, "jerky" which I found funny but was annoying to everyone else that was watching the show with me. I think Jericho's great, but he's a rockstar and as such he flips the bird to convention. Simultaneously why I like him and why he's not been champ again.

    Man...I wish Kurt Angle could stay healthy.

    FORCEOF1
  10. DVader316 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2000
    star 7
    Kurt's been healthy for a while now, no ? When was the last time he was out with an injury relating to his neck ? I havent watched in close to a year so I honestly dont know.
  11. Drew_Atreides Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2002
    star 5
    ..i'm as big an Angel mark as there is (he's easily my favourite wrestler of the past 5 years), but here you've got another case of Vince forcing a worker into trying to do a character that they're just not capable of...

    Angle is at his best as the dorky, goofy heel..He just does not (imo) do the whole intense, bad-ass Captain America thing very well.. I mean, i suppose pulling off being a Face, especially in the modern era of wrestling, is difficult for pretty much ANYONE, but Kurt REALLY seems to struggle with it..

  12. LORDeron_MAULer Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2003
    star 4
    i thoguht he was pretty good during ther Invasion period, but after that he seemed meant for a heel. its qutie an acomplishment to get the fans to chant "you suck" tio your entrance music...


    maybe now if he let his hair grow
  13. FORCEOF1 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2004
    star 1
    Just got finished watching RAW and I loved seeing HHH Pedigree Batista. So what that it took three other guys to help, but Batista had already overcome the odds to get the win over Captain Charisma (heh heh heh).

    Plus, I don't know if any of you guys saw it, but HBK jobbed a couple weeks ago to Davari, Mohammed Hassan's manager. I did not like that at all.

    FORCEOF1

    P.S.- The Masterpiece has got to go.
  14. Angela_Russell Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2004
    star 4
    Does Victoria have amnesia??? Because I heard she was under the name Yoko Wong in Japan, and during her recent visit to Australia and the UK she was under the name of Hillary Chambers.

    [image=http://www.wwe.com/superstars/raw/victoria/photos/images/03.jpg]

    Ciao!
  15. Dinner_Squadron Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 16, 2004
    star 2
    "Kurt's been healthy for a while now, no ? When was the last time he was out with an injury relating to his neck ? I havent watched in close to a year so I honestly dont know. "

    It's been quite awhile, yes, but that's partially because he stopped doing as many competitive matches on TV. I'm quite thankful for that. A year of watching him squash jobbers is better then him risking paralisis.

    Sadly, I've heard he still is getting numbness in his extremities after matches.
  16. DVader316 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2000
    star 7
    The guy should just retire already before he ends up spending the rest of his life in a wheelchair like so many others before him.
  17. Drew_Atreides Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2002
    star 5
    ...yeah, i wish Kurt would just retire already, as well..

    Still, you've got to respect the man for putting so much into the business, ya know what i mean?

    One of the major reasons he's my favourite wrassler.
  18. BauconBatista Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2004
    star 4
    The Wrestlemania 21 buyrate has been announced.

    I am speechless :eek:
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