Yoda living on Coruscant is wrong.

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Binary_Sunset, May 31, 2002.

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  1. -_-_-_-_-_- Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 6
    My comment came in direct response to the generalization that a large majority of fans like the PT. I was simply pointing out that there is NO evidence of that


    If in all fairness, if this statement is true then there can be no overwhelming evidence that a majority dislike TPM, or AOTC for that matter. If anything, going by the numbers, then both films have been very successful with audiences.


    And before this gets out of hand, can we please get everyone completely back on topic? This pointless squabling has already cost one good thread to be closed since last night and I really don't want to see this one suffer the same fate.
  2. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Jedi_Learner and sdj,

    Your last posts are flame baiting. Please stop.

    Stick to the topic at hand.

    Lady Sami
  3. Glorian-Eversea Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 26, 2002
    star 2
    Royal Guard,
    I was merely suggesting that there was screen time to explore Yoda if George wanted to use it. Someone seemed to suggest there wasn't room. That's all, really. And I appreciated your post in the sanctuary and will respond soon.


    "So? He is one of my favourite characters and I am sixteen years old and I couldn't get enough of him. If you want to insult me then you go right ahead and the moderators will come with swift justice apon you."

    I honestly have no idea of how to respond to this. I truly am at a loss. Insult? Swift justice? Huh?

    Glorian


  4. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    And before this gets out of hand, can we please get everyone completely back on topic? This pointless squabling has already cost one good thread to be closed since last night and I really don't want to see this one suffer the same fate.

    Then to get us back on topic I will say this I like that Yode is on Coruscant. It make sense to me when it then goes to ESB and he seems much different. It's as if he has learnd form the mistkes form the past.

    And I would just like to back up what Lady Sami said and say let's not flame people.
  5. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    I think another good reason for Yoda to be on Dagobah during the OT is that he may need some time on a 'lifeform rich' planet to recharge his 'force batteries,' so to speak, after the momentous events of the Clone wars, the destruction of the Jedi order and the downfall of the Republic.

    Lady Sami
  6. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    I think he jus tchose it because it was remote and uninhabited. Not desired by the Empire.


    I happen to think the twins will be born there, and that it is there that Obi-Wan and Yoda decide to one day train the new "Chosen One".
  7. Quixotic-Sith Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2001
    star 6
    Just a reminder to everyone to play nice and be civil. I appreciate Lady_Sami and anidanami's efforts to reinforce the TOS here. I'd like for this conversation to continue, and I'd hate to lock another good thread.

    I personally am ambivalent about Yoda on Coruscant, but I also don't think that he should have been in the PT - just my opinion, not canon; I like the idea of the mysterious mystic, alluded to but rarely seen. Kind of like Jabba before the SEs and TPM...
  8. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    So many ignorant responses to such a good thread.

    "Why would have prefered him that way? He's a jedi master. Why would he spend his time on Dagobah as a hermit? It doesn't make any sense."

    Yeah, who wants to see him portrayed like that? That would be dumb, thats why ESB and ROTJ sucked so bad, plus Yoda didn't fight.

    {rolls eyes}

    Keep up the good work Binary_Sunset. I think you make an entirely valid point.
  9. JKBurtola Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 4
    I personally don't see why Yoda being on Coruscant is a problem.

    When you see his character in the right chronological context from TPM to ROTJ it makes more sense.
    The fact is we are seeing Yoda in ESB after the Clone Wars, after the Jedi Order was destroyed and the Empire became the Republic.
    His views and beliefs in ESB are directly a result of what happened in the PT.
    The conclusion is he learnt from the mistakes made in those years.
    Being on Coruscant changes his character, yes of course, but it adds something to the character we see in ESB.

    The whole living on Coruscant to Dagobah is a good doctrine of a change of philosophy for Yoda.
    It also is a change of his philosophy of the Force, from tuning into the Unifying Force to being in tune with the Living Force.
  10. royalguard96 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2001
    star 5
    So many ignorant responses to such a good thread.

    Sorry, we'll all try to agree with you from now on. [face_plain]

    I think myself and others have made some excellent points as to why Yoda living on Coruscant makes 100 percent sense in relation to the story and his character. I think there have been good replies on both sides of the argument. Wide sweeping generalizations are no way to help a thread be productive.
  11. petmytauntaun Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2002
    star 3
    Ok, first off I apologize for it seeming that I was making generalizations in my previous post...Don't bother copying and pasting from it again, I know how it looked.

    But what I was ultimately trying to say was that I am only speaking for myself and give an example of one of the "old-guys" who still enjoys the PT...I really wasn't trying to lump anyone together with anyone else...It's monthly close-out where I work and the stress is high, so maybe some of it seeped in subconsciously to my post and cause me to lose all coherent thought process. If I would have posted more fully what I meant to say, my point would have come across better, but anyway that's off topic so.....

