Yoda gave bad advice to Anakin in the Temple?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by rebel777, May 21, 2005.

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  1. Obi_Frans Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    Lucas, from all of his quotes, generally and genuinely seems to believe that attachments involve a level of selfishness and greed. I don't want to speak for him or anything, but that's how he comes off when not only discussing Anakin or Star Wars - but even his view on how he wants society to grow up and become more knowledge-based instead of emotion-based.

    Luke did not have the same emotional attachments as Anakin, he had the same emotional feelings; sure, but not attachments. It's a great debate, i agree; but the saga really seems to rely on a negative view on attachments. Luke was sad when Owen/Beru died, sure, but he moved on. He never once mentions them after they've passed on and he doesn't stick to their memory as Anakin did to Shmi. That ties right into the "miss them do not, mourn them - do not" speach from Yoda. Yoda never said "don't care, don't react, don't feel" - he said "let go", Luke did just that. Anakin didn't.

    "Attachment is forbidden. Compassion - which i would define as unconditional love - is central to a Jedis life"

    That's really all we needed about attachments and the difference imo.

    Who says he doesn't? He took Anakin to a special room, secluded from the rest of the Temple and had a conversation with him. He replied to all of Anakins "questions/explanation" as best as he could. I think it's far more important to focus on that Anakin says in this instance than what Yoda does.

    "They're of pain, suffering, death" "...Someone" "Yes" "I won't let these visions come true, Master Yoda" "What must i do, Master Yoda"

    Realistically, only Yoda could've still given him such vital advice - based on what he got. Sure, it seemed like he gave him the basics of the basics. But Anakin isn't giving him anything special, he's not necessitating Yoda to somehow change the way he should adress Anakin. He's not giving him anything that can make Yoda see why this is different from other visions, he's not giving Yoda the full story.

    I agree that Anakin himself is special, i agree that he should be trained accordingly - but in this instance he got what he basically came for. He didn't really come to tell Yoda anything, he came to find out if he could prevent it from happening - and Yoda gave him what he wanted, an answer to his real question.

    Yoda cannot and should not get a bad rep for not being able to fully help Anakin, at least not in this instance. It's not up to Yoda to pry into Anakins mind and suddenly find out that he has a pregnant wife on the side - that's Anakins secret, Anakins responsibility. If he really wanted Yoda to fully help him - he'd have told him everything. That's how i see it, if someone i truly loved was in such a position and i've had the luxury of speaking to a being like Master Yoda - i'd be spilling my guts out to him.

    - O_F
  2. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    I think what Smokewars is referring to here is how Anakin had been taught his entire time at the Temple, not just the conversation he has with Yoda in ROTS. We have no proof that the Jedi ever tried to approach his situation in a different manner than any other Jedi. And from his interactions with other Jedi in the movies, it seems that that is true. They actually seem to trust him less. Anakin's problems cannot have been fixed by this one encounter with Yoda, but only by some serious rethinking of the way the Jedi should train him from the get-go.

