Yoda gave bad advice to Anakin in the Temple?

the jedi were worried anakin would not be able to follow the code, and that anakin had alot of fear in him

 

I haven't read all of the posts and I'm sorry if this has already been said. I'm just back from seeing the film again and I got the impression that Yoda's advice was based on reaching conclusions when trying to predict the future.

 

How do they know he is a walking miracle? How do they know that he is the chosen one? I don't think they disbelieved, thyey just did not know. They were taking Shmi at her word and since only Qui-Gon had met her, how could they form any real opinion. Qui-Gon believed it, but even he was not a hundred percent sure of what it meant. Caution seems to be how they approached it and that seemed logical. Not to mention that he was far older than any one they had trained before and they all believed that was a bad idea. Turns out they were right.

 

Obi_Frans, That was not in the movie. Only in a book. The text thereof could be subject to editing, or a different interpretation. Perhaps, No attachments to things...or whatever. For one reason or another, Lucas chose to not have it in the movie, so it not canon.

Actually it sort of is canon... I feel like I've been having the canon debate in 10 different threads:

"Canon refers to an authoritative list of books that the Lucas Licensing editors consider an authentic part of the official Star Wars history. Our goal is to present a continuous and unified history of the Star Wars galaxy, insofar as that history does not conflict with, or undermine the meaning of Mr. Lucas's Star Wars saga of films and screenplays. Things that Lucas Licensing does not consider official parts of the continuous Star Wars history show an Infinities logo or are contained in Star Wars Tales. Everything else is considered canon.

The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them.

Which brings us to the often-asked question: Just what is Star Wars canon, and what is not? The one sure answer: The Star Wars Trilogy Special Edition -- the three films themselves as executive-produced, and in the case of Star Wars written and directed, by George Lucas, are canon. Coming in a close second we have the authorised adaptations of the three films: the novels, radio dramas, and comics."

-Steve Sansweet, Preface to the "Star Wars Encyclopedia"

 

The thing is Anakin did not let go. He now loved and was attached to Luke. He would save Luke... But the point that people are supposed to get, he will no longer do it at all costs - Because he is now a balanced individual - a person who has shown Luke Balance and vice versa.


Anakin loves Luke, but he's not attached to him. You're missing the fundamental message that Lucas is saying. By giving up attachments, but having love and compassion for others, does one truly find balance within himself. Anakin lets go of himself, of his attachments, of his power, his lust for greed, Palpatine and everything to save a person. The end result is that Anakin has no attachments now. He has love. Lots of it. But no attachments.

If you disagree with, then you disagree with the story and miss the moral of the lesson. The Jedi Code is still in place in the OT. The only difference is that Obi-wan has to talk Yoda into training Luke, which comes as a result of him being much like Anakin.

 

Like the innkeeper of the New Testament, Mace and Yoda are ready to show him the door at the Council meeting during the Phantom Menace. Yoda's, "Fear leads to..." ranting really shows how out of touch the Jedi were at that time.

True. They were afraid of him, afraid of his powers, of what he could become. Palpatine was right about that!

Fear leads to... You know what.

 

It doesn't matter, it happened, thats not the important question anyway.

What I really want to know is if yoda gave anakin the advice because it was what he thought it was right, or if he just said it because it was the code, or if he thought anakin needed to hear it. I wonder if he even thought it was good advice?

 

I beleive I'm right with Jedi Queen and Dago Dweller a close 2nd...



by the way.. When are these mods going to allow to new threads??

I have the best thread ready to post....

 

speaking of love and attachment..

Anyone think Lucas will alter Luke
s training in ESB to include a lesson from Yoda about attachment?

 

Nope, he already does explain it to him well enough.

 

"True. They were afraid of him, afraid of his powers, of what he could become. Palpatine was right about that!

Fear leads to... You know what."

they werent afaid of anakin OR his powers. what they were apprehensive of, was what might happen if anakin couldnt control his emotions. he was fearful, attached, and they knew it would be hard for him to adapt to the life of a jedi. they would be apprehensive of anyone in anakin's position, because a fearful person with power, is a dangerous person indeed.

