CT X-Wings and hyperdrive

This has probably been covered at some point and I missed it, but anyway...In ANH, when our heroes spot a TIE Fighter in apparently empty space near where Alderaan was supposed to be, they are surprised, and Han and Ben say something like "that ship is too small to have hyperdrive" (I'm going off of memory here). However, in TESB, Luke is able to travel from Hoth to Dagobah, then rush off to Bespin to rescue Han & Leia, in his X-Wing, while the Millennium Falcon has trouble just getting to Bespin with the hyperdrive inoperable. I've inferred from that that X-Wings have hyperdrive, and yet they're basically the same size as TIE Fighters. So, what gives, is the rebellion that much ahead of the Empire in hyperdrive technology, or did I miss something?

 

TIE fighters are designed for rapid mass production, leaving out all the non-essentials like shields, droids, and hyperdrive so that they can be rushed off the production lines by the thousands. The rebellion couldn't possibly compete with the Empire's numbers, so they invested in quality Starfighters that were equipped with all the bells and whistles.

Ben said, "That's a short-range fighter"; he never said anything about how big a TIE is, and if you compare their volumes, rebel fighters are definitely more roomy than TIEs.

 

That makes sense, or probably as much sense as anything will in a "space opera".

 

Size does come up slightly later in the conversation though.

Ben Kenobi: It's an Imperial fighter.
Luke Skywalker: It followed us!
Ben Kenobi: No, it's a short-range fighter.
Han Solo: There aren't any bases around here. Where did it come from?
Luke Skywalker: It sure is leaving in a big hurry. If they identify us, we're in big trouble.
Han Solo: Not if I can help it. Chewie, jam its transmissions.
Ben Kenobi: It'd be as well to let it go. It's too far out of range.
Han Solo: Not for long.
Ben Kenobi: A fighter that size couldn't get this deep into space on its own.
Luke Skywalker: He must have gotten lost, been part of a convoy or something.
Han Solo: Well, he ain't going to be around long enough to tell anyone about us.

 

Rebel pilots are masters of their own fates.

Imperial philosophy is to have starfighters dependent on a host ship, like a star destroyer. So they don't get hyperdrives.

 

Just to keep the conversation going (at work, bored, and hating it), if I could change one thing with the starship design, it would be for the X-Wings and other rebellion-specific fighters to not have hyperdrive. Granted, I realize that it's supposed to be seen as an "equalizer" to an Empire with infinite resources, but alternatively, the Empire had its resources spread out over a massive area, where the Rebellion had been able to focus on a singular entity as its target. Being able to jump to hyperspace and show up at your target's back door (especially with a fleet as big as that in ROTJ) seems to fly in the face of the "underdog" label a bit. It seems like it should be more of a logistical issue just to get from point "A" to point "B" for an entity as strapped as the Rebellion.

Having a few ships modified as such - and having to work in tandem with the crux of the fleet that doesn't - is one thing, but all of the fighters jumping to lightspeed? Nah. If nothing else, I can see a situation where Incom and other manufacturers would have been under such tight control (surely the Empire would have a moratorium on "private" fighters with hyperdrives?), that there's no way they would risk having ships leave their factory with them installed.

Oops, is my pro-Empire side showing?

 

Back during the Clone Wars, the Jedi Fighters used hyperspace booster rings to allow for independent travel. Obi-wan is aware enough to know that the Empire has not used said devices for their TIE Fighters and no Imperial ship was detected by Han and Chewie. And since he knew that it couldn't have followed them, that is why he is puzzled. On the opposite end, the Alliance needed to be on the go without such limitations. Which is why they invested in ships that had hyperdrives and droids, going for quality over quantity.

 

What you are missing is that not all of the Rebel fighters had hyperdrives, and the ones that did not, did not get involved in the onscreen action that we saw onscreen in the Original Trilogy.

The ones that had no hyperdrive, such as the Incom Z-95s, were confined to star systems, and protected their bases as best they could, like the snowspeeders on Hoth.