    But Yoda could have dealt with him differently in ROTS. Like I said before, Anakin is teetering on the edge and there are several instances in ROTS where a proper nudge might have changed things. It is Anakin's responsibility to tell Yoda, but this is also a CRUCIAL part of the war. If there were any suspicion whatsoever that Anakin wasn't entirely stable then perhaps they should have pried into his mind, or at least questioned him. He's the freakin' chosen one and they're not even sure what that means! Yes, it is Anakin's fault and I'm not trying to say otherwise, but honestly, he was in a no-win situation. Both he and Padme did not want him to abandon the Jedi in the time of greatest need, and telling Yoda about Padme could have resulted in his expulsion. I understand his fear of that. And on the other hand, Padme could die. I understand his fear of that as well. That doesn't make it RIGHT, but understandable. It would be really hard for any of us to truly say what we would do in his position.
  3. Smokewars Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2002
    star 1
    OB-FRANS -
    I think a key problem is that Lucas's definition of "attachment" is fundamentally different than the definition of attachment according to any English language dictionary. If what you say is true, and it very well might be, then Lucas automatically integrates in his definition a negative connotation that is not a part of the standard definition. My definition of "attachment" does not equal "unhealthy obsession or possessiveness" because I base its meaning on what I have been taught and what I know from my experience. But Yoda's definition does include this automatic connotation. So if Lucas (Yoda) assumes that everyone agrees with his personal definition of attachment, and I (Anakin) understand the meaning of the word as something else, then some fault does lie with Lucas/Yoda for not clarifying terms. You can't just say my misunderstanding would only be my fault. Sure, if I ran out and killed a bunch of people based on my misunderstanding, THAT would clearly be my fault, but here, we're talking about communication. Sure, it's semantics, but it is always the role of the presenter to clarify his terms in persuasive debate or a speech. The burden of clearly defining terms goes to the teacher if the teacher expects to clearly impart a lesson; the student can ask for clarification, but only if he understands that something isn't being clearly defined in the first place. And generally, students don't ask probing questions to challenge their teachers - maybe one kid in thirty will do that; the rest will tow the line - either to do well for the grade, or to just not call attention to themselves and to avoid dragging out the lesson. Anakin didn't want to call attention to himself or drag out the lesson, so he nodded his head and went back to Palpatine, where the message was more seductive. That's his fault, but it could have been avoided by one or two more hours (or five minutes) of conversation in which Yoda actually made clear that according to Jedi views, getting rid of attachment does not mean getting rid of love or compassion. He could have just said, "Don't misunderstand, Anakin. Attachment does not mean ... it means ..." You can't just say it should have been clear to Anakin; the teacher is the one who is responsible for making things clear. Yoda needed to do that; clearly, Anakin came to him looking for something, Yoda should have made sure that there was no way Anakin could walk out of there with the wrong idea in his head. But instead, Yoda quoted Jedi scripture, and didn't bother going any further, for a boy who even non-Jedi moviegoers chomping on popcorn could tell needed a little more. In ESB, something seemed a little more personally invested about Yoda. His advice was always very clear. There was no room for doubt. Here, there was.
  4. Obi_Frans Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    That's true, but Anakin never really makes that clear himself. In fact, all of his focus is supposedly on doing everything he can to save Padme - he's willing to murder and betray the Jedi in her name, but he wasn't willing to tell them the truth. That says something about his own priorities.

    As for the Jedi not trusting him, i don't think that's entirely fair. They trust him with the lives of their own, the lives of the citizens and the power that he wields. They trusted him enough to make him a full fledged Jedi Knight, they trusted him with a seat on the council and one of the most important missions we've ever seen in the saga - which was spying on Palpatine. The only person that doesn't trust him is Mace Windu.

    The actual training of Anakin seems to, i agree, have been pretty standard. But essentially, it did work. They thought him wrong from right, he just chose to reject it. There's never a situation where his Jedi-teachings fail him, but there are plenty where he simply rejects what he's been thought. The teachers could be blamed for not teaching him properly, i agree - and to a certain degree, they should be. But they did not fail in teaching Anakin, they thought him right - it's everything outside of the Jedi (Sith, Shmi) that thought him wrong. They failed in making sure whether Anakin believed in what he was thought.

    But Yoda gave Anakin what he was looking for - a "no" on whether he can guarantee him that somehow Padme will live. That's my whole point, Anakin did get what he wanted. That he didn't agree with it is up to him.

    Of course Yoda is more open in ESB - want to know why? Because he knows exactly what Luke is talking about. Luke goes as far as describing the city, the persons and asking Yoda on what his perception of their fates is. That's the difference, Yoda is the source of reaction here - not the source of action. He can only react to the person that comes looki
  5. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    It's really not fair to say that Anakin would murder the Jedi in her name but wouldn't tell the truth. The gravity of the situation has changed astronomically since he had that conversation with Yoda. I have no doubt if at that time you asked him "What would you rather do, tell Yoda about Padme or murder and betray all the Jedi?" he would have chosen the latter. But due to the all the circumstances that happen between his meeting with Yoda and when he cuts Mace's arm off, his priorities get screwed up. In his mind he is left with no choice. But it was not always so.

