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Yoda gave bad advice to Anakin in the Temple?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by rebel777, May 21, 2005.

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  1. MasterMak55

    MasterMak55 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Jun 7, 2005
    SmokeWars great reply. I agree with what you said and would add, look at the way Obi Wan realises his mistakes (and prequel Jedis mistakes in general) in the OT. He starts talking about "points of view" not this narrow minded doctrine of the Jedi in the Prequels. They (Yoda and Obi Wan) come to know their methods were too rigid and eventually that strict rigidness was their downfall. They should have showed initiative and adapted to overcome the new challenges ahead. Met people and addressed them in a more appropriate and driven approach. Showed concern in a more specific manner especially in the case of Anakin.

    Obi Wan in ROTJ speaks of certain points of view - compare that to his simple statement "Anakin, Chancellor Palpatine is Evil!" ...Well from Anakins point of view the Jedi are Evil... Perhaps I will post another thread on that specific issue. Highlighting a few points on the scandelous deeds of the Jedi, and destroying the myth that Jedi are perfect, infallible beings who can do no wrong nor ever have bad/evil intentions.
  2. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    Are you serious? You actually believe that?
  3. MasterMak55

    MasterMak55 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Jun 7, 2005
    c'mon, you don't? Have you watched the PT? Look at them in their pomp and arrogance. Comments like "Sith Lords are our speciality" - they have become stubborn and arrogant - which prevents them from change. They fear any change, especially relating to their powers and authority. They are like the frog that is satisfied with it's condition and when the temperature rises it boils in the water without realising. They may not acknowledge their evil or bad points/intentions because they have deludded themselves - just as Anakin and Sidious (to a lesser extent) are deluded into thinking they are doing what they do for a "greater good" or for "peace". Listen to Vader in ESB talk about bringing "this destructive conflict to an end". They (Jedi and Sith) really think what they do is right and never see Other points of view.... Only in the end is their a balance... only in the end do they stop judging people by absolutes.... Jedi can be corrupt, they can have bad thoughts, make bad decisions, kill for their religion - they can have all of this in them though they are mostly "good" ...Sith can have compassion and kindness, even some good in them yet they are mostly "evil". There is none that are all or nothing - but this is what the PT teaches. Absolutes are wrong - Obi Wan is wrong when he judges the sith in an absolute manner. Do you not see a little compassion is Sidious when saving Anakin burning body? Is it selfishness or is it because Anakin is now one of his own?

    Yoda's advice would be the perfect example illustrating how out of touch the Jedi council is with the reality of the situation. Here they sit while the Sith Lord is before their eyes. They have become gratified with their current state and refuse to budge or change even if it may be for the better.

    I shall soon post a new topic ellaborating on the issue of the corrupt Jedi Council...
  4. quiller

    quiller Jedi Master star 2

    Jun 1, 2005

    I definitely disagree with those thinking the Jedi win in ROTJ due to Luke and DV having attachments. I.e. it is DV attachment to Luke that allows him to kill the emperor, and it is Luke?s attachment to his friends that leads to his actions that help defeat the emperor. Thus also saying the Jedi?s rule on attachments was flawed in the PT and changing it lead to the Jedi winning in OT. It is Luke letting go of his attachments that allows him to stop fighting. His rage in wanting to help his friends not die makes him react the only way he can think of which is to fight. This rage ultimately allows him to beat DV and would have lead him to the dark side should he have continued and killed DV just like his father with the Count. Instead he sees what has happened to him. He was fighting in rage and letting his fear of not being able to help his friends cause him to fight his father which he knew was wrong, (he saw the good in his father) so he stopped fighting.

