Yoda gave bad advice to Anakin in the Temple?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by rebel777, May 21, 2005.

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  1. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    Still a good thread this, keep it up.

    About Anakin in TPM,
    He comes to the jedi with attachments to his mother and the jedi want to reject his becasue of that. So they did not think that they could train Anakin to let go of his attachments but they later changed their minds and Obi-Wan really forced their hand.

    They ask Anakin about his mother and he says he misses her and they pretty much scold him for that, that he is afraid to losse her etc. Most nine year olds would be afraid to loose their parents so I do not find Anakins feelings all that unusual. But the PT jedis are all trained from birth and it is possible that none of them have ever even known their mother or father. So none of the jedi could really understand Anakins attachment to his mother because they have never experienced a parent-child relationship. So what did they do to help Anakin get rid of his attachment to his mother? The movies does not say but I think that the Jedi might have been ill-prepared to deal with Anakin as their entire traning model is based around the idea that a jedi should never develop attachments. That is why they take children from birth, the parents are never allowed to see their child ever again, etc. But Anakin already has attachments so the standard jedi approach might not work with him becasue it is one thing to train someone to avoid forming attachments compared to training someone to let go of attachments already formed.
    I am not excusing Anakin here, he made the choices and it was his resposibility but the jedi might not always have done the best thing in every situation.

    Take the jedis practice of taking children almost at birth, I find this system rather unpleasant and either the Jedi simply take the children and the parents have no say in the matter or the parents are allowed a choice but still the child itself is never given a choice. The movies does not say how it works and the EU have evidence of both, in some novels there are people that hate the jedi because they took their children, in others parents are given a choice. Either way it makes the jedi kind of like the PsiCorps in B5.
    You can leave the jedi order but how easy would it be for a 12-13 year old to give up the only life he or she has ever known? Also one does wonder what happens to those that want to leave? Dooku left without problem, but he was a full jedi at the time. What happens to those that are only half-trained and decide that they want out? In ESB, Obi-Wan says that Luke was in a dangerous time, that he could feel the force but not controll it and he would be tempted by the dark side. So would the Jedi let a partly trained jedi just leave with the danger of the dark side?

    In closing, the old jedi code is no guarantee that the person will never fall to the dark side, take Dooku, he was trained in the "no-attachments" school but he still fell to the dark side.

    Regards
    Nordom
  2. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    Exactly. This is the whole who's responsible the parent of the child argument, which is controversial in and of itself. It seems rather clear that Anakin NEVER learned the principal of non-attachment. So who's fault is that? Is it the Jedi for never realizing he just didn't get it, or is it his for not letting himself learn it? COULD he have even learned it in the first place? Your experiences in childhood vastly affect your life, perhaps it was possible that once he had experienced such attachment and then had it suddenly taken away as a small child, he was incapable of truly learning the lesson. This will probably never be answered. But it seems that the Jedi could have had two choices,

    1. Try a little bit harder to fix the problem. Give him special training because obviously he needs it, being fundamentally different from any other Padawan.
    2. Learn from him. The Force clearly chose a boy who had attachments. WHY was that? So the Jedi could take him away and assume he'll forget about that attachment? As a test? The Force also apparently gave him visions of her dying. Another test? Or should the Jedi have realized the Force was trying to tell them all something? A warning- this kid needs to be fixed?

    The Jedi don't appear to take either action. The sit passively and wait for the will of the Force to show itself, instead of acting seeking out what it might be trying to tell them. This is why the dark side clouds their vision. But the Force DOES come to Anakin, and they ignore it saying "dreams pass in time" and "death is a natural part of life."
  3. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    Doesn't that counter the whole "they did nothing" argument?

    They DID do something, whenever Anakin reached out - they gave him their advice. They didn't say "We don't know", or "get over it", or "ignore it". Kenobi said "dreams pass in time" - that is a true statement, whether one agrees with it or not. Yoda said "Death is a natural part of life, train yourself to let go of your fear of loss" - again, a true statement whether one agrees with it or not.

    I'm not saying they handled it well or perfectly, but they didn't ignore it at all. Anakins dreams come, unfortunately, in times where he's needed - and, in the bigger scheme, chasing a dream should never impede on actual duty. Especially in the cases of AotC and RotS, that's not even to mention that had he listened to them - especially in the case of RotS, none of the bad would've ever happened.

    The force didn't exactly choose a boy who had attachments though, it simply chose a mother/boy. That boy happened to form a serious attachment to her. I'm of the opinion that they shouldn't have parted ways in TPM, because i feel that the only way a son can grow past being attached to his mother is by actually living with her. Not by simply oneday meeting a Jedi and departing from her, only to be told by all these Jedi that he shouldn't be attached to her. They're right, of course. But telling someone can only go so far - a son has to actually learn this himself.