 

Many people have been saying around lately that the Jedi Master is an hypocrite, since Yoda told Anakin to accept the death of the people he cared for while the little green fella learned to become immortal...

Well, guess what folks.... he didn't learn to become immortal at all... in order to become a force ghost, you gotta be dead!!!!


;p

 

Existence in the afterlife is considered immortality as well. Actually one could argue that the afterlife goes on forever while the physical plane will someday end. That is the ultimate immortality. It is considered eternal life.

 

Darth Sinister,

Are you saying that Anakin has no attachment with Luke as him being Luke's father at the end of RoTJ?

All,

If the Code is still in place at the end of Ep. 6, then what part of it has been amended? Can Luke get married? Can he feel love? Can Force User Leia marry Han?

The answer is definitely YES, especially with Leia. After the second Death Star explodes, she feels that Luke is alive with the Force, and then gives Solo a big sloppy kiss. Which is definitely an attachment. I don't remember Luminaria kissing, or any Jedi before Anakin for that matter.

The Jedi were stuck in their ways before The Phantom Menace. They wouldn't listen. The Force actually had to conceive someone out of nothing to bring change about. Then when the Council is presented with this gift of Anakin, Yoda and Mace get all "Phantom"-eyed.

 

^anakin already had his own set of problems, even at that young age.

"i cant do it mom i just cant do it"
"dont look back"

"i will learn to stop people from dying"

so you see, anakin wasnt the "perfect gift" that you paint him to be.

and the jedi do love. they love one another, and the people they protect. its a different love, one that uses rationality, over emotion. now granted the jedi were wrong to forbid following in love, but they did t for a good reason. they knew that with that type of love, it is nearly impossible to avoid an attachment (which i, like the jedi, hold to be different then love), hence why marriage was forbidden.

in the end, we learn that anakin could have fallen in love with padme, if he had selflessly loved her, but instead his love turned into attachment, which turned into posession. his fear turned his love into something ugly, and the jedi knew this was a real danger with falling love.

 

The answer is definitely YES, especially with Leia. After the second Death Star explodes, she feels that Luke is alive with the Force, and then gives Solo a big sloppy kiss. Which is definitely an attachment.

1) Leia isn't even a Jedi
2) Kissing someone is an expression of love (or lust), and as has been said before; love = NOT attachment

Anakins own speech is the key here

"Attachment is, forbidden. Compassion, which i would define as - unconditional love, is central to a Jedis life"

then what part of it has been amended? Can Luke get married? Can he feel love? Can Force User Leia marry Han?

The age-limit has probably been thrown out the window.

You're still not understanding that love = not attachment, here's a GL quote about the very thing itself:

"They're not supposed to form attachments. They can love people- in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith. But they can't form attachments. So what all these movies are about is: greed. Greed is a source of pain and suffering for everybody. And the ultimate state of greed is the desire to cheat death."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith, page 213

Are you saying that Anakin has no attachment with Luke as him being Luke's father at the end of RoTJ?

Nope, he loves him; most likely unconditionally since he gives his life for him.

And that's a beautiful thing, but he's not attached to him - which is a healthy thing.

Obi_Frans, That was not in the movie. Only in a book. The text thereof could be subject to editing, or a different interpretation. Perhaps, No attachments to things...or whatever. For one reason or another, Lucas chose to not have it in the movie, so it not canon.

"Yes, yes - to RS77, you listen!"

- O_F

 

"Democracy?! Palpatines rule is Democratic"

I don't know what to say to that except I guess Sids
manipulations fooled more than just Anakin lol.
Delusional!

 

Sure he was democratic. It's not his fault everyone was too afraid of him zapping them with force lightning to run against him. LOL.

 

Yankee lol, how true.
Isn't that how democracy works? If someone doesn't agree you
zap them with lightning til they do.
Poor Sids, he's so misunderstood

 

Anyone think Lucas will alter Luke?s training in ESB to include a lesson from Yoda about attachment?