    Luke saw the machine that is DV, looked at his hand I am like my father, wait a minute my father turned to the dark side, is this what Yoda meant by not giving in to your fear, maybe giving into my anger was not such a good idea.. I should stop and think. Okay my father is still good I should not kill him that is what the emperor wants me to do, doing what the bad guy wants might not be the best course of action. Okay I will remain true to myself trust the force and stop fighting. If the emperor kills me, so be it, if my friends die, so be it. I can not save them by killing my father. I will remain a Jedi. DV sees Luke stop, not give in to dark side by letting your rage at something happening you can not stop but want to lead you to do something that you should not do. He remembers all his choices,. Hmm maybe it was not such a good idea for me to want to ?rule the world?, be the ?most powerful? that lead me to do some stupid things, believing the emperor over the Jedi. Hmm well obviously I have failed at that, my son will never help me kill the emperor and be the ?king?, wait I can kill him now, yes I might die but so be it.. DV acts ignores his fear of death and gives up all the things he wants (being the most powerful) and instead does what should be done and gives his life in killing the emperor.

    PADMELUVA Jedi Padawan star 4

    Nov 20, 2004
    how can someone honestly believe the jedi were evil?

    yes they had flaws. arrognace being the most serious...but acting with evil intentions?

    killing for their religion?

    prove it!

    this board is getting ridiculous when people honestly start believing this "from my point of view the jedi are evil"

    and about obi wan:

    you said he changed from ROTS and ROTJ

    "anakin chancellor palpatine is evil"
    "many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view"

    yah, obi wan is saying anakin honestly thought the jedi were evil. he isnt however saying he is right. he isnt trying to make an excuse for anakin, he is merely saying how anakin was mislead.

    obi waa is essentially the same in ROTS as he is in ROTJ...minus the whole....actually exisisting in the physical plane thing.
  6. MasterMak55

    MasterMak55 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Jun 7, 2005
    Acting with evil intentions... Well that is somthing that needs a detailed answer. However keeping things succinct, we can say that the intention may be Good (according to them) - but in reality it only their perception of "Good". A Sith may perceive something else to be "Good". So from another angle we could also say the Sith have "good" intentions. What I'm trying to say is that both Sith and Jedi think they are right and correct in what they do. They may be sincere intentions thinking they are right, but they may in reality be gravely misguided. Sith are generally considered Evil because more people have some common values of what is "good" and what is "evil" - it just so happens the Sith usually differ with these common values of good hence their "good" is considered evil by most of us. And as with the Jedi, they may think they are doing good - so their intentions may be good according to them, but they also may just be a facade in order to justify their actions.

    For example, any person may lust for power but not know it, they then in turn justify certain actions (e.g. Mace assasination [that might be a little extreme], taking over the senate suggestion) to achieve this hidden sub-concious urge. So People fool themselves into believing they are doing the right thing or fighting a cause - when in reality they only intend to secure their own personal urge or feeling hidden deep inside them.

    Don't be blinded by this dogmatic narrow minded approach of the Jedi. They say "we are the only righteous ones, those who oppose us must be imprisoned or die". They are just as extremist as some of the Sith. Yoda in particular has problems indentifying his own inadequecies. There can be no doubt he is arrogant... If Yoda could be more like Sids in the sense of relating to the one being spoken to - not in the sense of selfish manipulation - but to achieve the desired goal of speaking or writing or teaching - that is, to make the other people understand things as you want them to. i.e. So Yoda could make Anakin understand and believe in the Force, as Yoda believes in it. Having said that, it would only be achieved if Yoda adjusted his beleifs to be more in line with the times - allowing Anakin to come to this middle ground - The Jedi should not have been so strict and dogmatic with their Code. And that was truly their downfall.
  7. ObiJuanQuito

    ObiJuanQuito Jedi Youngling star 5

    May 20, 2005
    By the way, the thread subject is wrong...

    Bad advice is advice given by someone (Yoda)
    The person takes the advice to heart (anakin)
    And the advice fails.. That is truly bad advice..

    Yoda gave advice and anakin failed to take the advice..
    So its really not bad advice...

  8. Smokewars

    Smokewars Jedi Master star 1

    Nov 6, 2002
    I can't believe I keep getting drawn back into this, but I just can't believe some of the stuff I am reading.

    Dagobah dweller: "Okay, if Yoda is fully to blame ..."
    PadmeLuva: "How can you believe the Jedi are evil?"

