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Yoda living on Coruscant is wrong.

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Binary_Sunset, May 31, 2002.

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  1. sdj

    sdj Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2002
    You people are forget something if yoda lived on Dagobah in the prequels then anakin would know about it and it would not work for Yoda to hide there.

    Who is to say that Yoda is not native to a planet like Dagobah? Just because we see him on Coruscant in the prequels doesn't mean that he is not from a place like that. But if the Jedi are the peace keepers of the galaxy then why would they not be in the capital?

    It's like asking why the CIA are found in Washington DC and then questioning why the President is there also.
     
  2. Strilo

    Strilo Manager Emeritus star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Good point! If Yoda was on Dagobah then the Emperor and Vader would have known and they would have taken him out. Period. No way around that one. Funny how people complaining about plot holes and inconsistancies in the new films are suggesting things that would be far worse.

     
  3. New_Hope

    New_Hope Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2003
    I think Coruscant is a concrete version of Dagobah, teeming with life. Seems only natural that Yoda and the others spend much time in a place that has a high concentration of the force. -Life creates it, makes it grow...

    Remember? ;)

    Just because one planet has life flying in speeders, and the other has it crawling on the ground, that doesn´t make them any different, Force-wise.
     
  4. Glorian-Eversea

    Glorian-Eversea Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 26, 2002
    In response to a host of comments, I clearly said Yoda didn't need a great deal more screen time, rather its the quality of that screentime that is so lacking.

    I really feel as though Lucas has a major misunderstanding of what a prequel trilogy needs to do storywise.
    It needs to expound and expand upon what we already know of the character in SUBSTANTIVE WAYS.
    Showing Yoda leaping around with a lightsaber really isn't substantive. Yapping with the younglings really isn't substantive.
    Yoda seems to exist in an environment and style that is wholly opposite from what we see in ESB.
    Yet never does Lucas address this with dialogue. The best line in my opinion is when he comments on Jedi being arrogant in AOTC.
    Beyond that, we never get to see him consider the morality of leading the clones into combat.
    This pales compared to the great deal of substantive insight in ESB. Thats one of the many reasons why the PT seems so lacking.

    Glorian
     
  5. royalguard96

    royalguard96 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 13, 2001
    Glorian, you're picking on how Yoda is characterized, not what his environment is.

    There have been some great points about how Yoda living on Coruscant is entirely consistent with his character. And I made some points about how his characterization stays consistent as well. A pity they've been ignored in favor of people trying so hard to find something else to pick on regarding the PT.
     
  6. Durwood

    Durwood Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    I really feel as though Lucas has a major misunderstanding of what a prequel trilogy needs to do storywise.
    It needs to expound and expand upon what we already know of the character in SUBSTANTIVE WAYS.
    Showing Yoda leaping around with a lightsaber really isn't substantive. Yapping with the younglings really isn't substantive.


    Perhaps this is what you'd expect in a normal prequel, but these aren't normal prequels, they're STAR WARS prequels.

    Now why do I make the distinction? Because Lucas isn't making these movies to fill in the gaps of what we already know, he's making them like we don't know how the story ends. That's the key to understanding and appreciating the prequels. In fact, I believe thinking of them as prequels does them an injustice. They're actually the first three chapters of a six chapter story. They're not filling in the gaps, they're leading us in a logical progression to the next chapter.

    In other words, Yoda is introduced in Episode I. That's Yoda. He lives on Coruscant. He's not supposed to live on Degobah because you're not supposed to know he winds up fleeing in fear to that slimey mud hole of a planet. You're supposed to see Yoda and accept the character as he is presented. In other words, you need to watch the films in order with no preconceived notions. The prequels are not meant to explain how Yoda gets to Degobah, he's going to go to Degobah as a result of the story's natural progression.

    In a way, Lucas is writing the prequels more for future fans than for current fans, which is probably the smart thing to do since there is no way he is going to please those fans who think they know STAR WARS better than he.
     
  7. TadjiStation

    TadjiStation Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2001
    Showing Yoda leaping around with a lightsaber really isn't substantive. Yapping with the younglings really isn't substantive.

    I believe his skills with the Force in combat ARE substantial to the character. It's good to see Yoda as a different being in the PT than he is in the OT. This isn't inconsistent, it's character arc, as you yourself indicated in a previous post.

    I agree with you that the presentation thus far has been less than excellent, but we still have one more movie to go. It sounds as if you've already thrown your hands up in the air and given up entirely. Give Lucas one more chance. You never know what can happen.

