Yoda dealing in absolutes?!

Only a Sith deals in absolutes - Kenobi to Vader.

Yoda: Do or do not.
There is no try.



Thoughts?

 

Different context. Obi-Wan is responding to Anakin's ultimatum of "if you're not with me, then you're my enemy". (We don't need to get into who Lucas was comparing the Sith to in the real world. Leave that for PT discussion. )

Yoda is talking about Luke's self-doubt, and his doubt about the nature of the Force.

"I, I don't believe it."

"That is why you fail."

 

Yep, Yoda deals in a lot of absolutes with Luke, thats another example of why Obi-Wans line doesnt make a lot of sense. And Obi-Wans line is an absolute in itself, and not absolutely correct because Palps said a lot of things that werent absolute.

 

Only a Sith deals in absolutes is not the same as a sith only deals in absolutes

 

Absolutely.






I know its a throw away line that contributes nothing to the story, but I cant help feeling that Lucas specifically put it in just to tweak/annoy the fan base.

Any one else feel that way ?

 

No.



Luke was not being open minded enough to allow the force to flow through him. He was stuck in his own view of the way things work under normal physics. Yoda was simply trying to show him a new way of thinking, and how not to think.

 

No Yoda is not being absolute, but everyone is trying to forcee the issue of being absolute onto Yoda and the Jedi when they try to catch them in oxymorons.

 

Very true.

On the idea of the "absolutes" line, a lot of people say that Lucas just didn't know what he was talking about when he wrote that and he didn't realize he was writing an oxymoron. They then try to paint that as being one of the reasons he's an awful writer of dialogue. Lucas may not have intended it to be an oxymoron and he may have written it poorly in that context, but I think it shows a lot about Obi-Wan the character and I happen to disagree with the idea that it was a bad line. The whole idea of the transition between Episode III and Episode IV is that the Jedi realize that they were wrong in many regards and that the two main survivors, Yoda and Obi-Wan, need to learn the true way of the Force, mostly from Qui-Gon.

Even though they had nineteen years of study time under Qui-Gon, the Jedi didn't learn their lessons on absolutes until the end of ROTJ. Obi-Wan deals in another absolute, IMO, when he tells Luke that he basically either has to kill Vader or they lose. He leaves no room for a redemption. When Anakin is a ghost at the end and Obi-Wan is beaming with pride, to me that shows that he's learned his lesson on dealing in absolutes like that.

I think I just rambled and lost my point somewhere. If anyone finds it, please let me know.

 

I agree with this as well, I don't think Yoda was dealing in absolutes.

He was simply showing Luke what kind of mindset to have. To not doubt the power of the force, and realize that if he truly focuses his strength, he can do it. No person is ever going to tell you "okay, do this, but it's okay if you assume you cant."

Another example of this way of thinking is when Yoda tells him "Size matters not." Meaning all things in the Force can be thought of the same, regardless of it's level of intimidation. These two lines have the same kind of thought.

Darth Vader's "with me or against me" line is an absolute-it's not so much just a mindset as it is a way of viewing how things should be. An easy way to say it would be "It's my way or the highway..." That's not the same as "Believe in/don't doubt yourself and have confidence in your abilities."

 

Lucas may not have intended it to be an oxymoron and he may have written it poorly in that context, but I think it shows a lot about Obi-Wan the character and I happen to disagree with the idea that it was a bad line.

Interestingly, the original line from the script was :

OBI-WAN: Only a Sith Lord deals in absolutes. I will do what I must.


So Lucas did tinker with the line afterwards, and it wasnt a mistake. However, bottom line, that statement is just plain FALSE. Beings other than Sith can deal in absolutes too, ie George "its my movie" Lucas.

So Lucas knowingly and after consideration, either put in a very poor choice of words, or he just did it to tweak the fanbase.

 

If Yoda was to deal in absolutes, when Luke says he cannot kill his father, Yoda would see Luke as a threat then, and kill him.

