Amph X-Men Movies & TV - Discussion

And as it is, Logan doesn't need another archvillain. Sabretooth served more than well in that role until many a writer/editor mucked around or otherwise implemented idiotic retcons around the rivalry Claremont had set up between both men. Unless I'm mistaken, Romulus' role in the Weapon X project was originally Apocalypse's. And with one ancient, immortal, darwinist mutant at hand, why the hell bother to create lesser copy? Let alone retcon in such a contrived way so much crap around Logan's past to somehow fit with the new guy's machinations?

Ugh, I know that at this point I'm flogging the already flayed and decayed carcass of a dead equine, but really, the so called "House of Ideas" really pulled a doozy with that dude.

EDIT: rhonderoo: We honestly don't know. The events that lead Logan to the adamantium bonding bath perhaps did not happen or otherwise happened very differently. Since Logan did not pop his claws in the new shiny future, I guess we'll have to wait to Apocalypse to find out.

 

Romulus was a Jeph Loeb creation from the past 10 years. That alone should tell you all you need to know.

 

See, they didn't actually do that. They created this new guy to make sense of already existing inconsistencies. The retcon itself was inevitable unless you were willing to merely disregard a good chunk of stories; but having a pseudo-Apocalypse new guy behind these contradictions was such a horrible way to go about it...

 

Given the massive weight in stupidity of this rock they were already trying to push up hill, why would they add something about convergent evolution from wolves? I mean, it's just so groan-worthy at every point. Was it inspired by anything other than the fact that Wolverine has a word that sounds like "wolf" in his codename (never mind that its in the family of weasels)? Did we really need a "zomg the legends are true!" reference to the founding of Rome? I mean, at one point did anyone think this was a remotely good idea?

 

Fair enough. I don't see anything wrong in disregarding a few contradicting stories here and there if it makes things easier without having to create a reality altering/continuity rebooting event. Comic book characters already live in a fluid continuity wherein the passage of time in the real world doesn't affect their continuing histories. The same rule should apply to problematic or contradicting stories. No reason to create an even more problematic element like a half-baked, copy-paste character just to sort things out.

 

As I said earlier, they didn't do that. They left it as a (tremendously stupid) possibility, the next creative team to get his hands on Romulus decided to ignore the whole thing, and when the original team closed the Romulus storyline they thankfully confirmed the lupine thing was nothing but a lie. Still, wtf?

 

Yeah, that's what I'm trying to say. Although the initial idea was so stupid I did leave Wikipedia at first, I subsequently read your explanation. Even afterwards, though, I'm left wondering why they would have ever raised that possibility. It's not like there's a scenario where something good could've come of it.

EDIT: Also, the original team clearly meant it to be true. There's no real purpose in telling someone such an absurd lie.

 

Ah, okay, I misread you. I don't doubt Loeb wanted to go ahead with his lupine nonsense and relented when people wouldn't have it.

 

I'm also having a lot of trouble figuring out what it would mean even if it were true. If they truly underwent convergent evolution, then why would it matter what their ancestral form was? A dolphin's fins aren't any less functional than a sharks for having evolved from a land-based creature.

 

Just like news and many a story, not everything that makes it to the printed page is guaranteed to be any good. In an ideal world an editor should know when a story or concept shouldn't be given a green light. However, neither Marvel nor DC are interested in constantly producing high-art. Thus, more often than not no idea is too stupid and we get **** like Romulus. Or Onslaught. Or the Rainbow-brite ring corps. Or Doomsday. Or Bane. And so on, etc.

 

Oh? I thought people loved the different Corps?

 

I honestly believe that the concept of Onslaught was brilliant -- an amalgam of Charles' psionic energy and Magneto's mutant power consciousness, the yin and the yang coming together.

Just executed crappily because they wanted the reboots.

 

I liked the concept better when it was evil Xavier.

 

Wasn't that just the end of a Shi'ar arc though? Leading into the Shadow King?

 

Yeah, I liked that they went back to that old story. Plus it being Xavier made sense considering the actions Onslaught had taken during the lead-up to the crossover. I guess they got cold feet about tarnishing the image of St. Xavier (hilarious considering what they would to it ten years later...)

 

I can't say I ever liked the concept then and time hasn't dissuaded me from the notion. Besides, Charley X going evil or taken out of the leadership position of the X-Men wasn't a new concept then or now. Finally, Lobdell and Nicieza and mid 90's X-Men editorial sucked arse. Then there's that messy, disjointed crossover. By the gods. Had the story been more concise and not geared to provoke what turned out to be irrelevant and not well-received reboots of the non-mutant MU titles, maybe it could've been more interesting...

...nah, it still would've sucked. Again, I should've bailed out of comics in general by 1990.

 

There's a difference in having a perfect life and then making a concentrated effort to make someone what you want them to be. In Norman's case, he didn't want to kill Peter. He wanted to psychologically break him. In Romulus's case, he wanted to make Logan into a complete and amoral killer.

At best, all that is being said, is that whatever happened between 1973 and 2005 could very well be different in that regard. It could still be Stryker, it could be Magneto, it could be Apocalypse.

As Darth-Lando noted, this was Loeb's idea. He has a habit of coming up with something and then not really following through on it. And even outright contradicting things. This was evident with his Red Hulk storyline which undermined a lot of Marvel lore, let alone Hulk lore.

More about how there were a number of Mutants with similar wolf like attributes in the the Marvel Universe, on top of Mutants that were connected to the Weapon X project and Department H. Prior to Loeb's story, the idea was that Canada had wanted their own super soldier program and opted to use Mutants. Logan was one of the more successful attempts who escaped from them.

Loeb was probably inspired in part by Logan's original origin where he wasn't a Mutant, but an evolved wolverine that was turned into a human by the High Evolutionary who was known for creating anthropomorphic creatures.

 

. . .

Well, congratulations. You found something even more stupid and indefensible than what we were just discussing.

 

It was never actually written. I should clarify that. It was the intended origin for the character, but ultimately it was nixed.

 

And thank the gods for that. I mean, wtf was the guy who came up with that idea thinking (or smoking)?

What next...a talking raccoon?

 

I know you meant this ironically, but I am entirely unironic in my agreement.

 

I actually like the "Origin" origin for Wolverine where he was a sickly aristocratic kid (haven't bothered with Origin 2), thought it worked well and I loved seeing it pop up in "Origins: Wolverine". In fact, I'll go down saying the first, say, 8 minutes or so of "Wolverine: Origins" (his 1800s era first teenage claw pop & the Logan / Creed battle through the decades montage) is fairly fantastic stuff and works great for the character.

... then the rest of the movie happens. Which, honestly, I don't even hate. It's just a cheseball revenge movie starring Hugh Jackman's Wolverine so, hey, why not? And I think Liev Schriber is actually pretty great anytime he pops up in the flick. "VICTORRRRR!!" "Hey, you got insurance in this place?" "Insurance? No." "Too bad..."

 

Of course you are. But NIAWYC: that evolved wolverine idea would've been devastating.

 

Logan's entire skeleton was covered in adamantium originally. We don't know if this even happens in the timeline of the Happy Happy Joy Joy future.

Why would we find out in the Apocalypse film? Is that film supposed to contain scenes in the non-dystopian future shown at the end of DOFP? I thought it was going to be set in the 1980s.

 

It will be set in the 80's. I'm speculating on the possibility that Logan might be given the adamantium by Apocalypse and turned into this movie's version of his horseman Death. Again, speculating. Relax.