    Yoda seems to exist in an environment and style that is wholly opposite from what we see in ESB.

    Again, this is a GOOD thing. Yoda's learning doesn't stop just because he's the head of the Jedi order, or because he's so old. Knowledge is gained from experience, through and through. Perhaps Yoda is the way he is in ESB because he regrets his actions during the clone wars. Whatever the reason, Lucas has time to expand upon this. Let's just hope that he does.

    Yet never does Lucas address this with dialogue. The best line in my opinion is when he comments on Jedi being arrogant in AOTC.
    Beyond that, we never get to see him consider the morality of leading the clones into combat.


    Remember, the beginning of the clone wars happens at the END of AOTC. Perhaps the moralizing will happen in Episode III. I'm hoping that it does, as Yoda's decisions, as the head of the Jedi order, are directly linked to the fall of the Jedi. My hope is that Lucas expands upon this, for the sake of the newer generation of fans, and those that will see the movies in numerical order.



     
  8. Glorian-Eversea

    Glorian-Eversea Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Royal Guard,
    My original point: It is my belief that characterization is the core issue here. I believe the reason the issue has surfaced time and time again is because Yoda is different, but we really don't substantively explore why. But why spend more time with a dumb character like Yoda when we can waste it completely with Jar Jar Binks?

    Durwood,
    I agree with your comments. I do believe you have accurately expressed Lucas' vision for the prequels. I also believe this was a poor route to take and has left him floundering. Regardless of what Lucas intended, we have been introduced to Yoda. We do know Obi Wan. Etc Etc. Lucas can't rewrite the universe to make it so. Nor can he make a reality of the notion that people will watch the movies 1-6 when doing so leads to a hindering of 4-6 because of gross inconsistencies. Those inconsistencies begin with the obvious higher level of technology in 1-3 and undermine the Darth Vader as a villain.

    Also, there is no better way to experience the revelation that Darth vader is Luke's father than witnessing the trilogies in the order in which they were filmed. I hold that the OT introductions of the characters are better than those in the PT, without exception.

    Tadji,
    Here's hoping for a great Episode III.

    Glorian

     
  9. Durwood

    Durwood Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    I agree with your comments. I do believe you have accurately expressed Lucas' vision for the prequels. I also believe this was a poor route to take and has left him floundering.

    Floundering how, exactly? From what I've seen in interviews, behind the scenes material, and the DVD commentaries, Lucas has a very firm grasp on the story he wants tell.

    Regardless of what Lucas intended, we have been introduced to Yoda. We do know Obi Wan. Etc Etc. Lucas can't rewrite the universe to make it so.

    This is why I said that I think he's writing more for future fans than current fans, although a significant majority of his current fans greatly enjoy the prequels.

    Nor can he make a reality of the notion that people will watch the movies 1-6 when doing so leads to a hindering of 4-6 because of gross inconsistencies. Those inconsistencies begin with the obvious higher level of technology in 1-3 and undermine the Darth Vader as a villain.

    Gross inconsistencies? First of all, the technological inconsistencies aren't really inconsistencies to begin with since the story starts in a time of peace and prosperity and moves to a time of war. The devolution of technology is in fact very realistic. Just look at the war torn Middle East for a real world example. Whatever inconsistencies remain because of the relative crudity of 1980's effects technology will be eliminated with the rumored Ultimate Editions.

    As for revealing that Vader is Luke's father, you're right, this isn't going to be the same surprise that it was in 1980. But to this I say, "Get over it already!" There are plenty of other surprises of equal magnitude throughout the saga for folks to enjoy. For instance, Anakin slaughtering the entire Tusken camp is one such surprise (my jaw hit the floor during the confession scene when I realized that he had slaughtered the women and children). Anakin turning to the dark side and becoming Darth Vader will surely be one of the most memorable scenes in the entire saga. For people watching the films in order, Obi-Wan's death in A NEW HOPE will no doubt rattle them, especially when you consider his central role in the prequels (I bet people will expect Obi-Wan to escape and will be shocked into silence when he gets cut down). in RETURN OF THE JEDI, seeing Vader become Anakin and save his son will be another huge moment, made all the more powerful now that we know Anakin's story (even with the story incomplete, Vader's turn to good stands now as the most powerfully emotional scene in the entire saga, thanks to the considerable depth added by the prequel films).

    I hold that the OT introductions of the characters are better than those in the PT, without exception.

