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Amph X-Men Movies & TV (Now: Gifted, Legion; Next: New Mutants, Dark Phoenix)

Discussion in 'Community' started by JoinTheSchwarz , Oct 6, 2010.

  1. Sith_Sensei__Prime

    Sith_Sensei__Prime Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 22, 2000
    Wolverine is NOT James Bond. Hugh Jackman's Wolverine had its character arc and well deserved send off/closure unlike James Bond. And let's be clear, the MCU won't be rebooting X-Men in the sense that they're totally different universes. Mutants have never existed in the MCU as it's currently known. Therefore, the introduction of mutants in the MCU is technically not a reboot of Fox's X-Men. Moreover, the Batman example you provided is a set of films within the same studio, WB and founded on Tim Burton's universe. X-Men is in a situation where it's coming from one studio to another so the Batman and Jame Bond comparisons aren't factually the same.

    Please, Jubilee, Shadowcat, Colossus and Cannonball are NOT all popular characters, especially when it comes to the cinemas iterations. These characters have came and went in the comics with little or no fanfare by the readers.

    No, it won't be just fanboys that will complain about resurrections of characters, but also critics and members of the general audience as the impact of a character's death has no meaning. I mean, why not bring back Uncle Ben for Peter?

    How so? None the events you speak of is part of the MCU and nor should it. The incorporation of SHIELD into those events are just fan fiction. Moreover, even those events after the Paris event you mentioned have conceivably been changed by Days of Future Past, thus why I say the X-Men continuity is all over the place. Why would the MCU need the Fox X-Men universe retcon/incorporated into theirs?

    As I noted numerous times, Bryan Singer's adaptation of the X-Men is horrible in terms of adapting the essence and themes because it takes a back seat to Logan, who is not a member of the X-Men in his first two films. Again, there is really no need to incorporate this convoluted Singer-verse X-Men films into the MCU.

    Marvel is free to take the X-Men in any direction they want and create any history they want. They'll be allowed to shape and mold their X-Men characters and stories apart from what Fox created. It's a brand new world.
     
  2. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace JCC Ravager star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2004
    The events of the 70s in DOFP have not been undone since the film's release. That is the opposite of the movie's plot. The entire point of the movie is to make those things happen, in order to avoid the grim future that is the film's framing story. The only thing that is undone is the future war between mutants and humans. However, as a consequence of DOFP, the general public now knows about mutants since the Nixon administration, whereas the first movie from 2000 depicts it as if public knowledge of them is recent.

    I don't see why neither critics nor general audiences would feel that Wolverine's death is cheapened if he is alive in new films with a different actor. The movie Logan is already set in the future, meaning that even within the fiction he's supposed to be alive in the present. And I believe it was you yourself who argued that that movie is a spinoff not part of the main continuity anyway. A decent case can be made for that too, considering it has another Caliban who is mentioned by name as Caliban and is a different guy from the other Caliban. I myself think that Fox's X-Men universe and the MCU are incompatible, so I agree with you. But not because of this. This is a dumb reason.

    Also, to compare with bringing uncle Ben back is silly. First of all, Logan is alive in the present, so it wouldn't even be a resurrection. Secondly, one of these is one of the main characters of the stories he appears in (X-Men) while uncle Ben is not. He's barely even a supporting character, he's never been alive for longer than a single issue in any of the comic book runs I am guessing, because he's not a person, he's a plot device. He's the deus ex machina that is the impetus for Spider-Man to be Spider-Man. To bring him back is to uproot the entire thematic core of your story. His death and Peter's guilt about it is what shapes Peter Parker to view crime fighting as his duty, responsibility and to some degree penance. Logan is not someone else's plot device. He's one of the main characters, and in the movieverse has been the one the narrative follows for most of the films, which arguably makes him the main character. He can be brought back (as a hypothetical, because he's not actually dead in the present) even for the dumbest of reasons because he's a protagonist and people want to see him. Bringing uncle Ben back serves no story purpose and no one wants or cares to see him back because he's fulfilled his function in the story.
     
  3. Sith_Sensei__Prime

    Sith_Sensei__Prime Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 22, 2000
    Agreed, Days of Future Past does not undo the events of the 1970's but it does create a new timeline where Scott and Jean are both alive.

    And I'm not talking about resurrecting Logan, but other characters like Emma Frost and whatnot. The mutants killed by Trask. I'm saying there's no point in trying to resurrect them as they serve as motivation for Magneto and Mystique in the same way the death of Uncle Ben serves Peter.

    My point regarding Logan/Wolverine is the absence of Hugh Jackman. That if you're going to recast the character, you might as well start from scratch. Hugh Jackman's Logan was given a conclusion. And he (Wolverine) won't be used in the upcoming Dark Phoenix film and it's very unlikely he'll be used in any other upcoming Fox X-Men film. Which was part of my reason they should not want to incorporate Fox's X-Men universe.

    So, we're basically in agreement that the Fox X-Men universe is incompatible with the MCU.
     