An alteration isn?t necessary. It?s already there:

LUKE: I saw...I saw a city in the clouds.

YODA: Mmm. Friends you have there.

LUKE: They were in pain.

YODA: It is the future you see.

LUKE: Future? Will they die?

YODA: Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.

LUKE: I've got to go to them.

YODA: Decide you must how to serve them best. If you leave now, help
them you could. But you would destroy all for which they have fought
and suffered.

Luke fears losing his friends and without really knowing the outcome, automatically jumps to the conclusion that they may die and makes the decision to leave based on the fear of losing them. As Yoda basically says here, Luke runs the risks of leaving untrained/unprepared and ending up becoming a Sith, which is obviously a huge blow for the Rebellion and ?destroying? all that his friends have suffered for. The lesson is touched upon even more:

YODA: Luke! You must complete the training.

LUKE: I can't keep the vision out of my head. They're my friends. I've
got to help them.

YODA: You must not go!

LUKE: But Han and Leia will die if I don't.

BEN'S VOICE: You don't know that.

BEN: Even Yoda cannot see their fate.

LUKE: But I can help them! I feel the Force!

BEN: But you cannot control it. This is a dangerous time for you, when
you will be tempted by the dark side of the Force.

YODA: Yes, yes. To Obi-Wan you listen. The cave. Remember your failure
at the cave!

LUKE: But I've learned so much since then. Master Yoda, I promise to
return and finish what I've begun. You have my word.

BEN: It is you and your abilities the Emperor wants. That is why your
friends are made to suffer.

LUKE: And that is why I have to go.

BEN: Luke, I don't want to lose you to the Emperor the way I lost
Vader.

LUKE: You won't.

YODA: Stopped they must be. On this depends. Only a fully trained Jedi
Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor.
If you end your training now, if you choose the quick and easy path,
as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil.

BEN: Patience.

LUKE: And sacrifice Han and Leia?

YODA: If you honor what they fight for...yes!

The lesson about attachment is there. In fact, the Jedi know that the Sith, Vader specifically, are exploiting Luke?s attachment to his friends to bait and capture him. This is driven home by Obi stating that he didn?t want to lose Luke, like he lost Anakin and we know that Anakin was lost because of fear of losing attachments. Gee, who better than Vader, to know to exploit the very same fear of loss aspect with the ?son of Skywalker??

 

Exactly. He's just frustrated. Wouldn't you be if you spent all that money on expensive moisturizers and still looked like that?

On another note, is it possible for people to be concise when posting? Some of the posts are getting so long that you could watch every edition of all 6 movies in the time it takes to read a single post.

 

yankee, I don't even read the very long ones.
I'm interested in opinions, but not enough to read something
that's almost a novella
I find peoplen tend to summarize at the end so maybe if you
look at the last paragraph you'll get the idea of what they're
trying to say.

 

That said, I'm glad that DT421 posted the dialogue from the scene that he did, I think it illustrates my point quite well. Having learned from his past advice-giving mistakes, Yoda goes beyond just giving Luke a littany of Jedi dogma an addressing his specific concerns. Obviously, part of the moral of the story is that some people, especially those named Skywalker, just don't want to listen.

I should point out that the scene in RotS is actually one of my favorite in the movie, the juxtaposiiton of Yoda telling Anakin the truth with Palpatine telling Anakin what he wants to hear.

EDIT: maybe Yoda has been using free time on Dagoba to watch Dr. Phil, and has been taking notes!

 

Look, I'm not excusing Anakin in any way. He's responsible for his mistakes, no one else.

But Yoda made mistakes too, including not getting deeper into Anakin's fears in this scene.

Yeah but how deep must Yoda go and what good is it to go deep when all you will tell me is I wont let my vision come true. Heck Yoda would probably have to lie and say yeah there is a way to stop your loved one from dying and here is the way-go on a murdering spree but Yoda could not do that and he was right to stop death no Jedi can. I guess thats why Vader's words were said in ROTJ "Nothing can stop that now."

 

Maybe the best advice Yoda could have have given him was that name of a good OB-GYN.