Yeah, right....

Discussion in 'Literature' started by neimoidian_85, Jun 27, 2001.

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  1. Valiento Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2000
    star 7
    most of the good old days ended when the boards were split up. Now there is less to discuss about. now if people get humorous we are threatened for going off subject or making something a club. everything is pretty much too serious now, and that's putting people on edge.
  2. Wedge 88 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 1999
    star 6
    Its all about the prequels now...

    Which do excite me, but I'll always think of the books as home.
  3. Wildwookiee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2001
    star 4
    Intellegent argument is good for the soul.
    we also must remember that Authors frequent these boards and we should be respectful. I have seen some very rude posts out, and I think that these off color remarks should stop. That is what is making these forms stink. I think that if people have an INTELLEGENT and well thought out problem with the EU, then it should be discussed. Some problemc could be such as poor characterization (Hambly, KJA), or the tendancy to focus on a single character when it might not be appropriate- (Stackpole), or an author might even drone on with description and repitition instead of getting to the point and keeping the story moving forward (Zahn). No writer is perfect, and in fact every one of these authors that I mentioned I truly enjoyed their books, and though some may not agree with me, I think that they all have a place somewhere in the SW universe. Negative discussion promotes the desire for perfection, and if an author happens to read a post that has constructive critisizm, then they might say, "hey I never thought about that, I'll listen to my fans, and make the next book better." I seriously doubt that a post that says "Barbra Hambly should be banned" in anyway accomplishes anything. In conclusion, THINK about what you post, and THINK about who might read it. THINK about what good it will do to post it, and are you actually trying to promote decient discussion and debate, or are you just being an a$$?
  4. darthjarjarbinks Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2000
    star 4
    eaglejedi- While expressing ap point of view as fact may be good debating/pursuasion strategy, it is not condusive to good, open, educated and light-hearted discussion. Like I said and like you said, its just a courtesy which hopefully will avoid people getting the wrong impression and getting fired up.
  5. eaglejedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2001
    star 5
    I'm still not convinced it's necessary. But more to the point, if people realize what I said, they won't want to do it.
  6. Protege-of-Thrawn Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2001
    star 6
    hear hear. all of you.
    try to have a bit of fun in these forums, but always logged off feeling a little bit depressed.
    to say I HATE someone i strong, but fair enough, if you do, then thats your opinion.
    the problem is when people say THIS writer is crap, or talentless, or cant write....
    HELLO? if they are sucessful writers and can obviously earn a living from the craft, then they do have talent and CAN write.
    you may not like their style, but your valued opinion in no way detracts from their skills as a writer.
    lighten up guy's.
  7. barnsthefatjedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2001
    star 5
    Gatherer, I agree, but I think it's only because people automatically lash out and behave hostile when someone posts a negative opinion. That is not fair.

    'So many arguments of a destructive and unproductive nature could be avoided if, instead of writing...

    "KJA sucks" or "CotJ was absolute crap"

    people should just take that small effort to reaffirm that this is solely their opinion, and leave their opinion totally open to discussion with comments like...

    "I personally disagree with KJA's whole take the the GFFA." and "IMHO, Children of the Jedi was bad because (reasons)"

    When people disagree the statements presented with the first two options, they tend to disagree with a lot of agression because they feel their favourite author has just been bashed for no reason.

    When people disagree with the arguments presented in the second two options, they are more likely to get involved in a decent discussion on the pros and cons of that novel/author.'


    You raise a good point about how one should always fully explains one's view rather than simply "KJA sucks", but I take no objection to somebody posting KJA sucks and then giving logical reasons. As eaglejedi says, it is more forceful than IMO or whatever and makes the point stronger. It obviously is their opinion and only their opinion, but I can still see where you're coming from.