  4. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Whether or not there was a send off or not, the characters are beyond just a single actor. That was the point in being able to change Bond, without recasting everyone and chucking out what came before. That's why there was talk from everyone, including Jackman, about recasting. Not about rebooting, but just hiring a new actor to take over.

    A television series that can be easily ignored since it is a low rated show and is largely ignored by the films.

    Now who is letting their fanboy shine through. ;)

    If Fiege was that uptight, then there won't be anymore Deadpool films with Ryan Reynolds and X-Force won't have Josh Brolin as Cable.

    Cinema iterations aren't that important, because then none of the characters except Wolverine has been popular if you're going to use that as an argument. The other characters have all had prominent places on the various books, with Kitty and Pitor headlining the Gold team.

    Critics who didn't mind Spock coming back from the dead, or Jim Kirk? Or Optimus Prime. Doctor Who has died over thirteen times. Doc Brown dies and returns in the same movie.

    First, I was speaking of how it would work without rebooting or claiming separate universes. Second, the Paris accords are still in play, as noted in "Apocalypse". In the original timeline, Raven was captured after killing Trask and was locked up and experimented on for years. Now, as noted, the public has a different view of events. The only events that were changed were the events that were covered in the films from 2000-2009, "The Wolverine" and the future war. That's clear as Charles knows that the Logan from the other timeline is now inhabiting his body and he states that he kept his promise to him. As well as Scott and Jean being alive, when they were dead in the other timeline. As well as Charles taking a different approach to handling Jean and how Scott was able to get to the mansion before Sabertooth found him.

    Really? Mutant persecution is highlighted in every film, with Iceman's family being handled well. Erik wants to fight in order to establish peace through aggression, while Charles wants peace through peaceful means and resolutions. Erik feels that the crimes against the Jews will be perpetrated against the Mutants, in the same manner. What's missing?

    There's no reason to ignore it either. They can cherry pick what they need and the 21st century stories are wide open.
     
  5. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace JCC Ravager star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2004
    True. The changes done to the timeline in DoFP means that all of the movies released prior to 2011 (plus The Wolverine) didn't take place, or at least not exactly like that (which is, ironically, the most comic-book-y thing any big screen superhero series has done), which means that the entire 21st century period is open for original stories.
     
  6. Sith_Sensei__Prime

    Sith_Sensei__Prime Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 22, 2000

    This is the very reason to ignore it. They can cherry pick whatever they want without some convoluted BS.

    Again, if you're going to recast Wolverine in the MCU just start from scratch. Let MCU have it's own story separate from Fox.

    And say what now about ignoring a television show?

    Yeah, knowing that WB produced the Batman films is a super fanboy thing which you opened the door to. :p Point is the situation between those Batman films are different from X-Men and the MCU.

    There's a difference between prominent and popular. Wolverine is both popular cinematically and comic book wise. He's also prominent.

    And the resurrections you speak of, fit well in this respective stories and weren't convoluted but more organic. You're ideas of resurrecting characters from the Fox X-Men Universe and then incorporating them into the MCU is very convoluted.

    And really, Logan/Wolverine is in the forefront of the earlier X-Men films, the lead singer and he really doesn't care about the battle between Eric and Charles or humans hating on mutants. That's why he left the mansion in the first film and only came to find more answers about his past.
     
  7. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    So, finally caught up on The Gifted. Really impressed by this show so far. They really nailed the X-Men feel with the whole underground angle and portraying the societal bias. It’s basically the X-Men without resources.

    Cast has been strong too, and the storylines have remained interesting (except maybe the Cartel subplot) despite not having any real villains (at least until Dr. Terminator showed up). And good (and frequent) use of their powers helps maintain the feel.

    Probably my only criticism is the oddly persistent bad ADR occurring several times an episode. They must film in a pigeon airport because I can’t recall hearing that so often on any other show.

    Timeline wise I don’t think this fits into any existing timeline.

    It’s definitely set present day/2017- you have the “4 years” reference for a gravestone and Blink’s flashback from “2 years ago” has a movie theater listing several films including Maze Runner and Peanuts (the latter and the sequel of the former both came out in 2015). The Xenomorph reference doesn’t track (since Prometheus was earlier and Covenant later) but that could be a rerelease/special screening.

    It mentions Trask going belly up in 2006- and even though it recently reopened, it’s quieter operations would suggest it advertising on TV as a prelude to real-deal Sentinels ala The Wolverine stinger didn’t already happen.

    Additionally, the research mentions not finding a cure-all for the X-gene, which suggests X3’s didn’t exist.

    Likewise, Trask Industries presumably wouldn’t be around after the reboot timeline’s events with the Sentinels (nor would they name a govt agency after them after that) and with Trask in jail in the Rogue Cut.

    We also have a widespread report and public awareness of mutants in 1952 with Fenris. This would seem to contradict their apparent obscurity in the 60’s during First Class (there’s also the matter of implying Magneto was a “king” amongst the Hellfire Club which wouldn’t fit FC unless one stretches the definition of the subsequent Brotherhood).

    And, given that there’s no evidence of mutants being wiped out via infertility and genetic corn syrup, it’s probably safe to rule out the Logan timeline as well (even if it’s not a certainty- the X-Men dying via Charles could conceivably fit the bill but this seems too soon for that to be happening, especially given DOFP).

