Yoda gave bad advice to Anakin in the Temple?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by rebel777, May 21, 2005.

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  1. quiller Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2005
    star 2
    This is fun. Dito Dagobah.

    I sometimes think of the Jedi's view on love like this.

    Going on a camping trip is a good thing. But I bet no one out there thinks its a good idea for your 16 year old daughter to go on a camping trip with her boyfriend.

    Love is okay but not too much love to one particular thing or person over everything or everyone else.

    Anakin knew this, showed he knew it in AOTC. He just like a lot of people thought nothing bad could happen to him. Yes going 90 down the highway is not a good idea but a lot of people do it because they think they are industructable will live for ever and good enough driver that nothing will go wrong. Anakin knew marriage attachment too Padma was wrong but thought he was better then anyone else and could deal with anything, nothing bad will happen to me I am all powerfull.

    Yoda's advise was good and Anakin knew it and that was why he was suffering so much deciding what to do as he knew he was going against good advise in stopping Mace.

    Did the Jedi fail, well are you one who thinks the captain is responsible for the ship no matter what then yes they failed.

    I place blame 48% palp 47% anakin 2% jedi 1% force.

    And please those thinking the force wanted anakin as the choosen one to change the Jedi way of life.... where did the proficy say this, where was it in the proficy that the choosen one would be most powerful Jedi, there new leader. According to the film the choosen one only brings balance to the force(which is not explained at all) Only Lucas can fully explain this and he's not talking. Maybe (which is what happens in the film) the choosen one is only supposed to finally kill off the Sith by being the only Jedi able to return from the darkside.. so he had to turn in the first place..... thus force's fault for turning.... ALSO if the force meant for Anakin to show the Jedi that they need to be married.. have strong family ties why go barely half way. I do not think little Anakin as a small child had such a strong family, no father figure no brother sister grandfather. Why not let him get older have a wife develope normal family fealings... no I do not by that at all...
  2. Alia_Solo_Vos Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 20, 2004
    star 1
    Actually I just have to say that obitachi, I think you have nailed the exact problems with Anakin very well and very clearly, and backed it up with good examples.

    Smokewars, you have good points, but to me, personally, the bottom line is that while the Jedi may not have been perfect and might have needed a change here or there, the bottom line is that Anakin made the choices he did, as obitachi said, for all the wrong reasons. One person's life should never be held above thousands. He could not call himself a Jedi and then go and do what he did all for the "supposed" love of one person. The good of the many outweighs the good of the one. Anakin has to be held responsible for choices he made. He was still fairly young, he was naive, Palpatine played him like a violin...and at the end of the day,he was a man who should have known better. He made some really bad choices that had horrible repurcussions for the galaxy and for him personally. There is no one to blame in that particular situation but Anakin. Yoda could have sat him down and had a five hour lecture with him about the many differences of attachments, letting people go, death, visions, etc...and like obitachi said, whose to say these conversations never occurred. At the end of the day, Anakin still would have made the same choices because the inherent flaw was in him. The dragon that he brought forth from his heart...was not the Jedi, not the teachings, but Anakin's own fears that he never learned to deal with. No one can help you deal with things like that, only you, at the end of the day can face down your own fears. This is entirely my opinion, however, and probably flawed in some way.

  3. Smokewars Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2002
    star 1
    That is true, Alia Solo Vos. In fact, I'm listening to the soundtrack at work right now, and listening to the song when all the Jedis get mowed down by the Clones. The song is titled "Anakin's Betrayal." I think that's pretty telling. Even John Williams places ultimate blame with Anakin. I think everyone can agree that ultimate blame belongs with Anakin (and if not, they should be made to agree ... by someone wise ;-) ).

    It's just hard for me to ever say that someone is so far gone that they can't be brought back. And Anakin was eventually brought back. It just took something very personal to do it. And that makes me wonder if Yoda's advice had been a little more personal, a little more tailored for Anakin rather than for any ole Jedi, it might have done some good.

    Coulda, woulda, shoulda, I guess. Anyway, gotta get back to work. Chow for now.
  4. Dagobah_Dweller Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 2005
    star 4
    Coulda, woulda, shoulda, I guess. Anyway, gotta get back to work. Chow for now.

    smokewars, you are truly an asset to this board, and that's not sarcasm! I really enjoy debating with you, you put out good points, and are willing to listen to other's points as well. rock on, my fellow SW geek!;)
  5. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    YODA: "Careful you must be when sensing the future, Anakin. The fear of loss is a path to the dark side."