    What irritates me about this arguement though, is the fact that if someone posted "Zahn rules! He's the greatest SW author without doubt", people would not take offense or objection to this statement and respond in a hostile manner. The statement is effectively the same as "KJA sucks", there's no IMO there. The only difference is that one is positive and the other is negative. The same arguements for why "KJA sucks" is bad could be used on "Zahn rules! He's the greatest SW author without doubt"

    Maybe I think Zahn is the worst author. Maybe I think his books were terrible and they didn't capture the feel of SW. Is it not my right to have such an opinion? But; if I were to go into a Zahn gushing thread, where all there is is "Zahn should be given a Nobel prize, his work is unparalleled" and get angry and start flaming people, it would be seen as MY fault, not the author of the thread's. I would be to blame. No one would come to my defense saying, "Perhaps if the author had started with 'In my opinion, Zahn is the best SW author' then Barns would not have acted this way" I'd be labelled a troll and banned for flaming.

    There is a double standard at work here and it's not fair.

    To make up the excuse that someone saying "KJA sucks" is in the wrong and anyone who posts a hostile flame afterwards is not really to blame because the title was provacative and somehow forced them to behave that way is absolute nonsense. They are not in the wrong, they are expressing an opinion and anyone who disagrees is not justified to behave in an agressive manner towards the author

    If you post a flame, YOU are to blame, not the author of the thread or anyone else.

    If you don't like negative discussion, or you feel that you are going to get angry, then do the responsible thing and stay out of it.
  8. Dewlanna Solo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 1999
    star 4
    neimoidian_85 said:"
    I have an idea....

    From now on when someone has a over the edge negative opinion, start it out with

    IN MY OPINION.............
    '


    How about when someone is over the top with a positive opinion? I have seen a lot more "imho, (insert author of choice) stinks" posts than I have "imho (insert author) rules" posts. Why should negative opinions be the only ones needing to be identified as opinions?

    It's a discussion board, most of what is said is opinion. I should hope that most of the people coming here can tell the difference between fact and opinion. "Zahn rulz" is opinion, "TTT helped revive interest in Star Wars before the prequels and special eds" is fact.
    "Conquest reads like a YJK book" is opinion, "Conquest focuses mainly on one character and is only 291 pages" is fact.

    I think part of the problem comes when a fact is used to support an opinion as in "Conquest seemed to me to be very YJK like. It's single-minded plotline and less than 300 page length are part of the problem"
    I try to remember to use words such as seemed like and to me but in a heated debate, these little niceties are sometime forgotten.
    But, and perhaps I'm giving some folks credit for a level of reading comprehension that they don't have, it really should be obvious which parts of my Conquest statement are opinions and which are facts even if I had said "Conquest was very YJK-like in it's single-minded plot and short length" The single plot and length are examples of facts, that this should make the book YJK like is obviously an opinion.
    The somewhat amusing part of all this is that my post of something similar to "Conquest seemed to me to be very YJK like. It's single-minded plotline and less than 300 page length are part of the problem" was greeted with (paraphrasing) "Oh yeah? Well that's just your opinion!" To which I wanted to pat the poster on the head and say "yes, dear, that's what 'seems like' usually means" and send a letter of condolences and commiseration to his/her high school English teachers.


    I agree that topics titled like "Ban KJA" are rude and perhaps the poster's intent would be better served with a title like "I don't like KJA and hope he doesn't write any more books" or "Does anyone else not like KJA?"
    Unfortunately rudeness seems to be the order of the day in the real world (from TV shows like The Weakest Link to obnoxious bumper stickers) and too many young people (gosh I hope it's not mature adults) seem to think anything and everything is allowable.

    BTW, Good posts by barnsthefatjedi, Wildwookiee and eaglejedi
    IMHO :)
  9. Destiny_Skywalker Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2000
    star 3
    barnsthefatjedi: "And I salute anyone with the guts to admit that they think she is a crap writer."