If you do have a pro-Empire side, you may be unaware that the Empire ****** people off. If those people owned hyperspace-capable starfighters, or were pilots in military forces that had hyperspace-capable starfighters, some of them switched sides, and took their craft over to the Alliance; in the manner of Biggs Darklighter jumping ship to seek out the Alliance.

 

That was actually my thought, too, as I created the OP. Or rather, the Empire has Star Destroyers to transport their fighters, the rebels either don't have the resources fir such a large ship, or such a ship would attract unwanted attention or, as you say, it's a philosophical difference between the two.

 

Personally I think the whole idea of traveling long distance through space in a small starfighter is ridicious. Fighters being transported by a carrier through interstellar space makes more sense. X wing and Y wings were not shown to be longer range craft until TESB, likely as plot convenience.

Having said that, I think fighters with onborad hyperdrives like X wings still have a limited range, like they probably can't cross the galaxy by themselves. Fighters with detachable hyperdrive rings like the Jedi used probably are faster with a longer range and don't have to carry the mass of a hyperdrive during a dogfight. However leaving a ring parked in space does make such a fighter vulnerable. While TIEs are lightweight, disposable craft flown by disposable clone pilots. One of the Empire's themes is that it can quickly out manufactuer replacements, a machine mentality. During WW2 the Germans had much better tanks than the Allies did, however, the Aillies built smaller, cheaper, and easier to build tanks to out manufacture the German tanks and eventually outnumber them. That is besides relying on greater speed and maneuverability. It is also in the old 1978 movie poster book that TIEs use much more advanced sublight engines than any of the rebel craft did since most were outdated models. Despite armor and shields, the rebel fighters in ANH were being mowed down by TIEs.

 

Well, technically, an X-Wing shouldn't be able to stay in Hyperspace more than a week. Because it has only 1-week supplies of consumables, to support pilots.

I see having a Hyperdrive on the Star Fighters of the Alliance is a very wise choice. They can be independent. They can carry out spy missions, being able to haul ass by jumping into Hyperspace (Lol if Poe got to his X-wing b4 it was shot on Jakku there would be no Finn and Rey'd still be on Jakku). The Alliance is not big, there are low chance of defection to go back to the Imperials.

Having hyperdrives equipped on the fighters shine at Hoth. They are able to escort the freighters out of Hoth, then instead of having to land at a host ship, they can jump to Hyperspace and rendezvous with the rest of the fleet at that exact moment, that'd save lives of numerous pilots. Alliance doesn't have a lot of pilots, and most of the pilots are unicum. They couldn't afford to lose them

Yes, the Alliance goes for Quality rather than Quantity. They don't have the amount to defeat the Imperials. Heck they'd be mad to defeat the Imperials by numbers

 

Sarge, is correct. The empire has a huge manufacturing base(are the company like Siener and Kuat Drive Yards still canon?). They also have a large manpower advantage until After Endor. They military strategy is like the soviet union, when in doubt overwhelm the enemy with numbers. The also used easily mass produced technology in many cases. In the case of fighters only ships like vader and the inquistors tie adanced Models have hyperdrives.

The rebels did not Have those luxuries, much of the rebel fleet are repurposed civilian ship(the mon cal Ships started as luxury space liners), clone wars era retreads(Y-wings, Z95 headhunters, the medical frigate, corellian corvettes) or something the military personel themselves owned like the falcon. with a smaller base of people to draw from they needed to adopt tech that increased Their pilots chances of survival.

The old eu story on the X-wing is that the Incom design team defected To the rebellion when the empire nationalised their company,taking the fighters plans with them. The A-wing and B-wings used to be ships that were produced very late in the war but The Rebels Cartoon changed the timeline in canon(in fact while we have seen both of those ships but no X-wings in rebels).

 

Can you provide a link to an example of what you mean by "1978 movie poster book"? Thanks.

