Yoda living on Coruscant is wrong.

SLAVE2 wrote: "I find it funny this thread comes from someone who doesnt even like Yoda. I remember Binary Sunset once said the whole Yoda/Dagobah thing should be cut from ESB, IIRC."

You are remembering wrong, though I can understand where you misunderstood me. I don't agree with the direction the SW saga has taken starting with ESB. I wish that, instead, there would have been just one more movie (titled, STAR WARS II) in which the Empire is destroyed and Luke kills Vader in a sabre duel.

ESB has injected different ideas into the mix: Taoist-style thought, Yoda, Vader as Luke's father, etc. The story becomes, primarily, about the salvation of Anakin. Obviously, the PT was going to deal with these elements in some form. So, I expected the prequels to follow ESB's lead. (I considered ROTJ to be inferior due to burn-out on GL's part.) I never dreamed that Lucas would do what he's doing to the PT. But maybe the SEs should have alerted me.

EDIT: Just to be clear: I recognize that ESB is a work of art and a film classic. I would have taken the saga in a different direction if I had my way; but this in no way blinds me to the enormous possibilities of a saga based upon ESB's presuppositions and quality.

 

This is what I meant before when I was talking about your preconceived notions. You see Yoda as some sort of religious figure but he's not. He's just another Jedi. And the Jedi were defenders of the Republic, not secluded religious icons.

I find the stark contrast in his two situations interesting. You PT bashers just want the OT. Yoda was a recluse in the OT, so you can't accept him in any other type of setting. You see the Jedi as some kind of religious sect, ignoring the fact that they are the defenders of the Republic and therefore would have to be right there in the middle of the Republic. This is why Lucas doesn't listen to fans.

 

Twink Kee, good to hear from you!

To answer your very good question, refer to my post above that outlines the choice of two ways. Further, consider St. Seraphim of Sarov (1759-1833). He was a Russian hermit-monk that living alone deep in the Russian forests and didn't see a single person for 25 years. After that, he allowed persons in spiritual need to visit him (though he otherwise maintained his hermitic lifestyle). He said, "Acquire inward peace, and thousands around you will find their salvation." That's kind of how I envision Yoda (though the Taoist hermits are a closer fit).

 

"ignoring the fact that they are the defenders of the Republic and therefore would have to be right there in the middle of the Republic."

Oh, so it's easy to defend thousands of star systems if you're based on Coruscant rather than spread throughout the galaxy?

Right. Countries always defend their borders and territory by huddling in one place and holding meetings.

BTW, I love Star Wars but it doesn't hold a candle to Seven Samurai.

 

Padme Bra wrote: "This is what I meant before when I was talking about your preconceived notions."

But there's nothing wrong with preconceived notions. After all, these are prequels. As such, they are supposed to do certain things and not do certain other things. They are supposed to fill-in what we already know. They aren't supposed to contradict what we already know. I know that there are "fixes" for these contradictions; but IMO these fixes are just as contrived as those floating around in the EU. Anything can be proven to not be a contradiction if you force it hard enough.

"You see Yoda as some sort of religious figure but he's not. He's just another Jedi."

That's what I mean when I say that Yoda has been cheapened. He used to be something unique. Now he's just another one of the guys. There's 10,000 just like him.

"And the Jedi were defenders of the Republic, not secluded religious icons."

But why does that have to be true for every single one? Again, if Yoda is forced into a cookie-cutter mold, then why have him in the PT at all? There are 10,000 other Jedi who would do just as well. Besides, by training other Jedi, Yoda is helping to defend the Republic. He just realized that making grand armies and fighting huge wars isn't the answer. But the way he's been portrayed in the PT, Yoda is part of the problem. According to the OT, it was Obi-Wan's fault that Anakin fell. But in the PT, it's everyone's fault but Obi-Wan's. In the PT, far from being the cause of problems, Obi-Wan is the only Jedi who has maintained his moral integrity. Yoda, on the other hand, just jumped on the bandwagon with everyone else full of piss and wind, helped get up a big, bad army, and started kicking butt and taking names. The entire Jedi Council (including Yoda) are just a bunch of Palpatine's patsies.

 

The Prequal Trilogy doesn't contridict what we already know. It only contridicts what people want it be like.



ST

 

Quote:
"Countries always defend their borders and territory by huddling in one place and holding meetings"

Well no, but they are centrally located in one place. And we're not talking about a military here, we're talking about the Jedi. They're negotiators and enforcers of the peace. They're going to be centralized and ready to be dispatched at the request of the senate. Theyr'e not going to be set up in garrisons all around the galaxy and they're certainly not going to go sit in a swamp somewhere in the outer rim.

