X-Men 3 Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Archive: The Amphitheatre' started by THE_MISSING_TRIPLET, May 27, 2003.

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  1. Leonard_Shelby Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 6
    I enjoyed this movie immensely...warts and all. Was it as good as the first two? I need to see it again before I can properly gauge where I place it within the trilogy...but I thought it was awesome. Some big-time emotional moments in this film.

    And to say that this is the last "X" film is ludicrous. They wouldn't add the endings with Magneto and Xavier if they truly planned to completely end it. Couple that with the fact that this installment is breaking box office records, and "X4" will most definitely happen. I hope that Singer will come back for that installment...but that's just wishful thinking.
  2. Armenian_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2003
    star 7
    I just watched it again. It was even better the second time. I love this movie.
  3. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 10
    >>I hope that Singer will come back for that installment...but that's just wishful thinking.<<

    Yeah, my wish is that perhaps, since the Phoenix storyline deals with death and resurrection so heavily, if Singer could be persuaded to return, he could integrate X3's events as a prelude to his original plans for the Phoenix somehow- I mean, we saw (barely) the Phoenix force's firebird at the end of X2- it was the cliffhanger of the movie; and it just feels wrong to tease us like that and not show it in the sequel, not to mention a fairly major inconsistancy in the series.

    Then again, I'd just settle for Ratner being allowed to go back and film the "missing" 30 minutes of X3 that prevents it from being a great film like it's predecessor. Give me a reason to buy X3.5 ;)
  4. Gobi-1 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Dec 22, 2002
    star 5
    Saw it a second time myself and I agree.
  5. Beowulf Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 1999
    star 5
    This movie was like movie-theater popcorn. It tasted good, but it sure as hell didn't fulfill my appetite. X2 was by far the best movie in this series, with a perfect blend of action, drama, characterization, and so on and so forth. X3 felt rushed, hardly any time was spent on characterization, and it was choppy. X3 is a good summer flick, but when it comes to comic-book adaptations and follow-ups to great movies, this is sub-par at best.

    But The Beast was great. Great casting too.
  6. KissMeImARebel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2003
    star 4
    Completely agree: you nailed the magic of X2.

    I saw X3 for my second time...While I enjoyed it a bit more, I still maintain this was a mediocre film. Some nice moments, but overall a suprisingly empty film without meaning, and characters without motivations.

    I may be biased because I read the comic, but I'm no rabid X-Men fan. All I wanted was something in the spirit of the source material - sadly, I feel that was missing.

    Beast and Kitty were cool though.
  7. Tyranus_the_Hutt Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2004
    star 4
    Some of you are thinking way, waaaaaaaaay too hard about this movie.

    For me, abstract criticism is but a manner in which to give shape to my perceptions ? both immediate and otherwise ? of a given artistic property, which is in this case a movie. Since my frequently reiterated conceit is that the merit of a film cannot be judged in absolute terms, but relative ones, it is important to approach a picture such as "X-Men: The Last Stand" with an open mind; you can?t scrutinize this sort of film with precisely the same sort of critical apparatus that you would apply to, say, a more serious art film ? the disparate nature of stylization in each of the respective entities attracts very specific forms of criticism that must have some cogent value in relation to the pictures they are being used to assess.

    It was a blast.

    "X-Men: The Last Stand" was, to my mind, a fitfully engaging but ultimately vacuous experience; the cumulative effect of this film is not entirely unlike the closing of one?s hand on air ? which is to say that it lacks substance and dimension. That is not to definitively imply that all pictures must be deep or insightful to function as entertainment ? indeed, I can imagine a film with the same cast and crew making a considerably more entertaining picture with a plot no less preposterous or undisciplined than the one employed in "X-3." I recognize that films of this nature require a suspension of disbelief, and thus do not attend them with the preconceived notion that they will strictly adhere to matters such as pragmatism and plausibility. The bottom line with a film like this is whether or not it gets the job done; my assertion, which I?ve already outlined in a certain amount of detail, is that it doesn?t (for me at least). That is not to say that I think the film is entirely unsuccessful ? it has its moments of whimsy, but too often the film gets in its own way ? too many characters, too much plot - making it difficult for the viewer to become genuinely immersed in the proceedings.

    While you could do worse in terms of escapist summer fare, this particular movie isn?t as effective as either of its predecessors.

    Learn to simply have fun with a movie every now and then.

    Hey, I enjoyed "Mission: Impossible III" (despite some reservations), and I?m also one of the five or so people that liked "The Da Vinci Code" 8-}, a film that might actually be more preposterous than "X-Men: The Last Stand."

