Writing advice from one Mr. Orson Scott Card :: Now Discussing- Stories with Soul

This is such a wonderful treasure but I didn't feel it right to keep it to myself. I know several writers here who are, like myself, fond of Orson Scott Card's work (especially the Ender's Game series).

Well, a few years ago I discovered his official site. I used to post in the workshop, but had forgotten about the site for a while until I brought it up as a resource to a fellow author.

Now that I'm looking back through it, Card has some really wonderful and useful stuff here. He takes questions, gives insightful answers, holds free workshops, etc. I have so far found a lot of interesting ideas there.

This would certainly be a good resource for some of the rest of you as well, so I thought I'd share it . But I also thought perhaps we could discuss some of Card's ideas, particularly his 'lessons'/Q&A.

I personally find Card to be an amazing author of science fiction with real depth of characters. To me, that's what Star Wars is, so I think his ideas might be quite helpful to our community.

Would anyone else be interesting in discussing some of these questions/lessons?

-sj loves kevin spacey

 

Yup. Orson teaches Creative Writing at SVU, where my sister goes. I've also met him when he comes for book signings, since he went to my uni. And I love his writing.

 

Me too! That's awesome that you've had a chance to meet him. He's a wonderful author. I have his book on writing Sci-Fi and Fantasy, and it's really good. He is great at spelling out advice for fellow writers.

Ok, I'm picking a lesson kind of randomly...

Chapter Length

Thoughts?


-sj loves kevin spacey

 

Chapter length is completely arbitrary. You can divide chapters however you want.

Robert Parker, for instance, uses very short chapters in his Spenser novels. Other writers have only five or six chapters in an entire novel.

I feel like it's good that he doesn't say "Aim for this length." Chapters are natural breaks in the flow of plot and dialogue.

Some writers divide chapters after climactic scenes; others try to end them on cliffhangers or stunning revelations, so that the reader must turn the page and keep going.

And the fanfic writers NEVER do this.

Some writers (and now I'm speaking of myself) tend to begin a novel with short chapters, to create a fast-moving rhythm as the reader is just getting engaged in the story. Later chapters are much longer, on the presumption that the reader who gets this far is already interested and willing to read through much longer movements.

I agree with this because I feel like having tidbits is like a trailer, it gets your pace up and lets you feel like you can progress to the next chapter. It also compartmentalizes your characterizations and/or your events/locations.

 

DarthIshtar: Lemme get this straight: you've MET Card? Hart's Hope Card?

 

I really liked the idea of having shorter chapters at the beginning. I didn't even notice it before, but now that I'm re-reading Ender's Game with this knowledge, I can see it. Good idea, though... short posts at first... wait until you've got them hooked and they can't escape to post long things

I have a lot of trouble starting stories. And starting chapters, really. I wonder- if you don't have a hook, the 'plot' of the story starting in the very first few pages, is that bad? I have this problem with a story I'm working on now. The plot is secondary in importance to the character stories, but it seems like I'm not going to get to the plot for a bit...

-sj loves kevin spacey

 

Yes, I've met him. And I'll be visiting my sister who goes to that college, so maybe I'll just sit in on a class...

Anyway, the beginnings are often the hardest for me, I agree. Most of my stories until late 2001 started the same way: (character name) (mundane verb) in (horrible place).

 

Oy. I still have that problem with every chapter. I don't think any of them start well. All my SotC episodes start with "Anakin Skywalker", but at least that's for a reason... My older fics, though, have such stupid openings:

The bridge of the Plague was tense. (tense as in ?)

"Rogue Squadron, this is Solo. Requesting backup. Wedge, get down here! We're getting swamped by Imps!" Han shouted through the commlink.

Leia Organa squinted at the data pad screen in front of her.

Han Solo sat reclined in a large, plush couch in his living room. ()

The onyx boots snapped against the cold floor as the towering figure strode briskly through the pallid corridors of the Death Star. (ok, I think this is the only one I like reasonably well.)


-sj loves kevin spacey

 

I went through an exciting beginnings phase.

"Watch your back!" (Two Jedi, a Senator, and her aide playing paintball in a story that had people cussing freeform at the end)

He thrived on pain (Not bad for Palpy's little interior monologue, but since he's barely mentioned for the rest of the story, not so much.)

Princess Leia Organa lay prone on the slab of metal that passed for a bed in Imperial detention centers, trying to summon her strength. (See aforementioned beginning formula)

A wind to shake the stars gusted through the swamps of Dagobah. (Blame the Original Radio Dramas for this piece of crap of a first sentence)

"I swear, it was the heat of the moment!" (I actually liked this one for "She Kissed My Wookie")

We regret to inform you... (Not what you want to read at the beginning of a romancefic sequel to the fic where everyone got married)

 

First of all, I think Orson Scott Card has great writing advice--I've read his book on Fantasy and SF writing about 9 million times. I like the idea of starting of with short chapters and then lengthening them, too. I'll have to see if that works in my stories.