    Seriously, if you are going to play, you MUST read the posts of both the people who agree and disagree with you. No one here has once said that Yoda is fully to blame. In fact, I went out of my way to say that it was Anakin's fault for falling. Saying Yoda is fully to blame would be as ridiculous as saying that Yoda is fully blameless. If the PT has taught anything, it's that these absolutes and dichotomous oversimplifications do nothing ... unless you are trying to brainwash someone to a certain cause like the Emperor does. PadmeLuva, c'mon! Nobody, NOBODY, ever said the Jedi are evil! Get real. In fact, I've spent too much time posting that their intentions are great, but their PT execution of communicating is sub-par unless the listener has been trained from birth to be receptive to the ideas. As far as being convincing, they fail. They're too reliant on a ready-made audience. But if they had used one midchlorian of their power, they'd know that not all audiences are receptive, and especially not the one who has been moaning in conflict for the last three movies!

    It's really quite a matter of realizing that there is no absolute good and absolute evil. No one is fully blame and no one is blameless. In the PT, the Jedi help make their bed that they end up lying in. Palpatine is the cause, Anakin is the puppet, but certainly, the institution of the Jedi Order did nothing to guard against it by investing in the students who ultimately fell. They were overconfident in their ideals, so overconfident that they did not bother to passionately make a case for themselves while the Sith did. It comes down to communication, not who's more moral. Clearly, the Jedi are hte moral ones. But this discussion is not about morality. Nobody disrespects Yoda, nobody thinks Jedis are the bad guys. But could the good guys have been better teachers and guarded against the cracks in their walls? Yes.

    In the army, troops are trained according to a certain doctrine: you are only as strong as your weakest link. That's why drill sargeants are on troops' asses all day to shape up or ship out. They don't just say, "do this because it's right." THey make sure the troops for whom they are responsible learn the lessons backwards, forwards, and sideways because the alternative is DEATH. And they never get accused coddling either. Because it's not coddling - it's just smart. Yoda needed to make sure the Chosen One was trained doubly as hard as the Jedi-from-birth Padawns because he knew that the Force was not on their side and he needed the Chosen One to help bring it back. But he realized this a little too late.

    Let's look at it this way: I was a teacher. Students never came up to me to tell me, "Hey, this is why I'm failing your class; will you help me?" Students don't do that! You're asking too much! A good teacher stays on a kid's ass and finds out what he or she needs to know to keep that kid smart, in school, and safe. So if the kid fails out and becomes a murderer (as did Anakin), it is that kid's fault, sure, but I better feel good about the fact that I did all I could to stop it. Did Yoda do all he could? All he could do? Are you sure?

    Lastly, someone asked why would Ben want Luke to go train with Yoda if Yoda wasn't a good teacher? The answer is pretty simple and stated at the end of ROTS. The both of them spend the next twenty years in isolation, "relearning that which they had learned." Not dismissing what the Jedis had long dismissed. Listening to Qui-Gon. Both Ben and Yoda undergo a severe change in perspective from the PT to the OT. In the PT, there are no "points of view", no "luminous beings are we," no "not ready for the burden were you," no "you must unlearn what you've learned" - no counseling, just indoctrinating. Is it any wonder that the only other survivor other than Yoda was the guy trained by Qu
  9. Obitachi

    Obitachi Jedi Master

    Nov 6, 2002
    I've just managed to go through this entire thread in one sitting, and a few things that are repeatedly brought up have made me twitch every time.

    Attachments are good! It's what saved Luke!


    Attachment is self-serving, attachment is what someone else can do for you.

    Love is unselfish, love is what you can do for someone else.

    Yoda should have told him that the future is always in motion!

    Too many people seem to take on the attitude that if it hasn't been seen in the movies it didn't happen before.

    Anakin has been a Jedi for thirteen years, why assume this scene with Yoda is the first time Anakin's heard about dealing with visions? Isn't it more logical to believe that maybe, just maybe, Anakin knows this already?

    Yoda is just being cruel and heartless and how dare he tell Anakin not to wallow in misery!
    Yoda was right but he was so rude, Anakin needs to be coddled!