Quote:
"But there's nothing wrong with preconceived notions."

No, not as long as you don't turn those preconceived notions into facts in your mind, facts that when contradicted, become continuity errors. That's exactly what you're doing here.

Quote:
"After all, these are prequels. As such, they are supposed to do certain things and not do certain other things. They are supposed to fill-in what we already know. They aren't supposed to contradict what we already know."

So what you're saying is that nothing is supposed to be any different between the OT and the PT or it's a contradiction. Well that's just not the case. We know that the galaxy was a completly different place during the PT. Things are going to be different.

Quote:
"I know that there are "fixes" for these contradictions; but IMO these fixes are just as contrived as those floating around in the EU. Anything can be proven to not be a contradiction if you force it hard enough."

Don't compare the differences in the two trilogies to the mess that is the EU. There aren't any contradictions in the films. Yoda living in one place in the PT and another in the OT is not a contradiction and if you think it is, you're just way too inflexible to accept any additional chapters of the SW saga beyond the OT.

Quote:
"That's what I mean when I say that Yoda has been cheapened. He used to be something unique. Now he's just another one of the guys. There's 10,000 just like him."

Well duh! This is the time of the Republic. The Jedi were in their prime. No, Yoda is no longer the only Jedi in the galaxy.

Quote:
"But why does that have to be true for every single one? "

I think the question is, why would you have one just sitting in a swamp somewhere for no reason?

Quote:
"He just realized that making grand armies and fighting huge wars isn't the answer"

When did he realize that? He trained Luke to go fight Vader and the Emperor. Without armies and fighting, Obi Wan, Anakin and Mace would be dead. The Rebels would have been crushed. He didn't learn that lesson. I think you're taking "wars don't make one great" to an out of context extreme.

Quote:
"According to the OT, it was Obi-Wan's fault that Anakin fell. But in the PT, it's everyone's fault but Obi-Wan's."

No, according to Obi Wan it was his fault. That doesn't mean that it was. Anyway, it was Anakin's fault, it always was.

Quote:
"Yoda, on the other hand, just jumped on the bandwagon with everyone else full of piss and wind, helped get up a big, bad army, and started kicking butt and taking names."

What other choice was there? And what was Obi Wan destroying all the battle droids and killing those monsters with, love?

Sorry, but you have a somewhat twisted view of the saga.

 

They should have let Binary make TPM. I like his version better.

 

The master living in an isolated place was originally someone from the city or from a higher place who was forced somehow to go into hiding. In Chinese stories I've read, we usually have a young hero stumble upon a recluse master. Rarely do we get into the back story, but when we do, the old master in his early days was frequently a mirror of the younger hero or someone with great influence, like Yoda was in the PT.

Besides, the Jedi's downfall was due to a flaw in the Order. If Yoda had already been on Dagobah as a beyond-reproach Jedi Master, we would not be able to appreciate the tragic fall of the Jedi Order. Therefore, it was extremely important that Yoda lived on Coruscant and was part of the bureaucracy of the Jedi Council. Changing this would significantly weaken the fantastic PT and would take away another layer to Yoda's character.

 

I wrote: ""Yoda [in AOTC], on the other hand, just jumped on the bandwagon with everyone else full of piss and wind, helped get up a big, bad army, and started kicking butt and taking names."

Padme Bra responded: "What other choice was there?"

The Jedi Council should have let Obi-Wan die on Geonosis. That way, one one Jedi (in their minds, since they didn't know that Anakin and Padme were there) would die. Instead, Bail (especially) flies off the handle and foams at the mouth wanting to give Palpatine dictatorial powers and invade Geonosis. The JC, in the persons of Mace and Yoda, goes right along with this warmongering. Then they lead the attack that results in the death of dozens of Jedi (instead of just one) and that starts the Clone Wars, with Palpatine at the helm. The point being that this is precisely the opposite of what they should have done! They did precisely what Palpatine wanted them to do! They made the worst decision they could have possibly made.

What, then, should the JC have done? They should have used all their influence to:

A) encourage patience, restraint, and dialogue with Dooku; and

B) discourage the Senate from giving Palpatine dictatorial powers.

In addition, Yoda should have gone to Kamino and done the following:

1) stop the production of further clones;

2) end the military training of the clones;

3) break-up the clones into small groups;

4) disperse them throughout the galaxy; and

5) give them occupational training so they can contribute to the well-being of the galaxy rather than to its destruction.