    The X-Men having vanished and not being accessible via knocking on their door would also rule-out Deadpool’s world too, if he is in a separate confusing timeline.

    So, we have differences before during and after the various film continuities but also some similar touchstones- such as the location used by Trask to source his adamantium and the possibility of the Frost trio being the granddaughter(s) of the FC Emma, with the XMOW Emma being their mom (assuming the former gave birth to the latter, which would track especially with The Gifted’s focus on families passing down the same power sets).

    So, definitely an alternate universe- but just yet another one tied to the filmverse.

    (I guess Legion could connect in theory but anything concrete from Legion for continuity links, other than his age range, is basically impossible by design)
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  8. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace JCC Ravager star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2004
    I've only seen the first three episodes so far, and liked it.
     
  9. Sith_Sensei__Prime

    Sith_Sensei__Prime Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 22, 2000
    I'd say The Gifted is in their own pocket universe. Which works wells with it's story telling, much like Legion is in it's own pocket universe. I don't feel the need to connect these shows with each other as they're doing well on their own.

    The Gifted is doing a wonderful job in developing their characters and world building. The Stepford Cuckoos were a great addition to the story, and I like how they're being used as untrustworthy wild cards. It's definitely spices up the dynamics of the show and the relationships between the characters as it somewhat provides that Charles vs. Eric philosophy. I was bummed out to learned the show will be hitting it's season finale in a couple of weeks, but Legion should be coming on soon.
     
  10. Sith_Sensei__Prime

    Sith_Sensei__Prime Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 22, 2000
    It's been confirmed that The Gifted will have a season two. I was a little concern that it wouldn't because of the Fox/Disney deal, but I'm glad it's coming back. The characters and story have been wonderful and it was a pleasant surprise for me. And I think the reveal of Polaris' father will have more instant gratification than the reveal of Rey's parents in "The Last Jedi."

    I hope before this show ends it will reveal what happen to the X-Men and the Brotherhood of Mutants. I my head, they're off in a "Secret Wars" or "Dark Phoenix" type of thing.
     
    BigAl6ft6 likes this.
  11. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    Yeah, neither requires integration into an existing timeline- but it's good to rule out the possibilities as information is presented.

    Of course, if one could rectify the 1952 Fenris details with First Class (not impossible, just not likely at the moment), we could at least say that The Gifted splinters off from X2, ignoring X3, into it's own timeline. It'd just be nice to know exactly what common points of reference they have.
     
  12. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace JCC Ravager star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2004
    In the second or third episode they had a newspaper headline from 1960 about mutant mayhem. It's clear they're doing their own thing apart from the movie universe.
     
  13. soitscometothis

    soitscometothis Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 11, 2003
    I've been watching it and find it neither bad nor great. Amy Acker and Steven Moyer are the best actors, but their roles are a little bland, and of course Garret Dillahunt is always good, but I find a lot of the younger cast pretty but uninteresting. I don't think the series has found its feet yet, but it's not an embarrassment by any means.

    I'm looking forward to season 2 of Legion, but I worry that after such a strong opening season they might have nowhere to go but down.
     
  14. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    Right, that’s the 1952 flashback with Fenris- or was there something else you’re referring to? (I watched the first 3 episides awhile ago, binged the rest last week).
     
  15. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace JCC Ravager star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2004
    Garret Dillahunt's character is looking up a newspaper clipping about mutant siblings having caused a warehouse fire somewhere and the main cover headline says "Mutant mayhem" or something like that. I don't remember the exact year, but I do remember that it was prior to 1962 (which is the year First Class takes place), my point being that in the established movie universe, the public did not have knowledge about mutants this far back for the newspaper to be referencing them, so it can't be set in that universe.
     
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  16. Sith_Sensei__Prime

    Sith_Sensei__Prime Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 22, 2000
    I believe this is the newspaper article in question, which is dated March 4, 1952 and has the word "Mutant" in the headlines, so I definitely acknowledges that mutants are public knowledge:

    [​IMG]

    I like this "Wonder Twins Activate" flavoring on the show. It adds a different dynamic to the characters and the show. Also, it's kind of Kylo Ren-ish and Polaris might have a Luke Skywalker Empire Strikes Back moment in the next episode.
     
  17. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    Ah, ok, I remember that now.

    And, yeah, that was my original timeline point re: level of public knowledge of mutants.

    It’s possible it could be explained (say it’s restricted to German news or some such- world is a smaller, more contained place back then afterall) but it might be a stretch. But it would need to be in order to work with FC and and subsequent portion of the prime timeline.
     
  18. Violent Violet Menace

    Violent Violet Menace JCC Ravager star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2004
    That's the one. I don't know why I got the word "mayhem" in my mind. Strange. Is that paper from a flashback, or is he looking at an archival copy in the present?
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2018
  19. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    Dr Terminator looked it up early on when he was introduced I believe.

    The Mutant Mayhem headline was during the flashback (and probably subsequent present day discussions over the Fenris history).