 

Another important point is that the Empire teaches its soldiers to rely on the chain of command. By having the TIE pilots utterly dependent on their Star Destroyer to get them out of a system, it makes them more motivated to protect that Star Destroyer during an engagement.

 

Star Wars Poster Monthly magazine:


STAR WARS: OFFICIAL POSTER MONTHLY #6
Published March 1978 by Galaxy Publications. Text writers Michael Marten, Jon Trux, John May.

http://www.theforce.net/image_popup/image_popup_global.asp?Image=timetales/misc/arcana/post6-03.jpg



X-Wing: Because Rebels have few resources, all ships are refurbished earlier models. Lovingly maintained, with replacement engines and body panels. Basic fighting ships, battered and stripped of all but essentials. Armed with four wingtip laser cannon. Wings extend into characteristic X-foil for maximum maneuverability in attack mode. Crew: one human pilot and an Artoo unit.

Y-Wing: Chopped and hot-rodded attack gunships of the Alliance. Body shell has been stripped aft of cockpit by Rebel mechanics for ease of access. Twin laser cannon in cockpit turret.

TIE Fighter: Sinister pursuit craft of the Empire. Technology and resources of the powerful Imperial fleet allows use of advanced ion engine propulsion rather than rocket engines. Shape (black, batwinged) enhances use of TIE Fighter as terror weapon.​

 

Why?

 

This is it. The Empire fears individuality within their ranks and sees hyperdrives as something that could encourage individuality while the Rebels value every pilot's life.

 

Well, the Rebel starfighters were sitting targets in the Death Star trench. One of the Lando Calrissian novels makes the point that in general, starfighter shields were "notoriously porous".

I would not take your poster book's claim to heart, as the reason we/the Empire got TIE Interceptors in the next film, was because the opposite was true (X-Wings were owning TIE fighters), and the new model was created to address that issue.
On the other hand, since the Empire did not value their TIEs much, and the first time that the Alliance suffered at the hands of the new interceptors, it was when X-Wings had hyperspace-jumped in to attack a base or convoy; I think the issue might have been that X-Wings were faster than the TIE fighters, so attacked and jumped out before the TIEs reached them, whilst the new Interceptors were speedy enough to swarm the Rebel fighters before they could leave.

 

In the EU maybe - but in the newcanon we see TIE Interceptors in Rebels Season 3 (some 3-2 years before ANH) but still haven't seen X-wings yet. It may be less X-wings owning TIEs, and more Everything Else owning TIEs.

 

Yeah, call me a stick in the mud, or an old dog who cannot learn new tricks, but I'll take a few decades of evolution over a couple years under Disney ownership.

 

The X-wing video game also showed Interceptors appearing prior to the Battle of Yavin.

That said, X-wings themselves had entered service with the Rebellion before that.

It'll be interesting to see how the newcanon portrays the evolution of the TIE design - does the Interceptor still descend from the TIE Advanced series project?

 

Video games during the Lucas era did not have much canon eligibility as far as I am aware.

I enjoyed The Force Awakens, but with the **** they pulled and made canon, I won't be championing newcanon over that established in Episodes 1-6, and the EU, anytime soon.

I might be more amenable with the re-imagining of Thrawn, see how it goes.

 

No less canon than any other C-canon source - it was gameplay statistics that were of dubious canonicity, not storylines.


Even early EU (West End Games) was portraying Interceptors as fairly widespread around ANH - with standard complement for an ANH-era Star Destroyer including one squadron of Interceptors.

Removing "Interceptor was designed to counter the X-wing" isn't necessarily all that odd a choice - it allows for a longer design time - making it much more "TIE fighter successor"


Similarly, the idea that A-Wings and B-wings were post-Yavin designs never really fit well with Droids - resulting in the rather clunky "R-22 Spearhead" and "Tempest Bomber" retcons - which aren't necessary any more.

 

Is there a source for this?

 

The Essential Guide to Warfare portrayed the Interceptor as being designed specifically to counter the X-wing:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightspeed_Panthers

however it's possible that other sources dropped hints along those lines.