    We don't all hate her. I personally loved Children of the Jedi. Does that mean I don't have "the guts" to admit I really truly hate her? This is a huge board, with several different opinions. Not to mention there are several authors that come to these boards for feedback and ideas. We are obviously going to disagree on a lot of things, but I think neimoidian_85 was trying to say that we seem to have forgotten to respect each other and the authors on these boards.

    There are a few authors that I really don't care all that much for. If they show up on these boards I'm not gonna go run into that thread and gush about how much I loved their books... I'll probably just stay out of it. I'm not gonna run up to them and yell, "YOU SUCK!" either. I respect the fact that they put a lot of work and time into writing these books, and that they are better writers than I am. So until LFL contacts you, I don't think anyone has the right to be running around bashing these authors as badly as people have been. It's a matter of respect, which is something a lot of people on this board are lacking.
  10. Bogga Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 1998
    star 4
    I still think suncrusherX said it best with: "I think there is an immature trend throughout the entire internet that comes from today's society"

    There's just too many people who feel the need to post a thread that makes a simple statement in opposition to many people's opinions just to stir up controversy. Then when their thread gets tons of responses, they somehow think they're popular or something. Usually these threads have little to no merit with no reason for the opinion given. It's the classic 'do something bad to get attention' deal. Now it has come online and into a very accessible place: forums. It's definitely not just here, it's in all forums, specifically bigger ones.
  11. Aldaric_Brandl Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 31, 2000
    star 3
    It just seems to me sometimes that people have lost their sense of humour...all too often, innocuous statements lead to flames simply because someone insists on taking statements seriously. I agree that posts like "<insert name of writer> sucks big time" are pretty immature not to mention rude. However, I feel that if everyone kept their sense of humour, much of this could be resolved. If people saw the light and decided to boycott these posts, they'd soon slip to the rear pages.

    Just my two cents worth. Have a Moffalicious day :)
  12. NitpickerFlamerAlert Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2001
    Bogga brought up a good point the kind of people he describes are as of follows:

    Jerks

    Evil Clowns

    L'Enfant Provocateur

    Rebel Without a Clue

    trollers

    plus many many more, that will knock down that either try to spread discontent, or knock down those that do show Civility in the forums. Hate is a flame no matter how you look at it(which is why star wars, the human rights activists and others condemn hate), and Gushing however immature or lame it seems to one of the above types, still is not flametory in the least. It's one thing to not like something but to hate, that means you are not respecting the person as a human being. Not sure were some people are born, but we are not all neanderthals who go around around bashing people with clubs cuase we didn't like something. You must show a person the same respect you, your self would want, and if hatred is something you desire, I really worry for you pscycological wellfare.

    Someone once said, I'm paraphrasing, Love the person, even if you don't love what they do. May have come from the bible, and it's good proverb, and a good lesson to learn. Hate just leads to suffering, and people do get hurt by it. Love and gushing might annoy people but it useally never leads to murder or death. Hate always causes problems, and is always a dark path, one must not follow. I hope my post brings up some thoughts, and anyone cares to discuss further, the ideas I put forward, go ahead.
  13. neimoidian_85 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 1999
    star 4
    That was a good page.

    How long has it been around?
  14. barnsthefatjedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2001
    star 5
    Thank you, Dewlanna Solo. I am glad that you are open-minded enough to see the sense in criticism :)

    'Does that mean I don't have "the guts" to admit I really truly hate her?'

    No, you have misinterpretted that quote. In no way am I suggesting that you are in someway a coward for liking Barbara Hambley's work. And why do people always assume that people hate the author? I don't hate Barbara Hambly; I don't know her, for all I know, she may be a very nice person. I don't hate her I hate her books!!! Can you not see the difference? Many people seem to over-look this and it causes them to somehow feel that I or anyone who shares my opinion is somehow being rude. No offense, but that is absolute crap!

    And I am sorry, but I feel that your "You couldn't do any better" arguement is simply irrelevant. So what if I couldn't do any better? Does that mean I have to like her work? Think of a film that you didn't like. No, I'm sorry, you can't feel that way because you couldn't make a better movie. Nonsense!