    And to say that this is the last "X" film is ludicrous.

    The franchise is far too profitable for 20th Century Fox to simply abandon; the studio has already suggested that we may get branching films devoted exclusively to popular characters such as Wolverine and Magneto. Given the amount of difficulty I had keeping track of all of the characters in "X-Men: The Last Stand," I think that 'addition by subtraction' might in fact be the right approach if there are going to be further installments in this series.

    I hope that Singer will come back for that installment...but that's just wishful thinking.

    Singer?s upcoming version of "Superman" is reported to clock in at a whopping two-and-a-half hours, which is just the sort of expansive running time "X-3" needed to impart its large assortment of characters with more nuance and depth.

    This movie was like movie-theater popcorn. It tasted good, but it sure as hell didn't fulfill my appetite. X2 was by far the best movie in this series, with a perfect blend of action, drama, characterization, and so on and so forth. X3 felt rushed, hardly any time was spent on characterization, and it was choppy. X3 is a good summer flick, but when it comes to comic-book adaptations and follow-ups to great movies, this is sub-par at best.

    That was very well stated, Beowulf.:)
  8. Smuggler-of-Mos-Espa Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2002
    star 6
    That's one of the many things that I absolutely hated about it. In the comics, Cyclops was such a leader, even somewhat so in the two previous films. However, in "X3", it seems as if they got rid of him for the hell of it. The same with a lot of characters, including Gambit and Nightcrawler. Also, as it's already been said, I don't think Phoenix's power was truely explained. The movie in general just seemed far too civil.
  9. KissMeImARebel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2003
    star 4
    ^^^^ Cyke got the shaft, big time.

    I realize there were scheduling conflicts with Mardsen, but they had him for, I believe, over a month. More could have been done. Personally I feel his fate was sealed to give more of a role to Wolverine (Storm, of course, benefitted from his early demise as well).

    I'm not even a Cyclops fan, but he was important to the story: The Dark Phoenix Saga is about Jean's ability to overcome the Phoenix and sacrifice herself to save others, with Scott as her anchor. IMHO We saw none of this on the screen.

    Changes in Phoenix FX, overly campy dialogue, Halle's weak acting - I can all forgive. Just as long as I have a story with meaning and heart - IMHO this was sorely lacking from X3.
  10. HL&S Magistrate Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2001
    star 6
    There are some movies in trilogies and franchises that make their predicessors better movies. Like AOTC made TPM a better movie. AOTC itself wasn't anything special, but it helped us understand why things happened in TPM and what George was thinking when he spent 2 hours on some Japanese business group called the Trade Federation when there's an Empire to be formed, Vader to be created, and a galaxy to conquer.

    X3 is not one of those films. First let me say that Ratner has had a hit and miss career and him coming on board at the last minute certainly didn't help matters. The producers failing to lock Singer in for X3 by pulling his chain early on really hurt this film's direction. Also after they realized they lost Singer to Superman Returns of all movies truly was a kick in the nuts. I can understand why they wanted to get the film out before Superman Returns, but we all knew it was going to hurt the overall product by being rushed. I'm still kinda bitter (though I guess I shouldn't be) that Singer not only jumped ship, but landed on another Superhero franchise.

    Anyways, as has been said this film needed at least nother 40 minutes. It was too short for the big pay-off. Singer had set up a homerun. The Phoenix, the Brotherhood, and even the human threat should have been immense as a complicated combination of evil that the X-Men would have to fight against. Which they were, and yet not.

    The Phoenix storyline was a let down. As has been stated, the end of part 2 hinted at the firebird image. X3 didn't even give us that? Certainly it wasn't the budget holding it back but the rush to get the movie out in 10 months. Phoenix also didn't do anything to threaten the world. First her return was weak sauce. With X2, Singer left alot to be desired between the romance of Jean and Scott. It felt like at the end of X2 wolverine's part in that love triangle was over, but apparently the writers of X3 felt otherwise. This was the film where we were supposed to learn why she chose Scott over Logan. Why they were meant for each other. Instead we get Cyclops killed off screen at the start of the movie. Why? Perhaps it was because Marsden went with Singer to film Superman Returns? Perhaps it was because his character had been underused so much, they figured he wouldn't be missed? I don't know. All I know is that it was terrible writing. Not only does Phoenix kill the love of her life, but we're not even given a real explanation as to why. I mean she kills Charles because he wants to repress her. She tries to kill everyone (a bit late) on Alcatraz because they want to destroy her. She kills her lover Scott Summers because he kisses her? Was his tongue too controlling? Not only this, but when Wolverine tries to control her emotions and tell her that Prof. X can help her, she just brushes him aside. Doesn't bother to melt him down. Very inconsistent.