    Letting go of things you desire is central to the Jedi ideal. Do you think that the Jedi waited thirteen years to start teaching him about the core philosophy of the Jedi? If that's the case it's no surprise they didn't want him to become a Master--hell, he shouldn't even be a Knight, even the younglings probably know more about the Jedi way than he does.

    Fact: Anakin's not learning anything new here. Yoda is just reinforcing what Anakin already knows, and as someone else on this thread has said, it's more a warning than actual advice.

    The Jedi never cut Anakin any slack because he came to the temple later!

    Well how do you know that? The first time we really see Anakin as a Jedi ten years have already passed--even in the Expanded Universe the first time we see Anakin in the temple it's three years after the Phantom Menace. After ten years, it's reasonable to assume that Anakin has managed to grasp the Jedi Essentials. Anakin certainly thinks he knows enough, he accuses Obi-Wan of holding him back.

    Regardless, Anakin did get some special treatment, the fact that he started his training at the age of nine demands that he was taught differently, even if he was being taught the same lessons.

    What most people with this attitude really seem to be saying is Anakin shouldn't be held to the same standards as Jedi raised in the temple. He should be different. Special. A whole new kind of Jedi. Allowed to make up his own rules, instead of following the same ones the other thousands of Jedi follow.

    The Jedi needed to die! They were wrong! Just because the Jedi teachings have been successful with hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of Jedi over the last millenia doesn't make them right!

    Of course not, the fact that 99.9999% of all Jedi in the last thousand or so years have managed to become successful, productive servants of the Republic without turning to the darkside indicates that the Jedi teachings are inherently flawed.


    Anakin has two main problems as I see it.

    1) He doesn't seem to understand what he's been taught, sure he can spout out lines of Jedi Code, but he doesn't get any of it. He doesn't understand why the rules are in place, when to follow them, and when they should be broken. And the teachings he does understand, he happily ignores anyway in favor of self-serving interpretations.

    2) Anakin has a huge ego, and he wants what he wants when he wants it and he doesn't really care if it goes against his role as a Jedi or his role as a husband. (Two roles which should be mutually exclusive anyway.)

    So no, I don't think Yoda gave bad advice, I think that Anakin is just a bad Jedi.
  10. TheLightSide

    TheLightSide Jedi Youngling star 2

    Apr 29, 2005
    Semantics. I am talking about personal, emotional attachments. Not possessiveness towards people.

    Yes, of course, Anakin should accept that Padme will die, just as all of us will. And he should not turn into a serial killer, just to keep his wife alive. I am not trying to say that attachments are paramount and above all.

    What I'm saying is that some personal empathy and personal relationships injected into the Jedi is what the Force wants, because that is what the galaxy is getting at the of Episode 6 with the Jedi twins.

    It is getting Force-user Leia into a heavy duty relationship with Han Solo. She will be using the Force, because she does use the Force to sense that Luke is alive when DS2 exploded, and you can be sure she is not going back into the box of the Code -- no personal relationship attachments at all. She will have to learn the new balance of the Force. Not the Code.

    The Code is Yoda saying that the mission is above all, as on Dagobah with Luke in ESB. Yoda is talking old school. He basically says "Your personal relationship friends are probably going to die. But your training and the mission over all." Yoda, those days are through!

    The same with his advice to Anakin. Mission! Mission! Mission! Yoda did not even ask any probing questions.

    What if Anakin had said, "Er Yoda, we are talking about my wife and unborn child."?

    Then Yoda would have gotten it wrong again, and expelled him. Instead Yoda should ask, "What through the Chosen One, is the Force trying to teach us?"

    Get a spouse, have some kids. Because Force-user Leia 24 years later sure seems like she is going to be doing just that.

  11. RebelScum77

    RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Aug 3, 2003
    You just read through this entire thread and came up with the conclusion that Anakin is just a bad Jedi??