    Bogga, I too have noticed such people. The Jedi Hater Front in the EUC is a perfect example. But these are minority trolls who have no interest in intelligent discussion. I hope you are not suggesting that anyone who wishes to criticise is just out to cause trouble. If so, I'm afraid you are sadly mistaken.

    Aldaric, I agree. Posts w/o explanations are not good for discussion. Please read my above posts. We are going round in circles.

    NitpickerFlamerAlert: 'Hate is a flame no matter how you look at it'

    Okay, hate is hyperbole to emphasise a point. It doesn't mean that the person literally hates whatever they are talking about. I refuse to remake my point about how many of you seem to automatically assume that a criticism is a personal attack on the author as a human being.

    What is the big problem with people criticising the EU and being negative towards it? I for one will continue to do so as it is my right, and I am wise enough to realise that it is not damaging the boards in the slightest.

    I think we should deal with the real problem here. As I see it, you don't all have a problem with negativity (which criticism is), you just don't like the way in which SOME people go about doing it. In other words, you're just moaning about trolls, so this really belongs in communications, not lit. If someone trolls and flames you, report them to Admin, but don't think you have some kind of right to flame them back. If you do, then you are equally a troll and you both deserve to be banned.

    People can bash without being trolls. If you can't see this, please open your mind.
  15. Destiny_Skywalker Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2000
    star 3
    barns you missed my point. It was more the respect issue. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, yes, but some people throw that around too much.

    I understand that you dislike her work, not her, so don't talk down to me and treat me like an idiot. My point was that if Barbara Hambly came in here, would you go in and say, "I hate your books"? If so, that is flat out rude. Having these authors come in and post is a PRIVLEDGE, not a RIGHT. If they see how rude we are, even to other authors, they will not want to come. Mike Stackpole got angry that people insisted that his books "fixed" some "mistakes" that Bob Salvatore made.

    A lot of this is similar to the problem with The Phantom Edit. Some people simply decide they don't like a particular book because of the way it turned out, which I understand. If someone writes one thing that you disagree with (perhaps Mara Jade should be blonde, not red-haired?), are you going to swear off that story and run around claiming it sucks because of one small detail?

    The problem is that a lot of people seem to be coming in here to be arguementative, and seem to not respect other opinions. Sure they can state that they dislike something, but when someone posts something like, "Ban Barbara Hambly" it invites a lot of hostility, and is most likely going to immediately dissolve into an arguement, where people begin to hate each other because of a small difference in opinion. In here it seems to be, "I'm right, you're not, you suck." THAT is what neimoidian_85 is talking about, not simple disagreements.
  16. NitpickerFlamerAlert Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2001
    Some people lose the point of how strong hate is as a word, throwing it around for just anything can still be taken as rude or offensive by many people.

    I didn't want to do this but let me throw the definitions out and you tell me if it's can be used in a positive manner? even if you do find something positive in it, can you be certain someone out there isn't going to be offended by it?

    Main Entry: 1hate
    Pronunciation: 'hAt
    Function: noun
    Usage: often attributive
    Etymology: Middle English, from Old English hete; akin to Old High German haz hate, Greek kEdos care
    Date: before 12th century
    1 a : intense hostility and aversion usually deriving from fear, anger, or sense of injury b : extreme dislike or antipathy : LOATHING <had a great hate of hard work>
    2 : an object of hatred <a generation whose finest hate had been big business -- F. L. Paxson>