He had some really nice advice about opening lines, too--he recommended opening with something tense or slightly puzzling, that demanded a resolution. The reader, of course, has to keep reading in order to get to that resolution.

I was going to say that I always keep that advice in mind when I start a new story--which is true--but then I looked at some of the first lines I've actually written.



JFWIW, here is a list of the good, the bad, and the ugly, with fandom notations (SW = Star Wars, TXF = The X-Files):

Top six first lines that do not suck (IMO):

6) Fox Mulder got to spend his twenty-eighth birthday in a cinderblock room in the Milan Federal Prison. (TXF)

5) The first question Scully had about the South Road Ghost was whether to classify it as a revenge or reenactment haunting. (TXF)

4) There is nothing in the world so dispicable as a virtuous man. (TXF)

3) Although you don?t know it, you walk over the site of your grave every day. (SW)

2) It was a beautiful day for a funeral. (TXF)

1) It liked graveyards. (TXF)


It would appear that I like short, declarative first lines that appear impossible or contradictory in some way--and it's better if they're ominous. Ominous is always good. It also appears that I can't start off Star Wars fics to save my life.

Nine first lines that, frankly, suck:

9) "He's done *what?*" demanded the Well-Manicured Man. (TXF) Who cares? And the character name is awful, even though that's what he was really called.

8) All was quiet in the Anghara spirit country. (SW) Great. Call me when something happens.

7) I've spent most of the morning throwing things out -- old clothes, old magazines, boxes filled with news clippings and static-filled audio tapes. (TXF) Ooh, ooh! Did you throw out pens without ink and those flimsy coat hangers you get from the dry cleaner's, too?!

6) "How do you like your new medication, Thomas?" asked Dr. Lily. (TXF) "We don't give a damn," said the audience.

5) Twelve-year old Maggie lay in bed next to her cousin Frances, watching the lacy bedroom curtains swing in the breeze. (TXF) Would Mama and Papa allow them to set up their lemonade stand on the street corner tomorrow? Oh, would they?!

4) On the whole, the victory celebration went well. (SW) Thank you for telling me that. Now please go away and never speak to me again.

3) Dr. Janusek took a few moments to flip through her next client's file. (TXF) Oh, watch out, Dr. Janusek, watch out! Don't flip too fast--you'll get a paper cut! Ahhhhhhhh!!!!!

2) Lloyd Eversole had a lot of things to think about as he parked his milk truck alongside Highway 95. (TXF) Like how he wished he could be in an interesting story instead of this one.

1) Mulder?s phone was ringing. No commentary required. Worst. First line. Ever.

It appears that I don't like dialogue in first lines, I don't like long first lines, and I don't like first lines that introduce a scene in which nothing tense or ominous is happening. Not rocket science to figure those guidelines out, but it's good to look at these things now and again.

 

Yes, but the first line of The First Four Days fit Obi's way of being perfectly. He wouldn't be witty or sarcastic in his grief, just go "On the whole, the celebration went well."

 

Yeah, I can see your issues with some of those, but really, I have no room to judge. I do kind of think the one for the First Four Days, however, is better in context. But at least we agree that the beginning of 'Future Imperfect' is really cool

I freely admit that I am terrible at opening lines. I really love some of my closing lines, but my openings... uhg...

Well, for one thing, every episode of SotC starts with 'Anakin Skywalker', which has it's purpose; other than that, these opening sentences are frightfully dull.

1) Anakin Skywalker was the boy's name.
(Meant to ironically convey to Obi-Wan what every SW fan knows... ended up just being boring and stupid.)

2) Anakin Skywalker fidgeted in his seat as the shuttle started its landing cycle.
(Meant to have a nervous Anakin from the beginning. Has a boring Anakin from the beginning.)

3) Anakin Skywalker was somewhere in this room.
(Meant to ... who cares, really. It just makes me look stupid )


So, on the contrary...

Great, Famous Opening Lines

"Many years later, as he faced the firing squad, Colonel Aureliano Buendia was to remember that distant afternoon when his father took him to discover ice."
- One Hundred Years of Solitude by Gabriel Garcia Marquez
(No one beats Garcia Marquez for truly baffling first lines. Or for truly baffling wonders of novels that follow.)


"On the day they were going to kill him, Santiago Nasar got up at five-thirty in the morning to wait for the boat the bishop was coming on."
- Chronicle of a Death Foretold by Gabriel Garcia Marquez
(You see what I mean?)


"It was a pleasure to burn."
- Farenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury
(Everyone's a bit of a pyro. Hook, line, sinker.)


"All children, except one, grow up."
- Peter Pan by J.M. Barrie
(Come on, who doesn't want to hear this story? And it's worth it, since it's one of the best stories ever, IMHO.)