    1) First of all Anakin's "self-serving" interpretations are really about other people. Every time he disobeys the Council in AOTC it is to save someone's life. Anakin's problem is fear, not arrogance. ROTS goes out of it's way to show that Anakin is making improvements, he's calmer and actually tries to follow the Code, he tries to give Obi-Wan all the credit, and he actually apologizes to him. It's only when there's the intervention of Palpatine or the Jedi that he breaks it. And if he doesn't understand the rules who's fault is that ultimately? His teachers? They made him a Knight and they allowed him on the Council, so either the Jedi are ignoring the fact that he doesn't understand the rules, or they're just ignorant to it. Is that entirely Anakin's fault? THEY promoted him.

    2) Again, Anakin's problem is not arrogance, sure he's arrogant but that characteristic does not damn him. He seems to be far humbler in ROTS than AOTC. The only circumstance where Anakin cares more about something other than his role as a Jedi is Padme. He is afraid of losing her. You're really giving him too much credit for being a straight-up bad person before the fall.

    PADMELUVA Jedi Padawan star 4

    Nov 20, 2004

    take some of your own adivce

    and read what mastermak55 has been typing

    he clearly implies that the jedi are selfish, and slef serving, saying they wanted contorl of the republic. he accuses the jedi of being religious extremists, who kill for their religion.


    PADMELUVA Jedi Padawan star 4

    Nov 20, 2004
    "A good teacher stays on a kid's ass and finds out what he or she needs to know to keep that kid smart, in school, and safe."

    not when your an adult and in college...cause then its up to you to take the initiative. maybe what your saying is true when your in grade, or high school...but face it, in episode 3, anakin was a man. he should have opened up what was bugging him.
  14. Jedi_Monk

    Jedi_Monk Jedi Youngling star 3

    Feb 13, 2004
    I haven't read the whole thread, but I'd like to put in my thoughts in general. Saying Yoda gave Anakin bad advice because of what ANAKIN did afterwards does NOT mean that Yoda's advice was unsound.

    It's like saying to a Catholic they should disavow the doctrine of transubstantiation because it isolates some Protestants. Yoda's preaching Jedi doctrine, which is sound--for a Jedi to fully do the will of the Force, they must let go of everything that keeps them attached to the world (i.e., parents, family). Anakin's fall came from his not being able to let go of things.
  15. ZamWesell44

    ZamWesell44 Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 13, 2003
    Yoda's advice to Anakin about not caring, was definetly not good advice but thats how the jedi are, Anakin does turn partially b/c of his attachment. Palpatine was right, dogmatic, is excatly what the jedi are, Kenobi's line."Only a Sith deals in absolutes." sounded good but is wrong, b/c its the jedi who do that clearly. Im not saying the Sith are the good, killing their masters in their sleep, but the jedi are from perfect> Theres a reason Qui-Gon is the perfect jedi, b/c he does the right thing, not b/c the council told him too, but b/c he knows what is right, Anakin did that but he was full of fear, and was thinking about his own life. When you think about it, the jedi are like a cult.
  16. Smokewars

    Smokewars Jedi Master star 1

    Nov 6, 2002
    Padmeluva (good name by the way)

    First, I have read MasterMak55's posts. And from what I've been reading, he has been talking about Anakin's point of view. Understanding a point of view is not the same as condoning. In fact, understanding it gives you the means to fight it.

    As to your second post, Anakin was a man, which is why I continually have attributed the blame to him. But that does not get Yoda off the hook because he treated Anakin like a "Jedi-man" for lack of a better term when the guy lacked close to a decade of indoctrination that all the other younglings had. Meaning, the fall is ultimately Anakin's fault, just like a high school senior failing out is ultimately his or her fault. But Yoda not only can take some ofthe blame on himself, but clearly DOES because he should have adapted his teachings to the skill level of the learner. It's akin to a teacher failing a deaf student for not giving a clear speech in debate class - the teacher needs to at least try ot approach it in another way, or the kid becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. As did Anakin.
  17. Princess_Marie

    Princess_Marie Jedi Youngling

    Jun 16, 2005

    I think that Yoda gave good advice. Anakin was just to caught up
    in old thoughts of pain from loosing his mother that he refused
    to go through it again. He of course loved Padme very much and I
    think that when Yoda said he had failed I think he felt he had
    failed because of not beating Lord Sitius. It was Anakin who did
    not listen to the advice and searched for ways around loosing Padme.