    Thinking about the title of this thread...Really stopping and thinking about it I see one possible solution as being to have Yoda live on some remote world (not necessarily Dagobah) and being the one to conduct the Jedi trails from there as each Padawan's final test before becoming a full fledged Jedi knight. He still could have served a capacity in the PT story and kept his "monk-like" appearance from the OT. Plus, I feel it could have done wonders for showing Anakins increasing volatility by having a dark side-cave sequence with him.
  12. Rebel Scumb Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 1999
    star 6
    I didn't mean you, I menat more on the first 2 pages, people dismissing the idea without really addressing it.

    I think B-S brings up a good point, the OT gave us no indication that Yoda did not always live on Dagobah, and he makes a valid arguement for why that is the perfect environment for him to be living in.
  13. -_-_-_-_-_- Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 6
    Having Yoda make a transition from Courscant, his philosophy of the unifying Force, and the Jedi's reliance on technology for knowledge to Dagobah, his adoption of the Living Force philosophy, and being isolated in such a non-technological enviroment show great depth in the character.
  14. royalguard96 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2001
    star 5
    I think a mistake people make is that Dagobah is the environment Yoda evolves from. Dagobah is what he evolves to, coming from who and where he is in the PT. It's meant to be this way, even though we all saw ESB first.

    And welcome back RS. Are we to take this you are back with the forums? Trust me, I know a few days away can give you remarkable perspective and be refreshing. Hope you'll be back on a regular basis.
  15. -_-_-_-_-_- Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 6
    I think a mistake people make is that Dagobah is the environment Yoda evolves from. Dagobah is what he evolves to, coming from who and where he is in the PT. It's meant to be this way, even though we all saw ESB first.


    Wonderful point royal.
  16. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    Rebel Scumb, it's great to see you here! :) I thought you'd gone for good.

    Two additions to my initial post:

    1. I have come to agree with the position that Yoda should be referred to but not seen in the PT. Perhaps show Kenobi in episode I flying away from Dagobah, with the planet's orb in the background. That way we're tantalized with a far-off glimpse of Dagobah, leaving us curious all the way until ESB. Then, when the SW virgin is watching the saga in order I-VI, he says, "Wow! We finally get to see the great Yoda!"

    2. If Yoda was always a holy hermit on Dagobah, why wouldn't the Emperor take him out? Because the quasi-pacifist Yoda wouldn't be seen as a threat. He'd be beneath contempt. Why waste precious time and resources mucking around through an awful swamp looking for someone you'd probably never be able to find? I can imagine the Emperor thinking, "Just leave the little toad there. His deranged peacenik ravings concern me as much as the barking of a dog I can't hear."
  17. darthgetalife Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 2002
    star 3
    Didn't Rebel Scumb say that he was leaving these foruns for good ? :eek:
  18. -_-_-_-_-_- Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 6
    2. If Yoda was always a holy hermit on Dagobah, why wouldn't the Emperor take him out? Because the quasi-pacifist Yoda wouldn't be seen as a threat. He'd be beneath contempt. Why waste precious time and resources mucking around through an awful swamp looking for someone you'd probably never be able to find? I can imagine the Emperor thinking, "Just leave the little toad there. His deranged peacenik ravings concern me as much as the barking of a dog I can't hear."

    I have to disagree with you here because it would leave a major plot hole. If the Emperor went through the trouble eliminating all the Jedi, why would he stop when there is only one left and even more important, by legend the most powerful one?

    The audience has a need to see why Yoda is so powerful, and to see his character developed. Seeing the experiences of this Jedi Master and the events that led him to this point in TESB, make his words in the OT all the more powerful.
  19. royalguard96 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2001
    star 5
    Thanks Dash, and I agree with you. It would be completely against Yoda's character to be isolated from all the Jedi during the "Golden Age of the Jedi" as Lucas himself has referred to it. It makes no logical sense at all that one like Yoda, whose concern is for all beings, that he wouldn't be there hands-on training the Jedi in the manner he is. Jedi seek the guidance of Yoda, beyond the Youngling stage. Evidence of this is in AOTC when Obi-Wan consults Yoda about Kamino turning up missing. He simply can't do this from Dagobah.

    This whole issue I think comes down to taking established facts, someone deciding they don't like them, and twisting character's established traits in order to fit with their arguments, since the facts don't.
  20. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    the OT gave us no indication that Yoda did not always live on Dagobah...

    Personally, I always thought Yoda settled on Dagobah at some point in his past, not that he always existed there. This is even before I knew anything of the prequels. It makes little sense that if the Jedi were the protectors of the Republic that one of their most powerful members would live in seclusion on a slimey mudhole of a planet.

    I mean, it's like assuming that Obi-Wan was always a hermit living out in the middle of the desert. Of course, he says he fought in the Clone Wars with Luke's father which indicates that the Jedi took an active part in the events that shaped the galaxy, so why one would assume Yoda was an exception to this is unclear.

    And to be the defenders of the old Republic would demand that a substantial number of their order would live in the most populated areas of the Republic (after all, the New York City police department works in the heart of NYC; would you really expect them to be able to keep order in NYC if they worked in, say, New Hampshire?), and since it is established in the original films that Yoda was a primary instructor of Jedi, wouldn't it make sense that he lived with the majority of the Jedi? It seems terribly ineffecient to expect Yoda to live on the outer rim and maintain any kind of control over the order.