    ANAKIN: "I won't let these visions come true, Master Yoda."

    YODA: "Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is."

    YODA: "How feel you?"

    ANAKIN: "Cold, sir."

    YODA: "Afraid are you?"

    ANAKIN: "No, sir."

    YODA: "See through you, we can. Revealed you are."

    MACE WINDU: "Be mindful of your feelings..."

    KI-ADI-MUNDI: "Your thoughts dwell on your mother."

    ANAKIN: "I miss her."

    YODA: "Afraid to lose her... I think."

    ANAKIN: "What's that got to do with anything?"

    YODA: "Everything. Fear is the path to the dark side... fear leads to anger... anger leads to hate.. hate leads to suffering. I sense much fear in you."

    YODA: "Run! Yes. A Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger...fear...aggression. The dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny,
    consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice."

    YODA: "Remember, a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware. Anger, fear, aggression. The dark side are they. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny."

    In the second film, we get into more of that turmoil. It's the beginning of the Clone Wars, it's the beginning of the end of democracy in the Republic, sorta the beginning of the end of the Republic, and it's Anakin Skyalker beginning to deal with some of his more intense emotions of anger, hatred, sense of loss, possessiveness, jealousy, and the other things he's coping with."

    --George Lucas, The Star Wars Trilogy VHS Boxset 2000.



    Anakin's been told early on what leads to the Dark Side. He just doesn't care when it comes to Shmi and Padme.
  6. Alia_Solo_Vos Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 20, 2004
    star 1
    "Anakin's Betrayal" is an incredibly sad and moving song along with "Anakin's Dark Deeds".

    Your point is solid, smokewars. I guess for the Jedi, it would be like looking back in retrosect and saying..."Well if we had done that, or if we had done this differently would things have been different?" Kind of like screwing up your kid and then wondering where you went wrong. Obi-wan seems to think that things might have been different when he tells Luke that Yoda could have done a far better job taching Anakin then he did.
  7. masterjedi747 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 1, 2004
    star 3
    I found this recently, and hopefully it will help clear this situation up:
    There is a difference between attatchments and connections.
    This was actually something I found in Volume 4 of the Clone Wars comics, but it makes sense.

    Attatchments are dangerous. This is a key theme of the Saga. The Jedi ended up being right on the whole attachment thing. That was the fatal flaw for why Anakin turned. Obi-Wan and Yoda hold out on telling Luke that Leia is his sister, because they know the danger this will cause to her if Luke becomes possessive about her. But "connections" are different. The Jedi must be connected to the Living Force and to each other....this is what gives them their strength. Qui-Gon says "You will learn to let go of everything. No attachment, no thought of self. No physical self."....and he was right. Only a pure connection to the Living Force will allow the Jedi to become Force Ghosts. Not attatchment. Attatchments are primarily emotional. And they can be dangerous, because emotions can blind us to the truth in a situation if we allow them to. The Jedi seek to control their emotions, not let their emotions control them....in essence, to be more fully human by doing so. Not "less human". Self-control is one of the biggest things that separates humans from animals. And attatchments are not the same as "possesions" either. But possessions can more easily lead to attatchments, and thus the Jedi avoid them because they are simply an unnecessary danger. But connections are encouraged by the Jedi Code. They must be connected to the Force, the Living Force, and to each other. So instead of being "unattatched to their attatchments", we see that Jedi should be unattatched to their connections.

    Here's some quotes from the books I was reading that helped clear this up:

    Star Wars Clone Wars Volume 4: Light and Dark
    THOLME: How could you connect with Aurra Sing when you yourself are not confortable with connections? You never have been.
    DARK WOMAN: A Jedi must not form attatchments, Tholme!
    THOLME: Attatchments, no. But our strength comes from our connections. To the Force ... and each other. It is those connections that make us who we are.

    Star Wars: Legacy of the Jedi (by Jude Watson)
    (Dooku Speaking) "You have been an excellent Padawan, Qui-Gon. I could not ask for a better one. I will tell the Council this as you face the trials. But I will not tell them this: You have a flaw. This in itself is not a bad thing. Each of us has one. It is bad when we don't see it. Yet what is far worse is to see your flaw and to think it is not a flaw at all. Perhaps it is my fault that I was not able to teach you my most important lesson. Your flaw is your need for connection to the living Force. Qui-Gon, the galaxy is crowded with beings. The Jedi Order is here to support you. Nevertheless, you must carry the following knowledge within your heart; You are always alone, and betrayal is inevitable."