  18. Obitachi

    Obitachi Jedi Master

    Nov 6, 2002
    You just read through this entire thread and came up with the conclusion that Anakin is just a bad Jedi??

    No. I've felt Anakin was a bad Jedi since Episode II. But here, I was talking about his inability to apply the teachings of the Jedi Order, which should be central to his life as a Jedi Knight, to his own life. Or do you think good Jedi who want to be Masters don't need to understand the very beliefs they're supposed to uphold?

    Note that I believe Anakin does know the rules, but he can't or won't live them.

    1) First of all Anakin's "self-serving" interpretations are really about other people. Every time he disobeys the Council in AOTC it is to save someone's life.

    I was mostly speaking about two issues here, one being love and attachment, which is most certainly about what Anakin wants and not other people.

    "Attachment is forbidden. Possession is forbidden. Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love, is central to a Jedi's life, so you might say we're encouraged to love." Sound familiar? It might be technically true, but at the time Anakin was justifying hitting on Padme. I'd call that a self-serving interpretation.

    The other issue would be the spying mission. Apparently, in the mind of Anakin it's okay to break the rules only when there's someone he's lusting after or wants dead, but if breaking or bending the rules might potentially benifit the galaxy it's a big no-no.

    Apparently, you don't think breaking the code counts when Palpatine is involved, so I won't bother mentioning how turning against Mace less because he believes killing Palpatine is wrong, and almost entirely because he needs him is self-serving.

    2) Again, Anakin's problem is not arrogance, sure he's arrogant but that characteristic does not damn him. He seems to be far humbler in ROTS than AOTC. The only circumstance where Anakin cares more about something other than his role as a Jedi is Padme. He is afraid of losing her. You're really giving him too much credit for being a straight-up bad person before the fall.

    First of all, I never said that prior to his fall Anakin was a bad person, I said he was a bad Jedi. Secondly, arrogance is one of Anakin's major flaws in every Episode. He refuses to acknowledge there are things beyond his control, he thinks he can stop death and he's willing to massacre the people he's worked with, trained with, lived with, for the last thirteen years in order to accomplish it.

    Edit: Fixed my Anakin quote.
  19. mustardlyman

    mustardlyman Jedi Youngling star 1

    Feb 14, 2005
    Yoda's advice was reasonble. However he offers no help to try and prevent what Anakin fears will happen. Yet he's the one to rush to Geonosis to save Mace and co. Did Yoda not feel like letting go that day? Not to mention in RotS it seemed the Jedi or atleast the Council went out of their way to be cold to Anakin. The Jedi got what they deserved. They had it coming.

    THEFORCEROCKS Jedi Padawan star 4

    Nov 23, 2004
    Yoda's advice was reasonble. However he offers no help to try and prevent what Anakin fears will happen.
    Well what did Yoda tell Anakin be careful when sensing the future.Also what did Padme tell him that he needed no more power to save her and that she would not die. The only way to prevent Anakins fears from coming true was for Anakin to listen. So instead he sides with a SITH lord, the very same one that has been trying to kill his wife for years and gets angry with Padme when she wont side with him on Mustafar, what ever gave Anakin the indication that she would when she told him what not to do and he goes and does the opposite.

    Yet he's the one to rush to Geonosis to save Mace and co. Did Yoda not feel like letting go that day? Not to mention in RotS it seemed the Jedi or atleast the Council went out of their way to be cold to Anakin. The Jedi got what they deserved. They had it coming.

    What does the JEDI council have to do with Anakin slaughtering and murdering people and then putting the blame on Padme. Did PAdme deserve to be ladened with the guilt that everyone is dead because of her. The Jedi werent the only ones affected by Anakin's selfish and ignorant choice.
  21. Darth Sin

    Darth Sin Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Oct 14, 1999
    I have wondered why did not Anakin simply ask Yoda if there was a way through the Force to keep people from dying?