    My point is, it is almost demanded by the context of the original films that Yoda not live on some backwater swamp planet his whole life but that he play an active in the events that shaped the galaxy.

    And I'm not sure where everybody is getting this idea that the Jedi are monks. Ben and Yoda lived in seclusion only because they were afraid of the Emperor and were in hiding (remember Yoda's solemn warning to Luke to not underestimate the powers of the Emperor), and again, this is established in the original films. It was never set in stone that their isolated existence was the norm for Jedi, and again, the OT clues indicate something quite the opposite.

    At any rate, it remains to be seen in Episode III what the exact circumstances are that compel Yoda to seek refuge on the most inhospitable planet in the STAR WARS universe, but to assume he always lived there is clearly an assumption on the part of the viewer and is in no way established in the films themselves.
  21. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    1. I have come to agree with the position that Yoda should be referred to but not seen in the PT.

    No offense, but I think this would have been stupid and would have really screwed things up. Imagine four films where the characters speak in reverence of Yoda, the greatest Jedi master who ever lived. Then come Episode 5 and all we see is some philosophy spouting green frog who's only moderately impressive act is to life an X-Wing fighter out of the water. Certainly not a good pay off after four films of build up. Basically, the expectations that would be built up after four films would not be sufficiently satisfied with the way Yoda is presented in ESB. It would be one thing if Yoda showed more of his prowess as a Jedi, perhaps challenging an arrogant Luke to a duel where Luke gets totally schooled in the ways of the lightsaber--then perhaps it would work, but Yoda is shown in his declining years and except for his wisdom isn't that impressive as an all powerful Jedi master.

    Not to mention the fact that it would have created all kinds of inconsistencies and plot holes, such as, if Yoda is so all powerful then why didn't he try to stop the Emperor? Wouldn't it paint him as a coward and a sell out if he simply sat there while all the Jedi were getting slaughtered? Then after all that, he waits for 30 years then decides to send Luke, one of the least accomplished Jedi in the saga, to his almost certain doom. "Ask me to fight the Emperor, do you? Crazy I am not! Face the Emperor you will, my expendable apprentice!"

    More to the point, leaving Yoda in seclusion on Dagobah during the events of the prequels creates far too many problems and narratively inconsistent with the events of the original films.

    2. If Yoda was always a holy hermit on Dagobah, why wouldn't the Emperor take him out? Because the quasi-pacifist Yoda wouldn't be seen as a threat.

    Even in the original films, Palpatine is established as a man who is cold and calculating, who never takes unecessary risk. Leaving the supposedly most powerful Jedi alive and well on a planet where he can easily train other Jedi and provide a constant threat to him is completely out of character for Palpatine. Again, it creates far too many problems. For instance, how could Yoda possibly be considered a Jedi of legendary proportions if Palpatine doesn't even consider him a threat worth dealing with? And how powerful could he be if he let Palpatine have his way with the galaxy for 30 years, and how wise could he be if he sends Luke, a minimally trained Jedi who could have gotten schooled by any of the younglings in Episode II, to face an enemy so ruthless and dangerous that even the most powerful Jedi master refused to challenge him?

    In the long run, having Yoda be a reclusive character throughout the prequels would have considerably weakened him as a character, making him appear to be a hypocritical coward instead of a wise and powerful mentor.

    Bottom line: Lucas made the right decision (and in some ways, the only decision) to have Yoda play a central role in the prequels..
  22. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
  23. Borges Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2003
    star 1
    I've only read a bit of this interesting thread, but I'd like to add my thoughts anyway. When info first started coming out about TPM, the whole idea of a Jedi Council on Coruscant seemed very strange to me. I had never thought of the Jedi as civil servants based right in the heart of the Republic. I had also assumed they would be a much more mysterious order, and that Jedi masters would have to be sought out by prospective apprentices much like Luke sought Yoda out. Yoda would not necessarily live on Dagobah, but would definitely not live on Coruscant.

    I think the idea of a decentralized, mysterious Jedi Order might more easily set up the downfull of the Jedi, since people might start to question why the protection of the Republic is in the hands of a group that people know so little about. This would also make more sense in respect to the way Jedi have been literally forgotten by the time of the OT. With the Jedi being so connected to the politics of the Republic and largely in the public eye, I find it hard to believe it will merely be some old religion by the time of the OT.

    But of course, I have no idea how Episode III will play out and I look forward to seeing how the Jedi fall.
  24. royalguard96 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2001
    star 5
    Where did you dig up this old fossil?

    The arguments made for Yoda living on Coruscant seem much stronger than those against. Those who are for it understand that's where the story puts Yoda. Those against it just seem like they want to hang on to where the characters are in the OT, regardless of where the *story* should be in the PT era.

    Those who don't like the PT will agree with the opinion in this thread. Those who do will disagree. Simple as that.
  25. gator Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2003
    star 2
    Hawk, did you spend last night bumping up every active basher thread?
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