Yoda dealing in absolutes?!

I think Obi-Wan realized that he was lost, and that at the moment after a little talking that Anakin was killed by Vader, especialy after cutting off Mace's hand and killing hundreds (I'd assume it was) of Jedi in the Temple.

 

But then what was Vader's basis for, "Obi-Wan once thought as you do. You don't know the power of the dark side of the force.". If Obi-Wan never tried to turn Vader in ROTS, then what is the basis for this statement?

 

But he did try to turn him, however little it may be. I don't think if I was in Kenobi's place I would have done different. I try to be realistic about things like that. Sometimes people just won;t change.

 

....I guess...But I still would kinda think that if someone was confused about what is really going on, or misinterpreting certain things that were happening (in this case, Anakin's point of view of the Jedi being evil, and wanting to overthrow the senate and assassinate palpatine and all that) I would at least try to help them "see the light", by explaining to them how things really are-not only for everyone else's benefit, but for the person's own welfare as well. I guess I just didn't feel obi-wan had done...enough, for lack of a better word. I would try to help that person acknowledge the possibility that their point of view CAN be mistaken.



But guess I can't blame him for saying all he did, especially after knowing all of the Jedi Anakin has killed...

 

I have to say Obi Wan did a pretty crappy job of trying to persuade Anakin back to the light side in ROTS, imo he doesn't try hard enough. Unlike Padme who died with her belief that there was still good in Anakin and Luke who almost dies in the attempt in ROTJ trying to get Anakin back to the light side.

I don't think that Obi Wan deep down is truly never convinced that Anakin can ever redeem himself. Hence why he says than "You are lost" to Anakin ROTS and also after when Luke says that he can't kill Vader in ROTJ, Obi Wan says "Then the Emperor has truly won."

Not to mention all the times that he and Yoda have lied to Luke about the whole Anakin/vader thing.

 

ONE TIME. It was ONE TIME. Sheesh.

 

I don't think he did a crappy job trying to convert Anakin. He didn't make any attempt to do so. This is another example of the PT not matching up with the CT.

 

Of course he didn't make any attempt to do so. He was angry. The Jedi learned from their mistakes in the CT, which is why they seem so all-knowing in those films. In these films, the dark side has clouded the minds and they're not thinking correctly. That was one of the points of the movie. You can't fault that film for doing that unless you think it was poorly done. But poorly done or not, that's the story. The Jedi screwed up and then they fixed their mistakes 20 years later. If you don't like that story fine, but don't keep saying it was a bad job by Obi-Wan. That's how his character reacted, for better or worse.

 

That doesn't explain Vader's response to Luke in ROTJ about Vader's redemption, "Obi-Wan once thought as you do. You don't know the power of the dark side." Where is the basis for this comment if Obi-Wan never attempted to try and convert or redeem Vader.

 

Some of the ROTS dialogue implies that Obi-Wan still thinks it's possible Anakin might back down. That's really all we have to work with.

 

I wish I joined this discussion when everybody was here. It always bothered me that Lucas wrote Obi-Wan to say "Only a Sith deals in absolutes." I never got on the anti-JarJar or anti-JakeLloyd bandwagons because, unlike many-many fans, I understood their places in the SW Universe. JarJar is just child-oriented comic relief. We didn't mind C-3PO being that in the OT* (maybe b/c most of us were young kids when we first saw it), but cannot get past it in the PT**. As for Anakin, he had to be a kid at sometime. Okay, I had to get that off my chest (because this is my very first post or blog of any kind). I realize I digress (plus it's so nine-years-ago to bring that junk up anyway).

Back to the matter at hand. Lucas must be surrounded by a bunch of 'yes men', too afraid to correct him because as soon as I saw ROTS (5/19/05@12:01am) and heard Obi-Wan say that short-sighted line, I immediately remembered Yoda saying to Luke, "Do or do not, there is no try." Because Lucas (or those working for him) did not have the foresight (or the courage to speak up) and notice this inconsistany, Obi-Wan (a most awesome SW character) has to be the scapegoat on this. The only way to RetCon*** this is to say Obi-Wan was wrong. Besides, as some have stated on this board, Yoda says the Jedi of the PT era were clouded by arrogance anyway.

Speaking of RetCons, keep in mind ROTS is one big RetCon. Heck, all three PT movies are one giant RetCon all from Old Ben stating he served with Luke's father during something called the Clone Wars. Unlike the old "Planet of the Apes" movies, there is no political undertone. There is no need to get overly philosophical and policital about the PT movies. It's just one big RetCon ... no political or philosophical agenda, just one huge RetCon.

*OT = Original Trilogy
**PT = Prequel Trilogy
***RetCon = Retrofitted for Continuity.

 

But Vader isn't privy to Obi-Wan's thoughts. Why did Vader think that Obi-Wan once thought as Luke did? There were no express manifestation of Obi-Wan expressing this view to Vader or attempting to so turn Vader to give a basis for this statement.

 

Anakin doesn't need to be privy to Obi-Wan's thoughts. Obi-Wan says "it's over" as though Anakin should accept it.

 

Vader was probably referring to Mustar when Obi-Wan began by trying to get Anakin to see reason. Admittedly Obi-Wan did a very poor job at trying to redeem his 'brother' - it seemed more like he was trying to redeem Dooku or some acquaintance rather than Anakin who he'd known all his life and he gave up way too quick as well in light of that. But Vader of the OT had to come about, so Obi-Wan had to get the short shrift on reality a little bit.

But I do think that Obi-Wan's comment and action were ironic..."only the Sith deal in absolutes" he says, then he immediately deals in absolutes when he draws his lightsaber having determined that Anakin is absolutely a Sith.

 

Yoda is trying to motivate Luke to use the Force wisely, but I think that it was a good question.

 

Because Padme said: "He wants to help you."

 

Maybe Vader is just using Obi-wan's name to hide the fact that it was really Padme, Luke's mom who once thought as he did. Vader is too ashamed to admit that to Luke because it reminded him of the day he choked her to death and that he knew that Luke would hate him completely if he found out. If Obi-wan really believed as Luke did that Vader would give up the Dark Side, than Vader would not be in that black armored bio-suit nor would he continue obeying the Emperor.

 

Personally I think Yoda's comment was intended to be about focus and eliminating self doubt, rather than a literal statement. In a number of other instances, though, the Jedi are hypocrites.

 

All Yoda is saying to Luke is "Either you lift up the ship or don't do it at all".

That sounds like a literal statement to me.

 

Reminds me of "trying to sit down", as in hovering in a half/half position - your legs will hurt in no time; much unlike if you just sat down

 

Only a complete idiot would think that people never try to do things and fail. Yoda had failed to destroy Sidious despite his best intentions. He's talking about mindset. Don't go into something at all if you have doubts about whether you'll succeed. It'll only increase your chance of failure. If you're going to attempt something, set the doubt aside.

 

The Jedi were wrong. They were arrogant hypocrites. Obi Wan wasn't acting like a friend in that scene he was just being a jerk. Anakin would not have destroyed them if they had been right. He may not have done it consciously, or in the way everyone expected, but he brought balance to the force. Yoda and the others were responsible for mucking it all up to begin with. Luke followed his heart and put love first, and redeemed his father. Luke wouldn't have been able to beat Palpatine otherwise. He would have killed Vader and then been destroyed or turned.

 

Context. Mother in Laws. Wives.

I've said enough.....