Yoda living on Coruscant is wrong.

Insted of Yoda being this perfect force user like you seem to think he should be, why not make him flawed like all the other Jedi, then after the events of Episode 3, he and Obiwan realise the way the Jedi were was wrong, so they learn from their mistakes. Stop relying on technology and midichloriens and rely on the force only, so Yoda goes to Dagobah to emerse himself in nature, and waits for the day Luke will be ready. And Obiwan, insted of relying on the archive droids, makes Luke use only the force at the Battle of Yavin insted of relying on the targeting computer. Making their errors come full circle.

 

Binary, the simple solution IMHO would have been to have the Jedi train on a verdant, living planet somewhere. It would have made more sense in terms of teaching students to feel the Force and to be aware of its source (living things) than to have the students all taught on a cold city planet.

IMHO, Binary raises a good point. It wasn't necessary to have Yoda be a politician (which in a very real sense is what the Jedi Council is... a political body attached to the Senate). It would have made just as much sense to portray him as a dedicated teacher, off on a planet where the Jedi can train in peace. Sure, he'd get involved with the Council when needed, but IMHO setting Yoda apart from the Council in this way would have more effectively highlighted the unnatural state of the Jedi Council. And it certainly would have been reflective of Yoda's nature as we saw it in the OT.

I don't necessarily think he should have been a hermit on Dagobah... it makes sense that this was something that happened after the rise of the Empire. But certainly putting him on a planet full of wildlife and wilderness where he trained young Jedi would have made him feel more like Yoda. I can live with the city-bound Jedi bureaucrat that Lucas decided to turn Yoda into, but IMHO it wasn't the only way to go.

 

I don't have anything against bashers. It's just that the reasonings behind some of these complaints just aren't valid to me. Complaining that the prequels aren't simple enough or that the lines between good and evil aren't as clear cut as they were in the first film just seems closed minded. Complicated plots and ambiguous characters are good things.

As does complaining that the characters aren't in the exact same situations as they were in the OT. It was never to be assumed that Yoda's normal life was that of a hermit living in some swamp, waiting for you Jedi to come and be trained, anymore than it
was to be assumed that Obi Wan always lived in the desert. Why would a planet full of snakes and trees be more alive with the Force than a planet with billions of senitent life forms? Because of some preconcieved notion you have about Yoda being some kid of Earth-like monk? Bah.

This close minded stubborness against anything not exactly like the OT makes me wonder why some of you even bother with the PT. It certainly makes me wonder why you bother taking the time to talk about it.

 

"Complaining that the prequels aren't simple enough or that the lines between good and evil aren't as clear cut as they were in the first film just seems closed minded. Complicated plots and ambiguous characters are good things."

I prefer Star Wars to be a clear-cut conflict between good and evil. Why would you think that's closed minded? It's just the type of space-fantasy I prefer. Moral ambiguity is part of real life. For the most part, I prefer my fantasy worlds to not have to deal with moral ambiguities. I prefer good vs evil, light against darkness. To me, the entire SW saga (not just the first movie) should be a fairy tale . Generally speaking, in a fairy tale the witch, the wolf, the stepmother, etc are all unambiguously bad; the knight, the prince, the wise old hermit, etc are all unambiguously good.

I can understand, Padme Bra, if you don't like such things. But I ask that you grant that people such as myself can enjoy them without thereby having closed minds.

 

PB, I just wish at least the first Prequel would have shown the Republic and the Jedi in all their greatness, before the decline and fall.

 

I prefer Star Wars to be a clear-cut conflict between good and evil

Didnt Han shoot first?

 

No, Greedo did.

 

Quote:
"PB, I just wish at least the first Prequel would have shown the Republic and the Jedi in all their greatness, before the decline and fall. "

That's pretty much what TPM was. People hated it because the Jedi weren't challenged by anything and the scenes with the senate were boring.

 

No, no, no. TPM showed the Republic in the midst of its decline. The Senate is corrupt,yada,yada,yada.

By "greatness" I mean they where straightforward heroes who won against great odds.

We should like the Jedi so their fall is more dramatic.

As it is now, the Jedi just seem like suckers.

Of course I'm probably wrong.

BTW, I loved the Senate scenes regadless if I have a personal disflavor towards the direction and tone the first film took. I feel much the same way about the entirety of Clones.

You ever see Errol Flynn movies? Gunga Din? Seven Samurai? That's what I'm talking about. High-adventure, real humour, and poignancy

BTW, the consequences for the great victory accomplished by the heroes in the first film could lead to later difficulties and foreshadowing for the second PT film.