    Qui-Gon was the Master now, and he still remembered the lesson. It was the only one Dooku had given him that he had not heeded. Qui-Gon had come to believe that beings were more complicated than just a simple formula. And he had come to see that to live without friendship or trust was to inhabit a galaxy he did not want to live in.

    Your flaw is your need for connection to the living Force.
    Qui-Gon saw the truth of this. He had not completely discounted what Dooku had to say. In his daily life he tried to keep that connection in balance with the Jedi path. No attatchments. He did not see this as a conflict. He saw it as a great truth - that he could love, but have no wish to possess. That he could trust, but not resent those who let him down.
  8. Nihilist Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 2
    Yes and since all things die, or pass on, why attach yourself in ways that will lead to pain and suffering, yoda is right, death is a natural occurence like birth but because we are selfish and afraid, it leads to unnecessarily painful emotions. These things are beyond change, so may as well accept them. Compassion, recognition of shared suffering in sameness is a connection based on healthy love, attachment can be dangerous.
  9. MasterMak55 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2005
    star 1
    Guess what Dagobah dweller... I agree with your post ;)

    I think smokewars hit it on the head quite a few posts ago, it does come down to failure on Anakins part. I was saying Sidious is partly to blame but Yoda could also be faulted (Along with his out-dated Code). What I was trying to do (rather unsuccessfully as it turned out!) was to try and show things from Anakins point of view... And why anyone could even contemplate believing THE SITH LORD - The one who started the wars, the one who was responsible for deaths of millions, the one who ordered the kidnapping of his wife and almost having her killed, the one who was responsible for training Dooku, who in turn chopped his hand/arm off, and.... and.... But if we do see things from Anakins point of view, we can see just maybe how he was directed or inclined to the position he took (not taking the blame away from him), we can see how someone like him, with his circumstances (who joined the Jedi at a late age) could see Yoda as a mummified ancient being, stuck in a time-warp, rigid and unresponsive to his personal needs.... Yes, we know Jedi have to lose all their personality ( ;) Mace ;) ) but was he not a special needs case?

    Obi Wan: With all due respect master, is He not the Chosen One?

    He was like the Schoolkid who tries, is put in the top class, and is then constantly reprimanded, never encouraged - He will become a Rebel and join those who tell him he's "cool" or whatever they say nowadays. It's natural to be inclined to those who tell you how good you are, even if they might not have your best interests at heart... "The friend is ther one ..."

    Basically the Sith Lord clouded their vision, created doubts for them all and the Jedi were like the passengers or creators of the Titanic - The Unsinkable Ship... Arrogance does indeed blind.

    The argument of whether the Code should be modified is judged best by the OT. We clearly see the differance between the Jedi in the PT and OT.


    EDIT: Oh and I love listening to "Anakins Betrayal" - In fact Order 66 is my fav seen in the whole film.
  10. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    "Anakin's Betrayal" is probably my favorite track. And I love that it pops up all throughout the movie, much more than on the actual soundtrack. Besides Order 66 my other favorite use of it is when Sidious and Vader look out at the Death Star being constructed, it's brilliantly mixed with the Imperial March (I believe).

    But anyway. :p

    sinister, that quote is from TPM and Anakin wasn't even accepted as a Padawan at that point. During Yoda's speech in ROTS are we supposed to remember back to Yoda's words to 9 year old who was going to be rejected and think, oh Anakin should have known better because of that?

    To use yet another (probably inadequate) analogy...

    Say I raise my children and impart on them the belief that drugs are bad. Then one day, when they're in high school, my still impressionable son comes to me and mentions that he's going to a party where there's going to be a lot of drugs, he seems torn about the issue as he never usually tries to talk to me about it. I know that he's been under alot of stress. But all I can say to him is "don't do drugs, drugs are bad." Even though I may have told him before, when he was younger and it wasn't so crucial, why exactly drugs are bad and how to avoid them, the point is I didn't tell him again when it really counted. I didn't help him when he had an obvious problem, even though he should have known better.