    What Anakin has been taught doesn't fail him, but was he taught ENOUGH? He is literally doing what he feels is right, what he feels is his only option at the time. His mind is pretty screwed up by then but he is always doing what he thinks is right in his heart. But you're right, they failed to teach Anakin to actually believe he what he was taught.

    The Force chose a mother yes- but by association they also chose a boy with a mother. And he would naturally be attached to her. If the Force expected the Jedi to immediately find him and NOT develop an attachment to her, they would have led the Jedi to him sooner. If Anakin is meant to be the chosen one, then the Force would not be so lackadaisical about how he grows up. It obviously wanted Anakin to know that kind of love- because in the end, it's his knowledge and remembrance of that love, which saves his ass from the dark side.
  6. Obi_Frans Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    Love, yes. Love is the most powerful tool in the world and it saves his soul (not to mention that it "completes" his mothers), it also could've saved his wife and the galaxy - but he was too blind to notice.

    But love = not attachment, the force didn't count on Anakin being so attached to his mother that he'd grow up emotionally dependant on others. He did that himself. He partly couldn't help it since he left at the age of 9. But that's not something the force planted there - that's something he created and wouldn't let go of. Qui-Gon was ment to encounter Anakin on Tatooine, i have no doubt about that - but whether he was ment to take him....i, personally, don't think so. But that's opening a whole other can of worms.

    I was pretty radical when i said that wasn't i :p

    Ok i agree, BUT i still think it's a pretty telling thing that he refused to tell them about her. Even if she brought it up. It's ironic to me how he claims to want to do everything he can to help her - but he won't tell the truth. No matter what the consequence - if helping Padme was his first priority, then so be it. Do what she wants, tell Obi-Wan, tell Yoda if you have to, heck - confess to Mace.

    It still comes down to a lie - he betrays them because they "stood in the way" of something he'd been purposefully hiding them from. But, that's not what this thread is about - so i'll drop it.

    I disagree.

    It's pretty clear until Mustafaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrr that he feels and knows that everything he's doing is wrong. Heck he's crying his eyes out after slaughtering the Seperatist leaders.

    I'd say he's literally doing what he feels he needs to, not what he feels is right.

    "Agreeing with RS, now that's something i haven't experienced since oh-well before RotS was born" :p

    - O_F
  7. quiller Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2005
    star 2
    To me what REBEL said:

    ?The Force chose a mother yes- but by association they also chose a boy with a mother. And he would naturally be attached to her. If the Force expected the Jedi to immediately find him and NOT develop an attachment to her, they would have led the Jedi to him sooner. If Anakin is meant to be the chosen one, then the Force would not be so lackadaisical about how he grows up. It obviously wanted Anakin to know that kind of love- because in the end, it's his knowledge and remembrance of that love, which saves his ass from the dark side.?

    Is a good example of what SMOKEWARS said:

    ?I think a key problem is that Lucas's definition of "attachment" is fundamentally different than the definition of attachment according to any English language dictionary.?

    I do not totally agree that the force wanted Anakin to have a loving family ( He was raised in a broken home). I do agree that it was remembering what promised his mother and what he was supposed to be about that helped turn him from the dark side. The key here is I think Lucas wanted us to see that in the final act it was giving up all his bad attachments that lead him to be turned from the dark side and reappear as a force ghost. Yes he remembered love and yes in the dictionary meaning of attachment had attachments with his mother. Yet it was his bad form of attachment with Padma that helped fuel his drive to be all powerful that lead him to the dark side in the first place. He saw this with Luke and it was his full love in memory of his mother and Padma that lead him to be able to give up everything, his desire to be all powerful and lead the galaxy and risk his life in saving his son. Previously he had shown that he would have not risked sacrificing his life to save Padma he wanted to be with Padma not just Padma living. It had all been about him before now it was not.
  8. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    True enought.