The whole "Do or do not, there is no try" is all about having faith in the force, because Luke will never be able to progress if he doesn't believe in his powers. If he only trys, theres room to fail. However, if he does... he does.

 

I think what lucas means about Anakin is that he views things in black and white, either his way or no one's way; He doesn't view in between. Do or Do not is somewhat of an idea about believing, and believing in yourself to accomplish something that is out of your nature like the force and believing in it. It's very Daoist in that people and/or luke cannot be in doubt his whole life, he cannot live in limbo. People have to make choices, and yoda being a wise man is trying to lead him into the right path, a path that is scary but truly fulfilling because like Qui Gon says in one of the tone poems, "I will be a hard life, one without remorse, one without regret, a path will be placed before you, the choice is yours alone, do what you think you cannot do, and you will find out who you are." It's being able to accept the challenge, believing in the force, oneself, entering a realm that is gray(That's why Yoda tells us that it's a difficult time for Luke because he will be tempted by the dark side; the gray can get us to have temptation, but it is all about "Control, control, you must learn control")Life is Gray," accept it Yoda is saying, move on your journey against the cloudy gray and make sure you stay balanced, but you have to do it in order to truly understand it, but do it in a reasonable manner)
I think what Lucas means about Sith's and Absolutes are where people are brainwashed into an ideology in which they can only think in terms of black and white. Again, this is hard to explain sometimes because these are huge questions and huge human conditions.
It comes down to people who live on fear, anger, aggression who isolate themselves and people who live on compassion, love, peace and understand the nature of what it takes to be a good person. Was this an absolute?
Are there absolutes in life?
It is confusing why he said only sith's deal in absolutes, but I think we know what he means about that if we truly look down into ourselves, the characters and what they do. Well, peace out.

P.S. Sorry if this turned into a moral and ethical discussion, but hey, this is the territory.

 

Interesting that the whole Jedi Philosophy is based on absolutes.

Yoda treated Vader like Vader treated Kenobi, only he was more absolute.

 

Well, first off, let's realize that Obi-Wan was the one speaking to Vader when he says "Only Sith deal in absolutes." And that is kind of an absolute statement, itself. If we don't read this as hypocrisy (and I do not think we ought to), then that makes it a paradox, a koan intended to shock Anakin out of certitude. It fails.

Yoda's statement, "Do, or do not. There is no 'try'," is given in a different situation, to describe to Luke a mental stance appropriate for allowing himself to let go of conscious disbelief, or reservations. This also fails, at the time.

To understand Obi-Wan's meaning, one must consider the situation and contex. He says what he does in reply to Vader's saying, "If you are not with me, you are my enemy." Vader is leaving no grey area, no room for compromise, in his thinking. He is unable to consider that a different point of view might also be equally true.

"You are going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly upon your point of view," Obi-Wan tells Luke. This is precisely the same teaching that Qui-Gon tried to give to Anakin, admonishing him, "Be mindful; Your focus determines your reality."

This is also they key to Yoda's instruction: "Do, or do not." It is about choosing that focus which aligns reality with success. The attempt should be made in expectation of success.

 

And what about Yoda's literal absolutes?

It was clear that he was thinking in black and white regarding the Sith when he instructed Kenobi to kill Vader.

 

To understand Obi-Wan's meaning, one must consider the situation and contex. He says what he does in reply to Vader's saying, "If you are not with me, you are my enemy." Vader is leaving no grey area, no room for compromise, in his thinking. He is unable to consider that a different point of view might also be equally true.


Considering the situation, Obi-Wan should have said something different, something like "No Anakin, Im your friend", instead of a reply that would anger Anakin.

 

Now that you mention it, I do agree, that Obi-Wan could have definately tried much harder to turn Anakin back to good. Padme did really try, but it seemed Obi-Wan kind of just assumed it's "too late."

 

These posts just seem ridiculous. Obi Wan says something while confronting Anakin who just turned against him and everyone decides that the line is a pure definition of what it means to be a Sith instead of a Jedi. The only thing I really remember about the line is the conservative republicans freaking out because they thought the line was put in the movie to be a shot at Bush and the Iraq war (just as Jedi use "blue" light sabers and sith use "red" light sabers a commentarty on the red and blue states in the last election).