    "You'll find that a great many of the truths we cling to depend entirely on our own point of view."
     
  10. Glorian-Eversea

    Glorian-Eversea Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 26, 2002
    "This is why I said that I think he's writing more for future fans than current fans, although a significant majority of his current fans greatly enjoy the prequels."

    Funny, without exception I personally know of no OT fans that enjoy the prequels _ to a single person. Your "significant majority" comment is obviously limited to your own personal experience as there can be no definitive proof of this.

    As for "floundering," to discuss that would be to bring up nearly every basher/gusher conflict of the last five years. No thanks.

    Writing for future fans seems rather ill-advised as no one can predict what art or art motifs will capture the imagination of future peoples.

    Obviously, I think the PT is destined to be ignored and forgotten by "future fans." Of course, only time will bear this theory to be true or false.

    Glorian

     
  11. royalguard96

    royalguard96 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 13, 2001
    Royal Guard,
    My original point: It is my belief that characterization is the core issue here.


    You're missing the point of this thread. It talks about where Yoda is living, not his characterization.

    Oh, and you might want to check my sig. That's at least one OT fan who loves the PT. Somehow, I have the feeling there might even be one or two more, hard as it is to believe....
     
  12. -_-_-_-_-_-

    -_-_-_-_-_- Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 28, 2002
    Obviously, I think the PT is destined to be ignored and forgotten by "future fans." Of course, only time will bear this theory to be true or false.


    I will have to disagree with you strongly here. Future fans will not know Star Wars as two different trilogies, the OT and the PT, but merely as one saga that was completed 20 years after originally began. This next generation of fans will also be watching the entire saga in order, and won't have the "OT bias" as many older fans of today do.
     
  13. anidanami124

    anidanami124 Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 24, 2002
    Funny, without exception I personally know of no OT fans that enjoy the prequels _ to a single person. Your "significant majority" comment is obviously limited to your own personal experience as there can be no definitive proof of this.

    Really I'm the fan of the OT and the PT. I know people who are fansof both. Not ever one comes to SW forums. So really we don't know what ever fan will ever think about the OT or PT.
     
  14. -_-_-_-_-_-

    -_-_-_-_-_- Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 28, 2002
    Not trying to hop onto the bandwagon, but I was an "OT" fan long before TPM or any of the other prequels were released. I suppose I am in the minority with royal because I support both trilogies as exceptional achievements in filmmaking.
     
  15. petmytauntaun

    petmytauntaun Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2002
    "Funny, without exception I personally know of no OT fans that enjoy the prequels _ to a single person."

    I am a 29 year old, lifelong fan of Star Wars. I have been a fan for as long as I can remember.

    My first Christmas memories include getting a Hammerhead & Luke Skywalker figure as part of my gifts.

    I don't really remember seeing the original release of Star Wars in theaters, but I remember seeing it on T.V. growing up and I remember seeing both Ep.V & VI for the first time in theaters very well.

    I enjoy the PT.

    But by the same token, I'm not a mindless gusher who can't see that there are some faults there...But I see at least "some" faults in all of the Star Wars movies...Doesn't stop me from loving them.

    But that's just me.
     
  16. anidanami124

    anidanami124 Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 24, 2002
    Dash I'm with you to. I like both the OT and the PT. All 5 SW movies are in the top ten fav movies that I like. And I don't really have a problem with Yoda living on Coruscant.
     
  17. Durwood

    Durwood Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    Chalk me up as another OT fan who loves the prequels. And I personally know of at least 10 other people who feel exaclty the same way. I also have a couple of friends who are fans because of the prequels.

    So much for that little theory.
     
  18. Strilo

    Strilo Manager Emeritus star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2001
    I am a 29 year old, lifelong fan of Star Wars. I have been a fan for as long as I can remember.

    I don't really remember seeing the original release of Star Wars in theaters, but I remember seeing it on T.V. growing up...

    I enjoy the PT.

    But by the same token, I'm not a mindless gusher who can't see that there are some faults there...But I see at least "some" faults in all of the Star Wars movies...Doesn't stop me from loving them.

    But that's just me.


    That is not just you. That is also EXACTLY ME. I am also 29 and down the board what I quoted here is something I would say exactly. Do NOT assume that because someone likes the new films that they must not have grown up with the old films and the whole Star Wars experience. Star Wars, Empire and Jedi WERE my childhood. I had all the same toys, all the same loves, all the same drunk discussions about Star Wars when I got older...