    His lesson doesn't come till 10 years later, he could've (should've) grown past it right there & then - but he didn't. For worse.

    - O_F
  4. TheLightSide Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2005
    star 2
    This is a great discussion thread. Because we are getting into the multi-layers of the Will of the Force.

    The Force -- Does it act crazy at random, or does it have a Plan, or somewhere in between?

    Because if the Force has a Plan...

    Then Anakin being conceived immaculately out in the middle of no where on Tatooine, and then living with his ultra-caring mother Shmi for 9 years, is a genius Plan of the Force.

    Anakin halfway through TPM seems to be a nice little boy. Mace and Yoda treat him like a total freakshow. Yoda goes as far to say that Anakin being raised by his mom, and not by a bunch of knight/monks, is a total problem.

    But what if the Force wanted it to be this way? What if the Force wants Jedi to be attached to their parents?

    Attached means being caring and loving towards someone -- not turning into a serial killer like Anakin did.

    So of course Yoda gave bad advice. But it was the only advice that he had. Yoda was raised by a bunch of knight/monks, and was probably taken from his mother and father as a little frog. So he didn't have a great perspective on relationships.

    Anakin represents the future of the Jedi. Relationships. Loving attachments. Just like his daughter Leia had with Han.

    Yoda is trying to give advice based on a past part of the Code the Force may no longer want to ber enforced.
  5. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    "Clouded, this boy's future is"
    "Grave danger i sense in his training"

    It wasn't the relationship to his mother that troubled them, it was the uncertainty of his future.

    "Your thoughts dwell on your mother"
    "I miss her"
    "Affraid to lose her, are you?
    "What does that got to with anything?"
    "Everything, fear is the power to the darkside. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to suffering. I sense much fear in you"

    Where's the scolding?

    Yet Anakin, in AotC and RotS perfectly understands the difference between attachments and compassion/unconditional love.

    "I'm a Jedi, i know i'm better than this"

    Seems to me they did a pretty good job, he just couldn't let go. I'm not saying that's his fault because, as i've said, i don't think he should ever have been taken away from his mum. But that's more Qui-Gons "fault" then the Jedi, imo, and i'm not even blaming him either. The fault Anakin carries with him is learning all the wrong things from his own flaws, knowing full well he shouldn't.

    "Can i go mom?"

    The parents either deliver the children to the Jedi themselves or they're asked to. The Jedi have never simply "taken" a child from a mother. The people that accuse the Jedi are blinded by their hatred (sometimes they're even insane), but almost always have a moment of clarity where it's obvious the Jedi aren't to blame.

    I don't know how this would go, but i also don't really see what it has to with anything. Not to mention that Luke was going off to face Vader and the Empire, whereas in the old Republic the darkside wasn't as physically represented (vader/emperor) or tempting. In the Darth Maul - Shadow Hunter novel the padawan Jedi muses about how most Jedi, who fail the trials repeatedly and leave the Order because of it, go into Republic service on a planet somewhere and try to help them as best as possible.


    WT*? When does this ever happen?


    No it's not. Caring and loving means car
  6. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    My point is that they they are ignoring what the FORCE is trying to tell them, because it's definitely saying something. They gave Anakin advice, but clearly he didn't understand it or couldn't follow it. He's a rash young man definitely, but if he couldn't follow Obi-Wan's advice about the dream with his mother, why would they think that same advice would work a second time? But the fact remains that neither Obi-Wan nor Yoda seem to try to get to the bottom of what his visions truly mean. Instead, they see the dreams having a negative affect on Anakin and try to put a general band-aid over the wound without finding out what caused the wound in the first place. They never seem to investigate WHY the Force would be sending Anakin these visions to begin with, because after Anakin's mother dies it's clear they are visions and not just nightmares. Perhaps if Anakin were to know that the Jedi were taking a more pro-active approach to his Force visions, really try to get to the bottom of them, whether the answer lies in Anakin being the chosen one, or merely just unstable, he would have been more likely to accept advice like "the fear of loss in the path to the dark side" and "death is a natural part of life." They claim that the dark side has clouded their vision, so wouldn't you be rather curious if the Force was sending Anakin messages, but no one else?
  7. PADMELUVA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2004
    star 4
    "Attached means being caring and loving towards someone -- not turning into a serial killer like Anakin did."


    there is the fundamental flaw in your argument LightSide. We all differ in the definition of the word, and this is what gives us such different opinions.

    to me, and the jedi, attachment means posessivness, and an inability, even unwillingness to let go. this leads to fear of loss, which cosses one to safeguard our attachment even more. it is this fear that is manipulated.

    to me, and the jedi, attachments does not conote forming relationships, loving someone deeply, etc., which are all good things. if you re-examine your argument, you may be able to see where i, and certainly where the jedi were coming from in forbiding "attachments" (again, see definition above).