    Some people say that Yoda gave Anakin bad advice, but let us not forget that he gave little information to Yoda to be able to really help him.

    I guess Anakin did not think the Jedi had this ability and power to keep people from dying, and if they did, he certainly could not tell them he feared Padme dying and wanted to find a way to keep her from dying.

    This shows how deadly and dangerous it was for him to get involved with Padme, because it caused him to have to lie and be about deceiving others, which basically was helping to pave the way to the dark side.

    Darth Sin! :cool:
  22. LemmingLord

    LemmingLord Jedi Padawan star 4

    Apr 28, 2005
    Any order of beings do share some common "narrow minded" approaches; indeed, it is an essential characteristic of a "group" to have two things in common: a shared interest and a shared sense that teamwork or grouping together will better achieve that interest.

    To return these replies back to the original statement "Yoda gave bad advice to Anakin the Temple(?)," it is true that Yoda's advice was heavily influence by his point of view; whose advice isn't; and, yes, this point of view is one that his group, "the Jedi Order" have as a primary tennant, which I shall express as this syllogisms:

    fear leads to anger
    anger leads to hate
    therefore fear leads to hate

    fear leads to hate
    hate leads to suffering
    therefore fear leads to suffering

    attachment leads to fear
    fear leads to suffering
    therefore attachment leads to suffering

    This is the point of view of the Jedi; especially Yoda. If you believe in the premises then the conclusions naturally follow. Yoda does give Anakin the dogmatic answer of the order; but what did Anakin expect? Lets see; he's in the Jedi order, he's suffering, he goes to the leader of the order for advice on how to deal with his pain, and Yoda reminds him of the answer the order has.

    It was the right advice for a dedicated Jedi; but Anakin is not a dedicated Jedi. Yoda may have been blinded by his dogma when he chose to give Anakin advice he knew he could not follow. One alternative would have been for Yoda to commiserate, ask more questions about the situation, give the guy a hug, and give him advice that could be followed by an impulsive fearful Jedi; or, realizing the danger of his attachment in these chaotic times - perhaps suggested that he would, I don't know, "use every power at his disposal to help Anakin's loved one from dying."

    On the matter of "those who oppose us must be imprisoned or die," I must say that the Sith do not merely oppose the Jedi, but they oppose any life that isn't under their direct control.

    which is "fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate; hate leads to [unnecessary] suffering" and "suffering is badwas yoda's advice bad"

    MasterMak said:
    >Don't be blinded by this dogmatic narrow minded approach of the Jedi. They say "we are the only righteous ones, those who oppose us must be imprisoned or die".
  23. Dagobah_Dweller

    Dagobah_Dweller Jedi Padawan star 4

    Jun 12, 2005
    Semantics. I am talking about personal, emotional attachments. Not possessiveness towards people.

    ummm...but that's what personal emotional attachments are...possessivness....listen, I'm not saying its bad for a normal person to have an attachment to thier girlfriend/boyfiend, mom/dad, brother/sister, but (and I've repeated this soooo many times it's starting to make me sick), for a JEDI, someone who has pledged themself to this religion, someone who has dedicated themself to these beliefs, they must accept all the beliefs, not just pick and choose which ones they like and which ones they don't...personal attachment is a bad thing for a JEDI. It breeds jealousy, fear of loss, and hatered.

    Anakin has always been selfish about this fact. he could have just gone to the temple in AotC, said "listen guys, I'm sorry, but this isn't working out....I'm in love with Padme now, and, because that isn't allowed, I'd like to resign from the Order...." while the Council might be upset over this, they'd have no choice but to let Anakin do what he wanted to do...but since Anakin wants to have his cake and eat it too, he decides to be deceitful and coniving toward the Order that accepted him (albeit grudgingly), and marry behind thier backs. if he hadn't gotten married, none of this would have even happened. if he had accepted that he was a Jedi, he made this pledge, and must uphold every aspect of this pledge, he would have no problem letting go of his attachments.