    Main Entry: 2hate
    Function: verb
    Inflected Form(s): hat·ed; hat·ing
    Date: before 12th century
    transitive senses
    1 : to feel extreme enmity toward <hates his country's enemies>
    2 : to have a strong aversion to : find very distasteful <hated to have to meet strangers> <hate hypocrisy>
    intransitive senses : to express or feel extreme enmity or active hostility
    - hat·er noun
    - hate one's guts : to hate someone with great intensity
    synonyms HATE, DETEST, ABHOR, ABOMINATE, LOATHE mean to feel strong aversion or intense dislike for. HATE implies an emotional aversion often coupled with enmity or malice <hated the enemy with a passion>. DETEST suggests violent antipathy <detests cowards>. ABHOR implies a deep often shuddering repugnance <a crime abhorred by all>. ABOMINATE suggests strong detestation and often moral condemnation <every society abominates incest>. LOATHE implies utter disgust and intolerance <loathed self-appointed moral guardians>.

    Even if you meant the books, sometimes it sounds as if people point it to the authors(maybe nonintentional but people will read it as such).

    "But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes." solomon

    "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer"solomon

    just using the word hate:
    "He that hateth dissembleth with his lips, and layeth up deceit within him" solomon.

    since hate really has no basis for use beyond Hating as the bible puts it "Sin"(or words synonymous to that.) maybe there are better words to use?

    Such as:

    dislike

    dissagreebable

    unpleasant

    aversion

    bad books

    disfavor

    distaste

    detestation

    disapproval

    dissatisfaction

    discontented

    not good

    yucky

    icky

    sucky

    etc.

    plenty of words that are far more civil, and much less rude, or less likely to be seen as rude when attached to ones personal oppinion. Words that when attached to a well thought out explaination, will probably sound less threatening or offensive to people that are in the forums, when explained in good detail.
  17. Wildwookiee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2001
    star 4
    I think that people are far to sensitive to vocabulary. I agree that people should not go out of thier way to offend one another, but I have no compassion to someone who becomes offended because someone did not use vernacular that they do not agree with. We are becomeing a global society of oversensitive zealots.
  18. barnsthefatjedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2001
    star 5
    How have I talked down at you or treated you like an idiot. Just because I refuted your arguement. I don't want to insult you, but you are imagining things

    Well, with respect to the authors, if they don't like people not liking there work then it's not my problem. It's an inevitability that they must deal with. True, we are extremely privilaged to have them post and communicate directly with fans, but that doesn't mean we should just lie to them and say we think their books are great when we really don't think that at all. Now by no means does that mean we should be rude and launch an attack on them. If they are users (and I don't believe Barbara Hambly is) then they should be treated with the same respect as everyone else.

    Perhaps the 'Ban Barbara Hambly' thread is a bit OTT and being unecessarily rude. But nemoidien_85 is just complaining because he doesn't like 'negative crap'. I don't care if he doesn't like it because he is being unreasonable, IMO.

    As for the Alan Dean Foster thread, there is no immaturity, flaming or trolling there. So why does he cite it? Purely because it is negative discussion. Well, to be quite frank if you don't like it, don't enter it, but don't start bitching at us just because we share a different opinion to you.

    I think the very nature of this thread is negative, so perhaps he should have thought before complaining about all the negativity, since this only adds to it. BTW, no offense to nemoidien_85; I am just defending my viewpoint.
  19. Bogga Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 1998
    star 4
    I'm definitely not saying that ALL the people whom have complaints or choose to criticize the authors are blatant trolls or anyone of that sort, however some of them definitely are. I think a lot of the others simply don't express their 'dislike' in the best taste and perhaps they don't even notice it.
  20. barnsthefatjedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2001
    star 5
    OK, I agree with you, and what you say is fair enough :D

    As for expressing a dislike in the best taste, I must agree with Wildwookie. Perhaps they are only trying to be humorous, but some people can be over-sensitive and regard it in an insulting manner, which it is not intended to be.
  21. Knight1192 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2000
    star 6
    Well, I do remember when I'd seemingly find a million threads on the first page I'd want to reply to. Naturally it wasn't that many, but you get the point. Now I, lucky if it's more than three or four.