Now that is what a wise, 800-year-old Jedi Master would have done. If a 31-year-old American can see through the warmongering going on, why couldn't the entire Jedi Council?

 

"To answer your very good question, refer to my post above that outlines the choice of two ways. Further, consider St. Seraphim of Sarov (1759-1833). He was a Russian hermit-monk that living alone deep in the Russian forests and didn't see a single person for 25 years. After that, he allowed persons in spiritual need to visit him (though he otherwise maintained his hermitic lifestyle). He said, "Acquire inward peace, and thousands around you will find their salvation." That's kind of how I envision Yoda (though the Taoist hermits are a closer fit)."

For one thing, I don't think the Force would be defined under one religious standard, whether it be Taoism or Christianity.

Therefore, I have to take what I think would be the best choice, at least in the concept of this fiction. So, I don't agree with the "let them come to you" philosophy, whether it be Taoism, Christianity or a fictional religion known as the Force. Not when there is potential to do more and be more. Basically, I think that's very close to being a selfish and self-glorifying philosphy.

Furthermore, I don't think it works to the fullest extent. That's not to say that you should force (no pun intended ) your beliefs on anyone. By the same token, I think there is a responsibility to not sit by and wait for those in need to come to you as only they recognize their need. If you do that, some people in need will never come to you.

IMO, Yoda's duties go beyond educating those who already believe or are seeking enlightment. He has the responsibility to help those who don't even believe. If they accept that help, then great. If they don't accept it, then they have to deal with the consequences. But they can't claim ingnorance (or that someone wouldn't help them), when they had the opportunity afforded to them.

As a Jedi, Yoda's responsibilites lie beyond just the strictly "spiritual" nature. Ultimately, it all traces back to his spiritual awareness. But her must perform duties that, to an outsider, would not be considered a "religous act".

I guess to sum it up, I would quote "To whom much is given, much is required".

 

Twink Kee, thanks for your thoughtful post. Consider this:

When Yoda got active and "did something", he helped to plunge the galaxy into the Clone Wars and to turn the Republic into the Empire. Again, Lao-Tzu often said that the best way to accomplish something is to not try to do it; the best way to get somewhere is to not go there at all. Counterintuitive, but (at least in this case) I think there's something to it.

This reminds me of a book title I saw: "Don't Just Do Something, Sit There!"

 

"The Prequal Trilogy doesn't contridict what we already know. It only contridicts what people want it be like."



Search your feelings you know this to be UNtrue.

 

Why is this even being discussed?

Of course it's right.

 

The Jedi Council should have let Obi-Wan die on Geonosis. That way, one one Jedi (in their minds, since they didn't know that Anakin and Padme were there) would die. Instead, Bail (especially) flies off the handle and foams at the mouth wanting to give Palpatine dictatorial powers and invade Geonosis. The JC, in the persons of Mace and Yoda, goes right along with this warmongering. Then they lead the attack that results in the death of dozens of Jedi (instead of just one) and that starts the Clone Wars, with Palpatine at the helm. The point being that this is precisely the opposite of what they should have done! They did precisely what Palpatine wanted them to do! They made the worst decision they could have possibly made.

Ummm........ DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's a major arc of the saga! They made mistakes and errors in judgement that led to their downfall. I thought the seeds of this idea were introduced in ANH... There has to be downfall in order to have redemption.

Sure the JC SHOULD have done those things, but the point is they DIDN'T. They made mistakes. This is what was SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN!! Sheesh. Yoda and Mace are not perfect. The Jedi have become complacent. They have become arrogant. This is made very clear in AOTC. I think this all makes Yoda a much more interesting and tragic character. He loses everything he has worked so hard to build partly due to his own tragic errors in judgement.


And as for the Jedi being on Coruscant... the novel for AOTC says specifically that there are 200 Jedi in the temple and thousands throughout the galaxy. Seems to me to be out in the world trying to make a difference.

 

"Why is this even being discussed?

Of course it's right."


If we're not supposed to discuss things, then why are any of us here?

 

When Yoda got active and "did something", he helped to plunge the galaxy into the Clone Wars and to turn the Republic into the Empire. Again, Lao-Tzu often said that the best way to accomplish something is to not try to do it; the best way to get somewhere is to not go there at all. Counterintuitive, but (at least in this case) I think there's something to it.