    Don't try to put Star Wars fans who like all five films in a box so that you feel better or whatever the case may be. There ARE people out there JUST LIKE YOU who grew up with Star Wars when it came out who love and embrace the new films alongside the old ones. And there are a LOT of us.

     
  19. -_-_-_-_-_-

    -_-_-_-_-_- Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 28, 2002
    But by the same token, I'm not a mindless gusher who can't see that there are some faults there...But I see at least "some" faults in all of the Star Wars movies...Doesn't stop me from loving them.


    I understand where you are coming from, but I think it is rather unfair of you to label supporters of the PT gushers, much less say they do not aknowledge the PT's faults, what you're doing is almost as bad with all due respect. You could choose any random PT supporter and ask them what faults TPM or AOTC have, and 9 out of 10 would give you a sizeable list of faults. Each trilogy has it's own misgivings, but the OT's faults are overlooked merely because it came first and is considered invincible to criticism by many simply because of how revolutionary it was.
     
  20. sdj

    sdj Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2002
    First of all Yoda had to fight. If he didn't what kind of person (let alone Jedi master) would he appear to be? What would you think of someone that let all his brethren die and then went to hide without lifting a blade when he is supposed to be the greatest Jedi ever? Lucas NEEDS to show Yoda try to prevent things by all means at his disposal.
     
  21. Glorian-Eversea

    Glorian-Eversea Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Sigh. I am very aware that there are people HERE that like the OT and PT. That is obvious. My point was that I don't PERSONALLY KNOW (as I said) any OT fans that like the PT.
    Do I personally know YOU. No. I don't personally know any of you. You, like me, are what could be considered an extreme cadre of fans. Frankly, we are not average Star Wars fans.

    My comment came in direct response to the generalization that a large majority of fans like the PT. I was simply pointing out that there is NO evidence of that and our personal experiences cannot be used as proof in debate.

    My personal experiences alone are the opposite of what you express. If we were to go to the basher sanctuary we find experiences that are simmilar to mine. Its just bad form to say things like a "significant majority of fans..." unless you acknowledge what that is based on.

    "Each trilogy has it's own misgivings, but the OT's faults are overlooked merely because it came first and is considered invincible to criticism by many simply because of how revolutionary it was."

    I disagree. I believe the PTs problems are obviously of a more sever nature and can easily be quantified in the form of Jar-Jar, CGI, poor dramatic build, poor acting in pivotal scenes, and a more prominent and poor humor.

    Not all "misgivings" are equal. The Godfather had problems too, but to put all problems in the same cartwheel doesn't necessarily work. Surely you acknowledge that?


    Glorian


     
  22. Glorian-Eversea

    Glorian-Eversea Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Royal Guard,
    The title of this thread is Yoda living on Coruscant is wrong. I agree with the spirit of this.
    It is such a significant departure from what we know of him that George needs to explore why Yoda chooses to live on Coruscant in the midst of politics.
    Its a point of interest. The reason I say that I agree in spirit is that I wouldn't argue Yoda can't be allowed to live their (from a writer's perspective).
    I would say that such a plot point demands exploration and explanation.

    At heart, most movies are tales of how seemingly unlikely things came to pass. If you give us an unlikely thing, we naturally expect to understand how it came to pass.

    This is what makes most movies interesting.

    Instead, we got Jar-Jar Binks.

    Glorian
     
  23. royalguard96

    royalguard96 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 13, 2001
    Glorian:

    I was totally following and understanding your point until this:

    Instead, we got Jar-Jar Binks.

    Jar Jar has absolutely nothing to do with this topic. What point were you exactly trying to make? Becuase I sure can't see how it has anything to do with the topic at hand, other than to throw something else out there that you didn't like about the PT.

    This discussion is just going around in circles anyway. Some people are explaining how Yoda's environment stays true to his character throughout the saga, while others think Lucas doesn't know what he's doing with his own characters. Just like it was a page or two back. Hmmmmm......
     
  24. Jedi_Learner

    Jedi_Learner Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 10, 2002
    "Instead, we got Jar-Jar Binks."

    So? He is one of my favourite characters and I am sixteen years old and I couldn't get enough of him. If you want to insult me then you go right ahead and the moderators will come with swift justice apon you.
     
  25. sdj

    sdj Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2002
    I guess some people just picture Yoda living in a swamp because he looks like a frog.

    This actually speaks volumes about the typical person that loves the OT but hates the prequels.

     
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