    LOL, I meant FORMER, not latter. ;)

    Well, yes. He feels what he's doing, killing people, is wrong. But he feels like he's doing the right thing for Padme. And then, when his mind gets all crazy he feels like he's doing the right thing for the Galaxy. This really doesn't make logical sense, which only goes to prove how confused and messed up he was.

    Anakin/Darth does what he does because he believes he's doing it for the good of the Universe. -- Hayden Christensen

    Clearly, he's a bad man with some serious issues... but in a true twist of irony you can still sort of see his Jedi training affecting him.
  9. Obi_Frans Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    Did you now [face_devil]

    True, it's a maze of lies/deceit/pointofviews/aspirations/etc/etc that can only describe Anakins state at this point - but that's the darkside for us, and it ain't a pretty or logical sight. The beauty is that isn't supposed to be, George has been pulling mindjobs on us fans for years - and RotS is his crowning achievement :p

    - O_F
  10. MasterMak55 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2005
    star 1
    Well Mace Windu seems to be the Jedi who makes all the key decisions for the Jedi. Whereas Yoda takes a backseat, It's Mace that is taking the Jedi down that path they take. Ever since the battle @ Geinosis in ATOTC, hell even since TPM, Mace seems to show little trust for Anakin. From the right off they sensed danger from him and instead of addressing the issues, they allowed it to fester while they (The Jedi council) buried their heads in the sand. It can be argued over the decisions he (Mace) makes and whether it was wise to do this or do that. But generally Mace seems to speak for the whole council. And Anakin has every right to think the whole council are holding back on him, did you hear Ki Adi Mundi suggest Obi-Wan should go instead of Anakin - even though Anakin has saved Obi-Wans life many times and is more powerful (Anakin seems to take that quite well). It can be argued Anakin doesn't have the wisdom with his power and he is therefore a liability - But do the Jedi know of how to build a relationship of trust? Yes, sometimes they should give Anakin the responsibility and then see what he does with it. But they never trust him, yet Anakin is quite forgiving many a time - even if he lets slip a odd arrogant/angry remark. Remember this is a boy they brought up from 9 years old, this was the kid they called the Chosen One.

    As for trusting him with the Palpatine spying mission - to me that seems more like a test they have set him. To see whose side he is on - Will he support Palpatine in deminishing the Councils powers (The Jedi fear losing what power they already hold) or will he side with the Jedi - Besides who else couldv'e done this mission for them? Anyway, He eventually discovers the truth and tells Mace - But Mace is still doubtfull and IMO to his own peril.

    It always seems from Anakins point of view that they are holding something back from him, some knowledge, some of their doubts. It can be said it is the Jedi who are not open with their feelings. And this from the people who are supposed to be mindful of others... It's okay saying Anakin lied to Yoda and Yoda didn't know the true extent of Anakins problem - but isn't Yoda supposed to be able to sense things like this (Sidious does doesn't he?) - Yoda should have been more proactive in his advice to Anakin, should have probed him with questions to dig more out if he couldn't sense it himself. Look how sidious digs out the information to get his point across - That's why sidious wins the war over ankins heart and that is why the Jedi failed - They never put trust in Anakin - While Sidious put total turst in Anakin, he trusted him with his life (The duel with Mace is sufficient proof of that). Throughout the series, when people have put faith in Anakin (Qui-Gon said- hw was "The Chosen One") He has delivered, just as Luke discovered. Anakin seems to be the kind of person who wants people to put their trust in him, a person who wants the responsibility, the power, the glory, he wants more and he knows he shouldn't - That is his nature.
  11. Smokewars Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2002
    star 1
    OBI-FRANS:

    You asked me a question a few posts back on what my definition of attachment is. My definition is not really mine, it really belongs to Webster's, but I'll reprint it: Attachment - n 1. Something that fastens one thing to another. 2. A tie of loyalty or affection. 3. A supplementary part. 4. The seizure of property by legal writ.