"If you really want to hear about it, the first thing you'll probably want to know is where I was born, and what my lousy childhood was like, and how my parents were occupied and all before they had me, and all that David Copperfield kind of crap, but I don't feel like going into it, if you want to know the truth. "
- Catcher in the Rye by J.D. Sallinger
(We all immediately get a taste of who Holden is, even before we know who Holden is )


"It was love at first sight.
The first time Yossarian saw the chaplain he fell madly in love with him."
- Catch 22 by Joseph Heller
(Talk about a splendid use of a cliché line. I may be biased because it's one of my favourite books, but still)


"Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy lies a small unregarded yellow sun."
- The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams
(I love how this one makes you think, 'I wonder where that is? This place sounds dull... wait! Isn't this *our* sun?!')

-sj loves kevin spacey

 

I love Marquez! Cien Anos de Soledad was fantastic.

"April is the cruellest month." (T.S. Eliot's The Wasteland)
My favorite Star wars beginning: "You're good, Corran, but you're no Luke Skywalker." (X-Wing: Rogue Squadron)

 

I've always liked these:

"TRUE! --nervous--very, very dreadfully nervous I had been and am; but why will you say that I am mad?"
(From "The Tell-Tale Heart" by Edgar Allen Poe)

"It was in October of 1987 that I first saw the devil on the streets of Detroit."
(Approximated beginning of a book on Devil's Night, the title of which I can't recall)

"124 was spiteful, full of a baby's venom."
(from "Beloved," by Toni Morrison)

"All happy families are alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way."
("Anna Karenina" by Leo Tolstoy)

"Listen: Billy Pilgrim has become unstuck in time."
("Slaughterhouse Five" by Kurt Vonnegut)

And let us not forget the early (although not opening) lines of James Khan's immortal ROTJ novelization:

"These stars marked the moments of the universe. There were aging orange embers, blue dwarfs, twin yellow giants. There were collapsing neutron stars, and angry supernovae that hissed into the icy emptiness. There were borning stars, breathing stars, pulsing stars, and dying stars. There was the Death Star."

 

Ooo, that's some really good advice from that author. Thanks for sharing it, solojones!

I tend to think that opening lines tend to either be good or really bad. The ones I seem to tend to write never turn out too memorable, they're just another line in the story.

And I agree, the opening line from Tell-Tale Heart is rather memorable.

(Psst, ophelia, I love you signature. )

~Jenn

 

Don't you just *have* to love Poe? I mean, he's so insane...ly wonderful.

You know who was really good at first lines? Shakespeare. Not novels, but oh well. It's really unfair to compare ff to Shakespeare, though

I'm glad you liked the article, Targeter. Stick around for more. There's a lot of good advice from Card to be had through his lessons. I have no idea what topic should randomly be discussed next, though

Now we've gotten off the topic of Chapter Length, but uh... not too much to say there, really. I think posting stories here can have advantages and disadvantages for chapters. It does give writers a way to practice those cliffhanger endings However, some people feel pressured to make every single post a 'chapter'. I don't really know where my 'chapters' are. I wish I had that more organised, but the way we post here, it doesn't really matter. What matters is post length, I guess.

-sj loves kevin spacey

 

Hmm, well I used to make every post a chapter, but I ended up starting soemthign new with my current fic where I post a chapter over a series of longer posts. I think it works pretty well and I still get my wonderful little cliffies in.

I was reading this book called Pawn of Prophecy last night and I noticed that the chapters start out short and then get longer like Card said he did. Very interesting tactic there, and defintely one that works.

~Jenn

 

My chapters tend to differ slightly in length, but generally stay around 5 - 6 pages long. I prefer my posts to be longer, so I make each one a chapter. Occasionally, one chapter will end up really long, so I split it into two, but that's pretty rare.

Jes

 

I don't do chapters, just scenelets. I get the action going where I want it to and then afterwards I decide what to post when.

 

It really does depend on what I'm writing. I've found that I've been turning towards dividing my fiction into parts - sort of like what Sean Williams and Shane Dix did on the Force Heretic books.

I used to write in chapters - but I think I got a little carried away with coming up with chapter names, if you know what I mean.

 

And solojones, I have one to add to your collection of Great, Famous Opening Lines

"In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit."
----- J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit

Funnily, I've had that one memorized since I was eight.

 

Oy, not really. I'm bad enough at titles, *why* would I give chapters names? I haven't done that for any of my stories since 3rd grade

-sj loves kevin spacey

 

Because chapter names can be lovely fun.

I'm dead serious.

 

I gave up on chapter names because I was TERRIBLE at them. I can barely name my stories. McEwok helped me name my last one. *sigh*

 

*sigh* I give up. I surrender to those who hate making chapter names.

That doesn't mean that I still don't like naming my chapters!