    people want to think that Anakin isn't being selfish about his attachments because it hits too close to home. It means that they'd have to admit that , yes, they are selfish sometimes, that they are possessive about thier attachments (example: you ever caught someone looking lustfully at your significant other? don't tell me, that if you do have a significant other, that you weren't jealous, that you didn't want to go over and knock the living crap outta that person for looking at what, you viewed, was yours.) (second example: ever heard someone talking ***t about your mom? pretty infuriating stuff...because it's your mom, and no one should talk about your mom that way....).
  24. Smokewars

    Smokewars Jedi Master star 1

    Nov 6, 2002
    Dagobah dweller, great posts from you all around. And I agree with what you are saying about Anakin being selfish. Of course, he is selfish. And of course, he is a bad Jedi. I don't think that is the issue. I think the issue is that Yoda sensed the conflict within Anakin, could sense his pain and fear of loss, and did not change his mode of instruction for the sake of the learner, and for the sake of the whole Jedi Order. Given Yoda's sensing of Anakin's pain for three movies, there's only two logical possibilities for why Yoda did not take care to either personally instruct this delicate case, or at least give him a fuller explanation in his meditation chamber:

    1) That Yoda knew Anakin's destiny, knew that he was destined to fulfill the prophecy but first destined to decimate the Order and simply knew he could not stop it (rendering a different mode of teaching useless),


    2) That Yoda was blind to it, as the Dark Side clouds everything, and as his one mode of instruction had worked with all the other "un-Chosen" Jedi, so he overrelied on directives without explanation that had for so long worked. Meanwhile, the more seductive Sith manipulated the young boy who was so open to manipulation in the first place, due to his inner conflict.

    As for #1, I just don't buy that Yoda would allow all his friends to die and the Order to crumble because he foresaw that destiny. Lucas might have put that in as a further evidence of how a truly Master Jedi literally has no attachments, but he did not. Yoda's reaction showed that he did not foresee this, and in fact, he came off as very ANGRY when we see him fighting the Clones. Fear, leads to hate, hate leads to ... I'm not going to say Yoda succumbed to the Dark Side at all, but this is not the meditative Taoist of the PM, or of the OT. He is reacting (as anyone would) because he was blindsided, surprised and unready for this eventuality.

    Which leads me to believe option 2. That he did not see what was coming. He was too "comfortable" and confident in the righteousness, morality, and honor of the Jedi to see that this one particular Jedi needed something more than most other Jedis. It's like King Arthur and Lancelot ... Lancelot was not an ideal Knight of the Round table, but he was the "Chosen One" and King Arthur did treat him differently, even going as far as not beheading him after Lancelot slept with his wife. In the end, Yoda just treated Anakin no differently than anyone else, which may be equality in one sense, but is also rigid, dogmatic, and completely passive instruction. Yoda had the rare gift of omnisicience, and knew Anakin's conflict and mindset, so knowing that and still doing nothing is simply bad instruction.

    Seeing Yoda's potential flaw in instruction doesn't let Anakin off the hook; Anakin is accountable for all of this. It just doesn't lionize Yoda or Mace or the Council to the point of leaving them blameless. For they too are accountable for their actions, or in this case, inaction. If everyone should be accountable for their own actions (as seems to be the argument against placing blame on anyone other than Anakin and Palpatine), then should not the Jedi be held accountable for their inaction - for not using the gifts of foresight and intuition to stop disaster from befalling them and their star pupil?

    Everyone arguing for the Jedi's perfection seems to be placing ABSOLUTE blame on Anakin for all of this. Yet if Jedi's supposedly do not deal in absolutes, how is it possible that there is only one side to blame? An apple isn't born with a rotten core; without proper care, outside elements affect it. You can't JUST blame the apple. It may not be the farmer's fault for it going bad, but could the farmer have stopped it? Perhaps. Maybe if he had tried, the whole batch wouldn't have gotten spoiled as well.
  25. Dagobah_Dweller

    Dagobah_Dweller Jedi Padawan star 4

    Jun 12, 2005
    ok Smokewars, I see your point (even though I still disagree a little). You have put up good posts on this one too...
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