The line is to be read in context of the conversation going on with Anakin turning on his best friend Obi Wan, his decision to change everything he believed in unconditionally without remorse was the "absolute" aspect of his thinking that indicated he had been influenced by the dark side and was a sith.


From what I have read, if Obi Wan went up to the bar and said "I only drink dark beer" someone on here would start screaming he was a sith.

 

The line is to be read in context of the conversation going on with Anakin turning on his best friend Obi Wan, his decision to change everything he believed in unconditionally without remorse was the "absolute" aspect of his thinking that indicated he had been influenced by the dark side and was a sith.

Even reading in its context, its a poor line, considering all the other good logical possibilities.


From what I have read, if Obi Wan went up to the bar and said "I only drink dark beer" someone on here would start screaming he was a sith.

Yeah, if Obi-Wan had said to Anakin, "only a Sith drinks dark beer" that would have been just as poor as the line as it stands.

 

Agreed. Why can't people understand that the PT wasn't telling us that what the Jedi did was good. They didn't tell us that Anakin was good. They were showing how not to do things. The line is clever writing. "Only a Sith deals in absolutes," is either a paradox or an oxymoron. Either way that makes it more complex. This Lucas is not spoonfeeding us and letting us make the decisions.

Great post! Although I don't know if the red and blue lightsabers were meant to be thought of that way its easy to see how they are. Everything going on in the PT's government themes is going on in the real world (and specifically the U.S.)

Also, with the beer thing. "I only drink dark beer" means that someone has specifically chosen to drink dark beer because of a preference in taste. "If you're not with me, then you're my enemy," means that if your not "A" then your "B." That's an inccorect way of thinking because there could be C,D and Z. It reflects that Anakin hasn't thought long and hard about Obi-Wan being an enemy, but that if he won't do this then he is an enemy. Its a problem many religious fanaticals have and point well made in these movies.

 

If you're not with me, then you're my enemy," means that if your not "A" then your "B." That's an inccorect way of thinking because there could be C,D and Z.

So then Obi-Wan responds with "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" meaning that no one other than a Sith can do that.

 

I know you smiley faced, but that?s exactly my point. Obi-Wan is becoming Sith-like. That whole fight between them was a fight, not a confrontation. That's what Yoda and Kenobi learned after their defeats. They were on the offensive and not the defensive. Palpatine managed to make them think the opposite of how they thought before without them realizing it. That's something Lucas is trying to warn us of. It's happening now. Conservatives used to believe that America can not take care of everybody. That protecting foreign nations would stretch our pocket book too thin and cost us lives we didn't want to loose. That's actually exactly what George Bush ran on in 2000. But now, after 9/11 (similar to the Clone Wars really) they think the opposite and will vehemently defend their policies. They now believe America has to police the world to keep America safe. They don't care how long or how much money it will cost (McCain said he didn't care if we were in Iraq for one hundred years). I mean this is completely opposite of how they used to think, but they all truly believe it now. The terrorists (Palpatine) have made them stray away from their ideals in order to keep themselves safe and in power. Lucas didn't mean for that specifically to be reflected in the movies, but it is what's happening now. Obi-Wan thinks he's fighting for what's righteous and Jedi-like, but he's actually doing the opposite and that's what that line explains. This dialogue is more complex then most people give it credit for.

 

Obi-Wan was not becoming Sith-like. In fact, he fought defensively throughout the battle.

 

O.K. I've thought long and hard about this and you're right. He did act defensively throughout. However, I still defend everything I said before I just can't include Obi-Wan in with it. He really did just come there to confront Anakin and had to defend Padme. You're right. Thanks for keeping me always thinking.

 

This is one of the things that bothers me the most about ROTS. It is another example of Lucas ignoring the CT. In ROTJ, both Obi-Wan and Vader acknowledged Obi-Wan's attempt to try and turn Vader back to the light side.