  8. Nihilist Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 2
    I do think the force has a will but you also make choices and anakin went against it, ultimately up until ROTJ his will was more important to him, the force brought him into existance to destroy the sith, remove the evil. He instead joins the sith and pays for it, but through his deeds against the order, the marriage, the children, he is given another chance by life or the force to make the choice and reclaim his destiny. So the will of the force was for the sith to be destroyed by anakin. It's just a theory, I like it. I like to think that even though he broke rules, and went dark, life took those deeds and set them up to his future benefit, to lay the choice out again.
  9. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    Oh ok, that i can agree with. Definitely. That's not just limited to Anakin, too. The Jedi should've listened to the force far more often in the PT (Anakin/ObiWan going to Utapau together, sensing grave danger in Anakins training). They had become too relient on a Republic that cared less & less for them etc etc.

    Although one has to wonder if Anakin is unique in his visions, i don't think he necessarily is. But since he's the chosen one they should've payed more attention to it. I also agree that if Anakin knew that someone was doing something about it that he'd be far better off.

    "ANAKIN: Don't worry. Now that the Council has ordered an investigation, it won't take Master Obi-Wan long to find that bounty hunter"

    - O_F
  10. Nihilist Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 2
    How can they investigate his vision of padme dying when it was a future vision based on a possible reality. The only thing he can do is basically let it go, like yoda tells him. Until it's real how it can it be dealt with. He was being warned in this vision about a possible death, but he didn't know that, he took it as definite and brought it into reality. Yoda gave him great advice about how to not be fooled into bringing it to fruition but he ignores it and we know what happens. Bottom line- anakin wanted to be more powerful than life. The power he went after made him evil and killed padme. When he says I will not allow this vision to become real, he dooms padme and himself.
  11. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    I think the more pressing matter is AotC and the visions of his mother, if he hadn't felt so helpless there he'd never have gone on an insane powertrip - one that, at the time of RotS, had become a force on it's own.

    - O_F
  12. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    I can't understand how anyone can love another "Uncondionally". There will always be conditions, if not, then our scales of judgement would surely be flawed.

    To love unconditionally, one must be willing to love that person no matter what. But they cannot place person above all others. They cannot be willing to attach themselves to a person, place or thing. Sacrifice is an important part of unconditional love. The ability to let go of what you fear to lose. To think of others before yourself. To do that is to be a Jedi. For normal people there are always going to be conditions. But for a Jedi it is especially dangerous to have them. For it can lead to ruin.

    I know GL has said the Jedi should even love the Sith... But is this really the case? Does Yoda love Obi-Wan as much as he loves Sidious - no, which means there are differant levels of love, which also means there is hate (or if hate is too strong the lowest level would be total apathy - no love at all). So this dichotomy between love and hate is quite complex - It would not be right to say someone loves unconditionally. IF Luke had turned into a baddie, had embraced the darkside, had slaughtered younglings, had blown up entire planets, do you think Leia would still love him? No, so there is a condition to her love after all.

    But Luke loved his father unconditionally, especially after finding out the truth about him. He couldn't judge him worthy of death. He couldn't bring himself to kill him. All Luke could do was sense the good, which convinced him that his father was wroth saving. Knowing that as Darth Vader, he became a monster, Luke still couldn't bring himself to hate his father. He could hate that he threatened Leia, but he couldn't bring himself to hate him anymore for his crimes. Leia would love Luke unconditionally as well, because she too knows that there would be good in Luke.

    In the SW Universe, this unconditional love is only achievable if a Young one is picked up at very young age and trained (or brainwashed) to have certain feeling and suppress others. Anakin, Luk and Leia have all experianced attachments in their youth and hence would all be difficult if not impossible to train. I would say Jedi love and hate, but have learnt to bury their feelings of hate into a "dormant" state - so they never manifest themselves in their actions. It is like how I can hate someone but talk to them in a mild and pleasent manner.