    There is nothing in the definition to imply negativity. In fact, #2 meaning is actually wholly positive, and modifies the positive relationship between Luke and Leia, Han and Chewie, Obi-Wan and Yoda, or my brother and me. Nothing negative about it whatsoever. Just to confirm, I went over to American Heritage and they give the same definitions. And in Roget's Thesaurus, the same meaning is given. Lucas and Yoda were talking about possessiveness and greed leading to obsession, an unhealthy attachment, a dependency. But Yoda's explanation seemed to condemn "attachment" as a whole when he meant "obsession and possession." He couldn't have meant all attachment is bad because healthy, everyday, normal, emotional attachments (meaning as per #2 in Webster's) actually saved the galaxy, led to a loving relationship between Han and Leia, allowed Obi to appear before Luke, allowed Luke to coax out the buried Anakin.

    And before anyone says attachment and love are different, remember, they are only different according to your understanding of what Lucas means. That still doesn't get around the fact that Roget's Thesaurus lists "ATTACHMENT" AS A SYNONYM FOR "LOVE." You can say attachments and love are different, but those are subjective definitions. They do not account for the objective meaning, which most people depend upon.

    The point is, the adjective is what gives a word its connotation, not the noun. So to say all "attachment" is bad is, at best, a bad definition of terms, and at worst, dead wrong. For example, you might say that "love" is always a good thing. But maybe not if I say, "deranged love" or "murderous love" or "obsessive love" or "psychotic love." Yoda left it too easy for Anakin to misinterpret, or to fit it to his own desired meaning. A good teacher would leave no room for doubt, a clairvoyant Master even moreso. Saying all attachment is bad is like me saying "Steak is bad" without quaifying "POISONED steak is bad." Attachment is not the problem; unhealthy attachment is. Yoda failed to make the distinction, which made it easier for Anakin to say, "He means 'rejoice when loved ones die' which is heartless, so screw this!" Again, Anakin's choice is his own at the end of the day, and he is to blame for his bad decisions, but as far as stopping the fall or trying to intervene, Yoda remained pretty passive and overreliant on a proverb, despite the obvious difference between the traumatized Chosen One and Joe Schmo Padawan.
  12. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10

    What Lucas is saying is that attachments to people and things can lead to very bad things. It can lead to greed, possessivness, obsessivness and jealousy. Fear, anger and hate at these things will result in bad things. In the case of Anakin Skywalker, he's someone who loves too much and thus as a result, he cannot help himself. He wants to control people and things. He doesn't get the fundamental message of no attachments. For regular people, it's something can become dangerous. Look at all stalkers out there, in this world. There are people who become terrified and in some cases, suffer greatly as a result of such behavior. Or people who love someone so much, that they'll hurt others who will get in the way. Leading to violent and dangerous results.

    Now take Anakin. Here's someone who is in that same situation. Only he can become corrupted by the power that he weilds. Here's someone who feels that he has to become all powerful, because a Sith Lord tells him that he will be. Sidious is a large part of the problem. You can blame Yoda, Mace Windu, Obi-wan Kenobi and Qui-gon Jinn all you want. But deep down, it's Darth Sidious that's the problem. He's the one who is telling Anakin what he wants to hear, not what he needs to hear. Half the
  13. Smokewars Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2002
    star 1
    I'm not sure if you read my second post, seeing as you responded to an earlier one. And I'm not going to retype what I have already said (although you should read it because it's good ;-), except this: Just because poisoned steak is bad for you does not mean all steak is bad for you. So I would not counsel against "all steak," just to save myself the time of giving the full explanation. Likewise, just because some terrorists are Basque or Arab or Irish, I would not counnsel that all Basque or Arab or Irish people are better off avoided. So just because someone forms deep and lasting attachments (which is a synonym for love, as well as affection or connection, according to our language, if not Yoda's) does not mean that the attachments will automatically lead to greed, hate, etc. So for Yoda to condemn attachment in general, rather than warn against a particular type of negative attachment, knowing what he knew and sensing what he sensed about Anakin, very poorly represented his case and only served to further alienate Anakin rather than pull him back in. It did nothing to fight against Anakin's conflicted mind.