Then allow me to say that I don't agree with that philosophy. The Clone Wars would've started whether Yoda had gotten involved or not. In fact, judging by the conversations between Yoda and Mace, Yoda was distinctly trying to stop the war before it even got truly started. If he had failed to show up, Anakin and Obi-Wan would've been killed, and the galaxy would've been plunged into a further despair because there would have been no Anakin Skywalker to be redeemed by Luke Skywalker and end Palpatine's reign.

 

We are supposed to be discussing things that have two sides to them.

The idea that having Yoda live on Coruscant instead of Dagobah is "wrong" is completley without basis. Perhaps some of you would have liked it better the other way around, but obviously, this is a CONSCIOUS use of contrast that Lucas is using in the prequels. It works as sort of a symbolic reverse image, and is actually very "right" for the story Lucas is trying to tell.

 

You know what? I sorta agree with Binary. It makes sense for Yoda to live on Dagobah - in fact, when I first saw the CT, I thought that that was how Jedi were trained - each master lived on a certain planet, and had some apprentices... not all of them gathered in one place.

And the cheapening of Yoda. I agree about this as well, to a point. He should be the head of the council... I pictured him as the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy (which is actually supported by TPM's dialogue, but not necessarily its story).

In AOTC, I feel, some of Yoda's former character was returned to him... he has a sense of humor...

Also, in a previous draft of AOTC, Yoda mentions that he is 'probing the dark side' for clues into the darkness sweeping the galaxy. It i also mentioned that he goes off by himself when he does this. This could be taken two ways: 1, that he simply goes to his quarters, or 2, that he goes off by himself, to a system where no one's around. Is Dagobah Yoda's 'summer house'?

 

Okay everyone in this thread line up for your continuous smack both ways.

 

Did any of you guys watch the film? They didn't go to Geonosis to save Obi Wan. They went because there was a droid army being created there. They went there to stop a war before it started.

So they should have let Obi Wan die. Brilliant plan. Then what? Wait for the droid army to knock on their door on Coruscant? Then what? Spout off some platitudes about how war doesn't make them great? The Jedi are defenders of the Republic, remember?

And I still haven't heard a decent reason why Yoda should sit in a swamp while the rest of the Jedi live on Coruscant, except maybe that that's the way it was in your childhood and you don't like change.

 

Yoda went to Dagobah to hid not to live. I highly doubt Dagobah would be yoda's first choose as a place to live. If yoda never had a reason to go into hiding then i think he would still live on Coruscant.

I don't believe you at ALL

 

"The Jedi are defenders of the Republic, remember?"

What PadmeBra said.

The Jedi just aren't philosphers and "priests of the Force" (if you will). At one time, they were all self-centered in their study of the Force. But they realized that they could use their affinity for the Force for more good than what they were doing. So they adopted the creed of becoming "defenders of peace and justice". That's what Yoda was doing.

He was trying to defend peace and justice, and the best place to do that was at the center of the galaxy, Coruscant. But when Coruscant became the complete center of injustice under the rule of the Empire, there was no longer a need to stay there. In fact, staying there was determental to the cause. It was self-destructive.

In ESB, Yoda tries to keep Luke from getting involved on Bespin not to prevent a war, but to escalate the war even further by falling into the trap of the dark side.

IMO, the difference between a "warmonger" and a "peacemaker" is not the one will fight and one won't respectively.

It is that "one will fight first", and "one won't fight first" respectively.

 

"Now that is what a wise, 800-year-old Jedi Master would have done. If a 31-year-old American can see through the warmongering going on, why couldn't the entire Jedi Council?"

God, man, you have to realize that these are CORNY, FLASH GORDON SCI-FI ADVENTURE MOVIES.
Yeah, sure, it might make sense (in your mind) to have the Jedi be ultra-pacifists, but what kind of film would that have been?? The only way for some of your ideas to work would be to completely re-imagine the Prequels, using nothing except preconcieved notions from the OT.

I think you're getting a little too caught up in this, Binary. You're refusing to let go of the preconcieved notions you've built up for years. The SW story you wanted disappeared when "The Empire Strikes Back" opened in 1980. Let go and just enjoy the ride.

 

Binary's 100% correct.

The Jedi never should have gone to Geonosis. They should have stayed on Coruscant (except for Yoda, who should have stayed on Dagobah) sitting on their butts.

That way, Palpatine wouldn't have successfully manipulated everyone, and the Jedi never would have been wiped out.

Then Lucas could remake the Old Trilogy with loads of extra Jedi running around and flipping out all the time and blowing space-pirates heads off (they would die from this.)