    Everyone knows that Anakin has issues... "Pain. Suffering. Death, I feel. Something terrible has happened. Young Skywalker is in pain. Terrible pain." But no one seems to do anything about it. Should he have known better? Yes. But Yoda can sense from across the galaxy that something is wrong with Anakin. He should not be feeling such intense emotions. And it seems from the Clone Wars EU that he never got much help... except for maybe Neeja Halycon, who was himself married.
  11. mynameismyown Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2005
    star 3
    anakin goes to padme with his troubles and even she can't help him! i think anakin was going to find someway no matter what to save padme even though theres not much he could do. and also he says he wants more power and thats what the darkside gives you but it will prove to be your undoing
  12. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    sinister, that quote is from TPM and Anakin wasn't even accepted as a Padawan at that point. During Yoda's speech in ROTS are we supposed to remember back to Yoda's words to 9 year old who was going to be rejected and think, oh Anakin should have known better because of that?

    Yep. That's why I put that and the stuff from the OT. It all comes down to attachments and the dark emotions that come with them. Yoda and the other Council members could sense Anakin's attachment to his mother. That's why they were going to reject him. They kept him because of his power, the possibility that he's the Chosen One and that the Sith are now back. In AOTC, we see that those fears were justified with the Tusken Raider massacare and the brash actions on Geonosis. In ROTS, we see that history is starting to repeat itself again. Anakin's ingnoring Yoda's advice and the Jedi Code, out of his a selfish desire to save Padme. And because Anakin failed to do what he must, he damned himself as a result of this. Luke gets it because he sees himself in his father and remembers his failure in the cave. Letting his fear, anger and hate of Vader cloude his judgement, he would become an agent of evil. By letting go, he would become a Jedi and prove himself a better person. Luke's example got through to Anakin and he realized his mistakes.
  13. TheLightSide Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2005
    star 2
    So what about Anakin's daughter, Leia?

    She is on the road to becoming strong with the Force, and is already using it near and at the end of Episode 6. Yet, she is hot and heavy with Han Solo, and has strong spousal oriented feelings for Han.

    So, is history going to repeat itself? Is the too strict Code going to be re-instated by Luke against his sister Leia? "Sister, you're a Force-user like me, but your out, just like dad thought he would be when he married mom, and conceived us."

    The larger picture as to what the Force was trying to say.

    C'mon, let's all admit it. Before TPM was released in 1999, we all thought Jedi got married and had kids in the "Old" Republic. Because in the EU sequels, Luke marries Mara. Leia marries Han and has twins of her own, etc.

    We were all shocked when we found out they were emotion-less, near monks, who were taken from their parents in infancy and early toddlerhood.

    All I'm trying to say is that Anakin really shook things up being conceived as the Chosen One immaculately, getting married, etc. It's too bad Mace and Yoda NEVER, EVER gave him a real chance.

    Because if the Code is soooo right, then everyone is going to have a big problem with Leia in the sequels.

    Maybe Leia could be the focus of Eps. 7-9. Leia Solo, kicked out of the Order by her brother, with her husband Han as the leader of her armies, turns Sith Queen.

    "Welcome brother, I have been expecting you..."



  14. PADMELUVA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2004
    star 4
    your making alot of assumptions LightSide

    forget the eu detailing the events after ROTJ exists.

    who says leia is going to want to become a jedi? maybe she is content as a rebel leader, and princess fighting for freedom. just because she is using the force, doesnt mean she is going to fine tune her skills as a jedi would.

    and i agree, it is possible for a jedi to marry. the old jedi thought it was nearly impossible to marry, and fall in love with out forming an attachment. they knew it was incredibly hard, and it was a risk they were not willing to take. were they wrong? in the end...yes. but certainly they were right to think it was a near impossibility.

    now i do agree the natural course would be for luke to allow jedi to fall in love and marry, WHICH IS NOT THE SAME as allowing them to form attachments. this means, luke really has his work cut out for him. he has to be able to teach jedi to fall in love, not let your emotioins rule you, think objectivly, and most of all learn to let go. something the jedi had a hard time teadhing anakin, something anakin had a difficult time learning (20 something yrs).

    so really its a two way street. luke has to learn to teach these diffult to learn lessons, and his pupils have to be able to see the greater picture, something anakin could not do, because love does so easily blind us.
  15. PADMELUVA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2004
    star 4
    "We were all shocked when we found out they were emotion-less, near monks, who were taken from their parents in infancy and early toddlerhood."

    i certainly wasnt shocked.

    and i dont think they are emotion-less, they are just stoeic, and always in control of themselves. to me, thats a very good thing.

    and its not like they were stolen away. from what i understand on film, the jedi can feel a vergence in the force, surrounding a child. they parents are the ones who make the decision of wether or not to send their child to the temple, and risk never seeing them again. still, the choice is there.