    Beast was good. Kelsey Grammer was the right choice and the makeup team did a swell job. Sure we have to ignore Dr. McCoy's human cameo in X2, but it went okay. But what was with his position in the government? Suddenly the government is there to help the mutants and not hurt them. I know the X-Men had a heart to heart with President McKenna in X2, but this was a new President. Surely the next step from Registration act and secret mutant exterimination was public extermination via violence.

    Which brings us to the mutant cure. It seemed to peaceful a resolution from the increasing fear of people. Now if the government was forcing the mutants to get the cure, I can understand that, but it was voluntary for the most part. Legislation to secret military action, to public military action seemed like the natural course. I felt Sentinels would have been welcome for the FINAL FILM OF THE FRANCHISE. Well apparently they were, or at least one was in the danger room. Or should I say his head was. I mean they couldn't even finish the entire Sentinel before the release? Jesus.

    Being that this was intended to be the final film of the franchise, you would think it would be time to go a
  11. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 10
    It'd be very nice if they could convince Cummings to film a few extra scenes as Nightcrawler, and have him interact with Angel at the mansion (given Nightcrawler's religious nature and the visual of an angel an a demon side-by-side), maybe have Nightcrawler be the one who teleports Angel to San Fransico.

    Obviously the trick with Nightcrawler is then it would make the Magneto problem a lot easier- no Wolvy distraction for Beast needed- just send Nightcrawler in and bamf! Jobs done, and Kurt adds another tatoo to his body...
  12. Indiana_Fett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2004
    star 4
    I would have like to see some interaction with Mystique and Nightcrawler.
  13. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 10
    Well, we did get some of that in X2, but your right, it would have been nice to get some followup there.
  14. Obi-Wan_Skywalker_29 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 1, 2003
    star 4
    I totally agree there. I REALLY hope they add extra scenes into the dvd. I was really dissappointed that certain lines didn't make it into the film (like Wolverine's "Magneto's got an army out there. You go to war you might not come home. She might not come home. You're ready for that?" and Iceman's reply "We're not kids anymore."). I thought the movie was good, but could have been a lot better with a few more scenes here and there. Hopefully the dvd will give us that. The one thing that I really can't forgive is killing off Cyclops right in the beginning. He would have been amazing during that final battle against the Brotherhood.
  15. darthmohican Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2005
    star 4
    Great great movie...doesnt exactly follow the comics but still amazing...best one of the 3
  16. Siths_Revenge Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2004
    star 7
    Saw it last night. Was just terrible, and boring. Some decent sequences, but there was really no plot to the movie, and no one really died. Also, why is McKellan outside at the end when he should be in jail? All in all, the movie was just dull.

    Also, for it being the third X Men, I still feel like I don't know any of them save for a handful. Everyone else was just extra. I thought it was funny at the end when everyone had this incredibly lost expression on their faces.
  17. Darth-Lando Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2002
    star 6
    Everyone keeps asking why Magneto doesn't wind up in jail. He never gets caught in the movie. Phoenix starts to go crazy everyone just takse off running. Obviously, Magneto managed to escape into the night. Since he no longer has his powers the government has no way to track him. I would imagine that Magneto has a safe house somewhere. He at least has that underground lair he was in. I'm sure that he's a wanted fugitive but a 70-something old man, former terrorist or not, is not the highest priority when there are probobly other, more dangerous mutants out there who still have their powers.
  18. Siths_Revenge Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2004
    star 7
    ^But Magneto was just on the TV a few hours earlier threatening the U.S. He should be pretty recongizable. If the Governmeent could capture Mystique, I don't know why capturing Magneto could be any different?
  19. Darth-Lando Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2002
    star 6
    The caught Mystique in the act of breaking into the FDA. They didn't hunt her down and arrest her. They were tracking Magneto by tracking magnetic waves, but once he lost his powers they couldn't do it anymore. All he has to do is lay low. The same way any fugitive on the run evades capture. I don't think it's that big of a stetch of the imagination.
  20. Siths_Revenge Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2004
    star 7
    ^Yeah, but I still find it hard to believe that after going through pretty much hell and back to get to him, Wolverine, etc, would just let him run off into the dark like that.
  21. Boba_Phat Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 29, 2000
    star 4
    Magneto should have been caught. He was stuck on an island without his powers. There would have been no way he could get away.
  22. Darth-Lando Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2002
    star 6
    No, he left the island by way of the bridge and ran for his life. Just like the rest of the Brotherhood, the X-Men, Worthington Labs employees, and the soldiers.