    "You can blame Yoda, Mace, etc., but the real problem is Sidious" - You act like it's an either/or scenario, like it must be one or the other. That is faulty. No one lives in a bubble. Every man, woman, and child is affected by everything happening around them. This is not about placing blame on Yoda; it's about looking in the mirror and asking "Could I have done better, tried harder?" I don't think Yoda sits in Dagobah for the next twenty years blaming Sideous and Anakin the Idiot Man-Boy for the fall of the Jedi. I think he has the guts to look himself in the mirror (or swamp) and say, "What was my role in this? What more could I have done? What can I learn from Qui-Gon?" That's just the kind of stand-up little dude Yoda is.
  14. MasterMak55 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2005
    star 1
    =D=I couldn't have said it better myself ^^^^ I think more people should read your posts smokewars... they're enlightening.
  15. TheLightSide Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2005
    star 2
    Smokewars. You have done a great job. I am printing off all of your posts for further reading and study.

    It is no secret that I believe that the Force is more than just a collection of energy channeled by midi-chlorians. I believe that it decides what it wants to do by guiding and with-holding persons ability to feel the Force.

    I believe that the Force wanted Anakin to 'fess up to his relationship with Padme to Yoda at the pint we are debating, to strongly introduce the concept of marriage into the Jedi in a totally positive way. Sadly, that whole concept to the Jedi will have wait to be re-addressed when Leia wants to continue to use her Force abilities.

    Obviously I believe that the simple fact that the Chosen One appears having been raised by a parent for 9 years, I believe shows that the Force was trying to show that parents could and should raise Jedi younglings as they are trained.

    Thank you so much for getting into the definition of 'attachment' and what it means to all of us, compared to what it means to Lucas.
  16. Falon Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2005

    You are correct about that Smokewars, in the novel Yoda blamed himself for the fall of the Jedi Order. He came to the conclusion that the reason the jedi fell was because he was training Jedi to be the Jedi that trained him all those years ago. He didnt let the order change and because of that the sith were able to take over because they did change. The reason Yoda in EP.V is so great is because he has learned from his own errors and is now much wiser then the Yoda we see in the prequals. Although Yoda in my oppinon gave Anakin the correct advise Anakin just didnt want to hear it.

    Now you say that love inst bad and I agree with you emotions in and of themselves are not bad. Now the problem comes into play when the situation of the one having the powers of a jedi has such feelings. We all know that the tempation to abuse power is easy for anyone. This is the reason the Jedi Order for so long has done their best to deny such influence from their jedi. The main problem is that the jedi were faced with the finding of the "Chosen one" and having to go against their own mandate of NOT training those that are too old. They really had no choice but to train him because they knew the sith were still around by the time he came to them. The only choice was to train him because if they didnt the SITH would. They should have delt with him much differently then they have other jedi. In the end the only one to truly blame is " Anakin", he just made all the wrong choices and that led him right to the place he didnt want to be "ALONE". It is true he had Sidious but he didnt have any choice but to be with him "HE HAD NO ONE ELSE". Anakin loved and in the end he destroyed eveything he loved and everyone he loved, love can be a problem in the hands of one with such power.
  17. Jedi-Queen Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    "Land of the Free, Land of Hope and Glory, Where people aspire to the A******* Dream! Am I right?"

    Just as I thought, you're wrong [shocked!].
    As I said, you should not assume.
  18. neutralsideforce Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 16, 2005
    star 4
    I-II-III-TV Series-IV-V-IV (fixed). Don't mess with that!
  19. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    About attachments-- I'll just throw this in here for giggles.

    I've been reading "The Last of the Jedi" and while it is a Scholastic book, Watson does a really amazing job with the Obi-Wan characterization. It's the first post-ROTS book to be released.