  16. THEFORCEROCKS Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2004
    star 4
    Obi-wan seems to think that things might have been different when he tells Luke that Yoda could have done a far better job taching Anakin then he did.


    Obi-Wan never said that in fact what Yoda said to luke in ESB was "I can not train this boy, he has no patience too much anger like his father."
  17. ASHalcyon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2004
    star 1
    No, he did say that. I believe it was in ROTJ during his scene with Luke. He clearly said that he believed he could train him just as well as Yoda and then went to say his arrogance had great effect for the entire galaxy. It was after Luke had confronted him about keeping the truth from him and while Obi-Wan was telling him about when he had first met his father.
  18. THEFORCEROCKS Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2004
    star 4
    No, he did say that. I believe it was in ROTJ during his scene with Luke. He clearly said that he believed he could train him just as well as Yoda and then went to say his arrogance had great effect for the entire galaxy

    Okay I thought he said he thought he could instruct Anakin as well as Yoda had instructed him and he said his pride had consequences for the galaxy not his arrogance.
  19. ASHalcyon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2004
    star 1
    arrogance and pride are interchangeable. They may have slight differences but both boil down to the same side. And instructing and teaching mean the same thing, forcerocks, so it matters little if you say he thought he could teach better or instruct better. I am paraphrasing not quoting directly and it has been a few months since I watched the movie. Bottom line is that Obi-wan believed he had made a mistake and that Yoda could have done better.
  20. ASHalcyon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2004
    star 1
    Of course whether he could or not remains to be seen. ~_^ Obi-wan was not all too blame and I thought he was awfully hard on himself. Anakin might have been unreachable.
  21. JedimasterMoon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2005
    star 4
    Yoda did not know all about Anakin's situation,so he gave him the best advice he could.
  22. jedi_prime Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2005
    star 2
    Yoda's advice was on point...he was a Jedi Master instructing a young Knight as to a certain aspect of the Code. Maybe he should have asked Anakin whether there was something he was holding back? Like, say, maybe a pregnant wife, a massacre of near-helpless primitives and the beheading of an unarmed (and un-handed) man?

    That is what always throws me...that none of the Jedi picked up on Anakin's rage, lust for vengeance and passion for Padme.
  23. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Leia would want to become a Jedi, because she understands her duty. The legacy of the Jedi. And she has control over herself. She has compassion and unconditional love. No thought of self or attachments.
  24. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    Exactly

    "I wish i could go with you.."
    "No you don't, you've always been strong"

    Luke & Leia have a very healthy, self-less, relationship with each other (discounting the ESB-kiss :p ). So do Han & Leia, Han was able to "let go" of Leia because he thought she'd be happier with Luke.

    The difference between Luke & Anakin is that Luke learned his lesson after ESB, whereas Anakin went against what he should've learned in AotC ("You're not all-powerful""Well i should be!"). Leia and Shmi have, imo, been the most consistently "strongest" Skywalkers in the saga.

    - O_F
  25. MasterMak55 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2005
    star 1
    I can't understand how anyone can love another "Uncondionally". There will always be conditions, if not, then our scales of judgement would surely be flawed. I know GL has said the Jedi should even love the Sith... But is this really the case? Does Yoda love Obi-Wan as much as he loves Sidious - no, which means there are differant levels of love, which also means there is hate (or if hate is too strong the lowest level would be total apathy - no love at all). So this dichotomy between love and hate is quite complex - It would not be right to say someone loves unconditionally. IF Luke had turned into a baddie, had embraced the darkside, had slaughtered younglings, had blown up entire planets, do you think Leia would still love him? No, so there is a condition to her love after all.

    In the SW Universe, this unconditional love is only achievable if a Young one is picked up at very young age and trained (or brainwashed) to have certain feeling and suppress others. Anakin, Luk and Leia have all experianced attachments in their youth and hence would all be difficult if not impossible to train. I would say Jedi love and hate, but have learnt to bury their feelings of hate into a "dormant" state - so they never manifest themselves in their actions. It is like how I can hate someone but talk to them in a mild and pleasent manner.
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