    As for Wolverine tracking him down, he's definetly capable at the time. But I think he was a little distracted by the fact that he was forced to kill the woman he loved, while having his body slowy disintigrate and grow back.
  23. Siths_Revenge Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2004
    star 7
    Like I said. No one dies in these movies.
  24. Darth-Lando Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2002
    star 6
    Xavier obviously lived.
    I'm 100% sure that Cyclops is still alive since it was never shown and never confirmed.
    Jean, killed, but the nature of the Phoenix is rebirth so a strong possibility for a return.
    Psylocke, Arclight, & Quill/Kid Omega: Definetly gone for good.
    Callisto: Possibly alive but I see no reason to bring her back.
    Juggernaut & Pyro: Only knocked out, no way they are dead.

    While there are quite a few "assumed" deaths, there a handful of characters that for sure died. But, none of them are major players anyway.
  25. Tyranus_the_Hutt Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2004
    star 4
    First let me say that Ratner has had a hit and miss career

    Ratner is an obvious target for criticism, not only because he has made a number of commercially successful films (many of which are entertaining, but few that have what you might call 'artistic value' ? that?s a strike against him in some factions of the critical community), but because he often comes off sounding like a supercilious punk in interviews; when Ratner boasts about his gifts, the enormity of his wealth or (*cringe*) any one of his various sexual 'conquests' ? or worse, when he decides to talk about himself in the third person - it does not make the man into an immediately endearing or sympathetic figure. He is, however, a more than competent director, and while Ratner might not have been the ideal choice to realize this material, he has been able to switch genres successfully in the past ("Rush Hour"; "The Family Man"; "Red Dragon"), so there was no reason to think that he could not have delivered a high-quality product. But that leads us to...

    and him coming on board at the last minute certainly didn't help matters.

    That?s a good point; if you buy into the auteur theory ? simply put, that a filmmaker imparts his or her vision onto a picture, therefore becoming 'its author' ? as I do in many instances, then clearly a measure of the franchise?s artistic direction was compromised by not only enlisting a different director, but also by operating on such a precarious schedule (sometimes that can work out, but in this case, I?m not convinced that it did).

    The producers failing to lock Singer in for X3 by pulling his chain early on really hurt this film's direction.

    Indeed; see above.

    I can understand why they wanted to get the film out before Superman Returns, but we all knew it was going to hurt the overall product by being rushed.

    I agree with what you?re saying, although at this juncture, I doubt as though 20th Century Fox shares these sentiments; the bottom line here (pun intended) is that "The Last Stand" is going to become the highest-grossing film in the franchise by a fairly substantial margin. That this installment provided some abstract resolution to some of the character arcs has only afforded the studio more of an opportunity to refine its artistic and conceptual material so that the inevitable spin-offs have a greater probability of enjoying a more positive and effusive reception by the public (in a critical, not commercial, sense).

    I'm still kinda bitter (though I guess I shouldn't be) that Singer not only jumped ship, but landed on another Superhero franchise.

    I?m not as upset ? perhaps (selfishly) because I have not been as invested in the "X-Men" films as some others have ? but I can understand your frustration.

    Anyways, as has been said this film needed at least nother 40 minutes. It was too short for the big pay-off. Singer had set up a homerun.

    There was too much plot and too many characters for the film to resolve in its relatively scant 104-minute running time; I think most of the movie?s problems exist at the screenplay level, which means that with another half-dozen re-writes, perhaps the material could have been given more fullness and dimension. As it, uh, stands, the film feels perfunctory and cobbled together.

    Also, for it being the third X Men, I still feel like I don't know any of them save for a handful.

    Apart from the central figures (Xavier, Wolverine, Magneto, Storm, etc.), I had a great deal of difficulty investing in any of the people in the film. Even many of the characters that had figured into the previous installments (Rogue, Cyclops, Mystique, Jean Grey) had so little to work with that even the most skilled performer would have difficulty imparting his/her characterization with richness and texture.

    Everyone else was just extra.

    One of the problems with this franchise ? and I?ve mentioned it earlier in this thread ? is that the filmmakers have insisted on adding more characters to each installmen
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