    "Once there was something I wanted, something forbidden by the Jedi code," Obi-Wan said. "Qui-Gon said something to me then. He said, maybe in a different galaxy things will change. The Jedi will change. He is the change, Ferus. And I think... in the new order, attachments will be a strength. Maybe this is how the galaxy will be saved. So yes, you are still a Jedi."

    ---

    "When he told Ferus that attachments could be a source of strength, he had been speaking for himself, too. The tug that had brought him to Ferus's side had been more than a concern for Luke. It had reconnected him to something he had lost. He had spent so many months thinking of the dead. Dreaming of them. Now it was time to join the living.

    That was why watching over Luke was so crucial. That was why he couldn't lose hope, couldn't falter. Everything he knew was gone, and when things changed, they would not change in the way he wanted. He would not get back all that he'd lost. He realized now how much of his bitterness had been tied up in the simple, childish wish-- to have back what he'd loved.

    What he loved was gone forever.

    What would come he couldn't see.

    What he had to do to make it happen, he would do. He would do it out of more than duty now. He would do it with his heart."



    -- Jude Watson, "Legacy of the Jedi"
  20. Jedi-Queen Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    Interesting! Was Obi referring to just attachment in general
    or was he speaking about someone he wished [in the past] that
    he could have become attached to?

    "Once there was something I wanted, something forbidden by the Jedi code"
  21. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    I think he's talking about Siri Tachi. In the EU it alludes that he had feelings for her.
  22. ObiWan506 Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2003
    star 7
    "Yoda gave bad advice to Anakin in the Temple?

    No, that's exactly what the Jedi do. They let go of any attachments. Even in the novel Obi-Wan made it a point to say that even though he knew Yoda since he was an infant, he would sacrifice Yoda's life if it meant it could end the war ... even if only a day early. Yoda would've done the same with Obi-Wan. You see? Attachments are not a part of the Jedi ... unless your name is Anakin.
  23. jedi_master_ousley Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2002
    star 8
  24. Smokewars Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2002
    star 1
    "Attachments are not a part of the Jedi ..."

    That's not true. Attachments are not a part of the Jedi Order or the Jedi Code or the Jedis of the PT, all of which falls. They are a part of:

    1) Qui-Gon: Who is the first to learn to cross-over, leading Yoda and Obi to relearn what they had been taught and how they taught it to others.
    2) Anakin: Who falls because of obsessive attachment, but ultimately fulfills the prophecy based on a latent emotional attachment to his son.
    3) Obi-Wan: Who attaches himself to Luke, and as such, gains the power to cross over and guide him.
    4) Yoda: Who attaches himself to Luke, foregoes many institutional code rules (such as training at birth), gives more personally invested advice than he did in the PT, and learns to cross over and reappear before those with an emotional connection to him.
    5) Luke: Who at one point almost lets obsessive attachment endanger his sister, but who also confronts his father with emotion, overcomes his hatred by remembering that it his father to whom he is emotionally bonded, destroys the Sith by awakening an emotional connection in Anakin, sees old Jedi that he is emotionally attached to.
    6) Leia: Who senses and saves Luke when is in danger, who falls in love with Han to perhaps start the lineage of Jedi again.

    This is to say nothing of all the positive things that attachments brought to non-Jedi in the movies (except Leia's attachment to Jabba - ugh!)

    Bottomline, it's the PT Jedi who spurn attachment as a whole and they lose. It's the OT Jedi who distinguish selfless attachment and selfish attachment, embrace the good and kick out the bad, and they win. Attachment in itself is not bad, just the sort of attachment that leads to unhealthy behavior. That is what makes Yoda's good-intentioned advice bad - he shouldn't have boiled it down to saying all attachment (which is a synonym for love) is bad; he should have clarified that selfish attachment is bad, while selfless attachment is good, especially in dealing with the conflicted Chosen One.
  25. jedi_master_ousley Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2002
    star 8
    Right. The Jedi of the Old Republic discouraged attachment of all kinds, and that was a contributing factor to their downfall. Yoda and Ben learned from the Jedi's mistakes by the time of the OT.
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