    But Luke and Leia learned to let go of their attachments. Bail and Breha Organa taught Leia to let go of attachments and to love unconditionally. Luke was in the same boat, but didn't realize the danger that he was in, until it was almost too late. Anakin's problem was that he didn't realize that he was manipulated until those last few minutes in ROTJ, when everything starts to become crystal clear, once Luke threw down his saber.
  13. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    The point is the Force is sending Anakin visions. It really doesn't matter what they are about, but that they are happening at all. By investigating I mean trying to find out why... by meditation and asking Anakin a lot of questions. The "answer" to these visions either lie in Anakin's chosen one status or his mental instability. They need to find out which, but don't. They should have known better while Anakin was having dreams of his mother, and they should have especially known better afterwards. By the time Yoda gives Anakin this great advice in ROTS, it is far too late, we all know that. Anakin does not see it as option, and he isn't doing it because of power. Like I've said before, he's acting out of extreme fear, NOT a desire for power- not until Mustafar. Yoda knows this, "fear of loss is the path to the dark side." But apparently either he doesn't sense how truly fearful Anakin is, or Anakin is able to mask it well. I don't know how this is such a surprise to them, it happened once before. Obi-Wan especially knows how attached he is to Padme, in fact he knows they are in love, but does nothing about it. He also knows how attached Anakin was to his mother. So why is this such a surprise?
  14. mynameismyown Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2005
    star 3
    its rather confusing, but i still find it interesting that love is what brought anakin down, i wonder if lucas had a rough time when he got divorced of 'letting go' and so forth
  15. Nihilist Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 2
    Maybe the force was trying to teach him a lesson about power, you are here to destroy the sith, not be fooled into joining them on a quest to become all powerful, he couldn't handle death, he wouldn't allow himself to learn how to save those he loved and be selfless in that pursuit, a lesson he failed to understand until ROTJ.

    "Young fool, only now at the end do you understand"-sidious ROTJ

    What you seem to be not getting is yes his main motivation is fear but how do you deny that fear, with what yoda told him, with a healthy mental state of acceptance against things you cannot change not with a quest for physical power over it. He is a very delusional, confused, stubborn person. And sidious loved it.
  16. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    The powertrip inside Anakin does play a part; but it's only his reaction, the only one he thinks works, to his fear. That's the underlying and selfdestructive aspect that's always swimming around in his head - his fear. He wants power to fight against that fear, to overcome it - and his focus/lust for that power blinds him to all other possibilities. I think that's why a lot of people mistake his journey for one of power.

    I think Obi-Wans biggest mistake was to turn a blind eye to Anakin/Padme, whether he trusted Anakin too much in being able to handle it; or loved him too much to do something about it, or perhaps both. He shouldn't have ignored it, no matter how happy it made Anakin. Of course, Anakin should never have started lying and deceiving him in the first place - but his motive is the reverse to Obi-Wans, he doesn't trust him enough and he doesn't think Obi-Wan loves him enough. But that's a whole other story in itself :p

    Love didn't bring him down, fear did. Love enriched and saved his life. Fear corrupted and destroyed it.

    - O_F
  17. THEFORCEROCKS Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2004
    star 4
    I think Obi-Wans biggest mistake was to turn a blind eye to Anakin/Padme, whether he trusted Anakin too much in being able to handle it; or loved him too much to do something about it, or perhaps both. He shouldn't have ignored it, no matter how happy it made Anakin.

    Well Anakin shouldve told Obi-Wan about the marriage and he should not have been married in the first place putting Kenobi in a no win situation. Of course Anakin shouldve followed his first instinct and told the council about his marriage.

    Of course, Anakin should never have started lying and deceiving him in the first place - but his motive is the reverse to Obi-Wans, he doesn't trust him enough and he doesn't think Obi-Wan loves him enough. But that's a whole other story in itself

    Exactly just like Anakin should not have gone on a murdering spree slaughtering younglings and forcing Padme's hand on Mustafar. "I will never stop loving you but you are going down a path I cant follow."Padme SKywalker_ROTS
  18. Nihilist Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 2
    Yes, his fear of death and refusal to get beyond it drove him on his quest to be all powerful, but no one could defeat that fear for him until he was willing to do it himself. Yoda told him how, anakin wouldn't listen. What could anyone do? Anakin is 100% responsible for listening to sidious, and not yoda. I feel bad for him but he was tricked based on his fear. Kill the fear like yoda says..and you don't need sidious. Follow yoda's advice deal with it the right way and sith don't happen. That's it.
  19. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    Definitely

    I don't think there's much redeeming in Anakins choices in RotS either, he allowed himself to be tricked and fooled and payed the price for it. But i can feel much more for him in AotC, and his actions/state of mind in RotS are a direct effect of what happens in AotC. So i can see how, if certain things had gone differently - from both the Jedi and Anakin, this could've, perhaps, been avoided.