    We'll always have clubs and folks saying how much this author or that one sucks. And I'll probably always be saying how some are being hypocrites for saying they totally agree when just weeks before they were saying how great they were. It's stuff we really can't get rid of.
  22. Adi_Gallia_9 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2001
    star 5
    I must agree with Barns. Criticism is warrented. People disagree; that's why we have so many wars and tradegy in the real world. Negativity is a part of life and as long as it is expressed in a logical, intelligent and polite manner, is there anything wrong with it? Someone merely has a different opinion; that is the way this world works. Outright hatred and flmaing without is unacceapteable however. That is merely immature and the sign of an insecure person who needs to force their opinions on others.

    I do agree though that people should try to be more careful with how they phrase things. I have seen many posts taken out of context because of the poor choice of vocabulary. Intelligent posts and intelligent diction allow for intelligent discussions. What fun would it be if everyone agreed on everything? We do need differing opinions, but they should also be expressed in a reasonable manner.

    Barns is a good example of this. He doesn't like all aspects of the EU, but who does? We all have things that we wish could be diffferent. He expresses what he dislikes about the EU in a polite manner and, most importantly, he backs himself up with examples. I have found that even when I do not agree with him, it is still a pleasure to discuss things with him because he respects my opinions. And that is the heart of this post. We need to respect each other more. I've seen flamers and trolls and they will always be around, but I've also seen people I disagree with but who are considerate and respectful. If we could all be more like the later, the discussions could be much more enjoyable for everyone involved.
  23. neimoidian_85 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 1999
    star 4
    I guess I'm just a forum fart that likes the days when there was real discussion. Thise days were freat......
  24. Bogga Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 1998
    star 4
    I actually feel like I'm in a position very similar to Knight1192. I actually stopped posting here (not that I post that often anyhow) for a couple months simply because there were no threads that seemed to have anything interesting being discussed within them. There were just a bunch of threads that couldn't possibly have much to discuss like "Could <insert character name> beat <insert other character> in a fight?". There's just nothing to say to that. I'm interested in speculation, observations and the analysis of recent novels, not petty complaints about writing styles or threads meant to only bash a certain author. And I can post in only so many "what's your favorite <insert Star Wars related noun>?" threads.
  25. jastermereel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 1998
    star 4
    i personaly don't understand why we need "In my opinion"...or "IMHO" infront of every statement of an obvious opinion we make...this is a forum...we are talking about our opinions and our ideas...EVERYTHING is an opinion...why not just add an extra page to the entry to the forums completely blank except for the phrase "In my opinion..."...and then a link to the next page...really people...i'll admit...this post is my opinion......but so is everybody elses...and no body seems to care about a lack of admiting that these statements are indeed opinions...heck...even neimoidian_85...you who began this topic didn't use these magic words in your post...its your opinion that: "This board has seemed to have just died"...or is it just my opinion that that is your opinion and not indeed actual fact......sorry if i sound a little rabid...but IMHO, this thread just seems a little pointless its self............i for one come to this forum to relax a bit...occasionaly to have a nice civilized argument/dispute...but not to flame...and obviously everything i type...unless a source of some sort is cited in the post...is opinion until shown otherwise......think about it...what other sort of statement could "Hambly sucks" be if not opinion?...there is no way to back it up as fact...not in the meaning intended at least......it can be nothing but an opinion...and so branding it as such with a little header seems more than a little redundant.........by the way...that was opinion as well...just to make sure everyone knows...(btw...that last statement wasn't a fact either as despite my statments before...not "everyone" may find out...so that can't be really considered fact can it now......please don't flame me you splitters of hairs and mincers of words)


    BTW...it is my opinion...repeat...it is my opinion...that i apparantly share with several others that this board isn't as good as it once was...and it has indeed slipped...but i don't blame that on a lack of "politeness"...but instead just a general decline in the interest in discusion topics, an increase in junk topics, and just a general lack of enthusiasm......which, i myself admit to having...
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