    - O_F

  20. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    It seems like rather backward lesson if the Force sends him horrific visions about death to teach him to deal with it. Why send him visions at all? Why not let the situations occur and teach him that way? If the Force "knows" enough about Anakin to send him these visions, shouldn't it know enough to gauge how he would react? Especially twice? By that logic, it's his destiny to turn, and I don't believe that at all. His visions were a lesson for everyone. A warning sign about the power of the dark side and that Anakin needed a serious intervention by Jedi, to conquer his fear, or some serious **** was going to go down. No one dug deep enough to figure that out.

    Sidious is right, and not just about Luke, but also Anakin and the Jedi.

    He sought power because it was the only way he thought he could save Padme, he was mislead into believing that. If he was lead to believe leaving the Order completely was the only way to do that, he would have. He would have done anything. His problem is fear, not power. Fear is the cause and power only became the effect after Sidious was done pouring honeyed potion in his ear.
  21. Dagobah_Dweller Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 2005
    star 4
    I'm not going to debate anything, because I'm not really in the debating mood, but, man, I love this thread. This has got to be one of the better disscussions I've ever been a part of on this board...:D

    carry on fellas
  22. Nihilist Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 2
    What exactly happened in AOTC, his mother died, and he couldn't do anything but be there when she is taken and protect her. But he wasn't and he reacts to that the wrong way, as a power hunger over the outcome. But that's just it, if he saw padme dying he should just wait for the moment and react to it, not try to fight against death itself.

    There's an excellent line in the novel about this, I wish someone would have said it in the movie.."Until the possible becomes actual, it is only a distraction". He is in the moment in ROTJ and does the right thing.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    If the Force "knows" enough about Anakin to send him these visions, shouldn't it know enough to gauge how he would react? Especially twice? By that logic, it's his destiny to turn, and I don't believe that at all. His visions were a lesson for everyone.

    No, I don't agree, the force is just showing him the future, it's a test he has to face his fear and overcome it that's the lesson, who are you anakin, it's his and his alone to deal with, are you a jedi, or a sith, big test, big failure.
    The jedi already knew the answer, there is no test for a them, but for anakin, it shows him his greatest flaw and yoda tells him how to conquer it, anakin doesn't listen...failure not of the jedi, but of anakin and him alone.
  23. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    I do agree with you here, he should have just waited and trusted that the Force gave him that vision so he would be mentally prepared in case it happened, maybe that way he could have prevented it. He should have asked himself questions like why was Obi-Wan there and I'm not? What exactly could have made Padme so scared? He could have made other choices than he did- he could have told Obi-Wan or Yoda, or immediately left with her to go to Naboo, forsaking his Jedi duty. But I don't think she would have let him anyway. He should have done a lot of things, but was so scared about the very idea of her death, and of what the Jedi would do if they found out, it drove him to madness. Tragic heros have a tragic flaw, and Anakin's has always been fear. It's that flaw which drives the hero to near insanity and a mad quest for power. That line from the novel is excellent, and it would have gone a looong way in the film.

    But while all this is very true about Anakin, I still think the Jedi dropped the ball. They both failed each other.
  24. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    About the visions, is it really the force that's sending him this? Or is he just, subconsciously, roaming the future in his dreams?

    Yoda tells him: "Very careful you must be when sensing the future, Anakin"

    This tells me that Anakins visions aren't as unique as one might make them out to be. Luke has them when he's concentrating in ESB, did the force send him that? Or did Luke penetrate the force to get that vision?

    Anakins fear is pretty dominant in his mind, does his fear manifest itself in his dreams? He gets to see what he fears most, Padme dying. Then after being denied the rank of Master, he gets to not only see Padme dying - but he finds out Obi-Wan is with her. Somewhere between those dreams a tremor changed his vision, this tremor is - most likely, Anakins jealousy and mistrust directed towards Obi-Wan. This because of the Councils decision and Padme asking him if Obi-Wan could help them.

    So it also comes down to these factors: Are the visions unique to Skywalkers? Does Anakin have a hand in controlling them, does he cause them, or is he a victim of them?

    - O_F
  25. Nihilist Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2005
    star 2
    I like this discussion, but your choices are your own, and the jedi guided him in the right direction, he chose the wrong path and the wrong leader along that route, based on his fear, which yoda tried to help him overcome.

    In life peer pressure or fear of not fitting in is tough but the choice of following or not belongs to you, so if you pick up that cigarette, drug, whatever, you have to be responsible for that action and you have to change it. C'mon he knows the sith are bad, he let sid's twist him, he joins up anyway, based on his fear, his choice, no one failed him but himself, no one saves him but himself. Yes luke helped but the choice was vader's.

    On the dreams or visions of the future..They are all tests, I'd say the force allows you to see them, and they pertain to your greatest fear but what matters is how you handle them.


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