 

I'm really begining to believe that some people actually see this saga as a religious thing, it's not, it's basically Flash Gordon done prettier. Jedi's do not follow a religion in the sense of Christianity or Judaism, they do not go out to preach or convert people to follow them or their way of life. They are Paladins and emissaries of the authorities whose job it is to serve. The are guardians of truth and Justice only because they believed in the democratic authority ruling the known galaxy and as is their way; lend their services to that authority to help maintain it. Make no mistake that these guys or the heads of their order were ever hippies on a mission of peace without violence like Martin Luther King or Ghandi, they carry a most deadly tool for a living and are prepared to use it to maim or kill whenever necessary. So much so do they rely on this weapon that they devised many different styles and variations on weilding it to maximum efficiency which they have taught throughout their kind for over a thousand years! Add to that the ability to tap into a mystical energy field and use it to perform amazing feats and you have a formidible individual. not exactly your average priest or holyman is it?

Yoda is not a holyman or a priest, neither is he the head of a religeous order or a tree hugging hippy. He's an old Jedi Knight, KNIGHT not PRIEST and that means he was trained to fight for justice with more than just a kind word. Trust me, you can get a lot further with a lightsabre and a kind word than just a kind word! In addition, the fact that he elevated to the point of being a master does not mean that he no longer uses the skill he weilded as a knight nor should it mean he has suddenly become Lightsabre proof, he still has a lightsabre and he will use it if he has to. He is not opposed to violence otherwise he would not have trained thousands of knights to use a weapon that can only kill or maim an opponent let alone send Luke on a mission to kill his own father!

One more thing, The Jedi and especially Yoda are not poloticians, they NEVER get involved in polotics. They are only available to observe, advise and serve those in authority not interfere. Not in any of the PT films were the Jedi ever portrayed as opinionated poloticians, they have no seat in the senate to voice their opinions nor do they have any state of their own to which they could say they officially represent. Because they live and work in a Temple does not mean they go there to pray either, they don't! It is only a temple because it is sacred to them and them alone, it is the only place they know as home having no attachment to their true famalies, and the fact that it isn't awash with greenery and foliage doesn't mean that they are in the wrong setting to truly feel the force either. The force is generated by life but it surronds everything, EVERYTHING, that means you do not need to be in the middle of pumpkin patch to feel it.

Yoda has as much business being on Dagobah as he does working behind the counter at McDonalds! He's a teacher for goodness sake and a very wise and powerfull Jedi. He'd be of absolutely no use to anyone as a recluse in a swamp, that's for Kermit the the pig loving Frog not a Jedi Master with a job to do. The Jedi temple is his home, teaching is what he loves to do, advising the authorities and managing the Jedi order as their leader is his Job and I see no reason why he would run away from itin its hey-day or its most desperate times. Mace Windu is a Jedi Master and you don't hear anyone complaining about him using his lightsabre?

I really can't see how anyone can watch those films and see him as anything else! He's more Gandalf than Ghandi and I think a lot of you guys have really got to lose those preconceptions and just accept that you wanted him to be something he never was.

 

The more I think about it, the more I feel that Yoda should not have been in the prequels at all. As much as I enjoyed him in AOTC, I think he would have had a lot more impact on the saga as a whole if ESB had remained his first appearance.

In the prequels he could have been mentioned a few times as being the greatest of all Jedi Masters. This creates an air of mystery for someone seeing these films for the first time, in order. By the time you get to ESB and Luke finally goes looking for him the audience would be going "All right! Finally we get to see this guy!" Then the surprise of who and what Yoda really is would have been all the more powerful.

 

I think that if the audience actually believe that he dies with the rest of the Jedi at the end of Episode 3 then it will have an even better effect when they get to Ep5. The new audience that is, we old fogeys wouldn't have been fooled by either mines or your pitch, Agent Coop!

 

"That's pretty much what TPM was. People hated it because the Jedi weren't challenged by anything and the scenes with the senate were boring."

To me, the Senate scenes were the only scenes in TPM (excepting Maul) which were really good. Ian McDiarmid did a fine job, and the scenery was excellent. They were not boring. The Council scenes were

 

CeeJay is right. Even before I heard TPM was being made, I always imagined Yoda leading the Jedi Council. What would be the point of him being a crazy old hermit all his life?
And the scene in ESB still works, even though we know who Yoda is already (though I bet most older fans back in 1980 knew that the little green guy was Yoda straight away). The surprise comes from two things:
1. Whoa, look what's happened to Yoda!
2. Has he really gone senile, or is he just messing with Luke?

 

Frank Oz talks about Yoda
Wed, Jun 05, 02 09:28:01 AM EDT

Entertainment Weekly spoke with Frank Oz about Yoda in Episode II:

In order to make him look the way we remembered him, they imitated your mistakes, right?

Frank Oz: They had to -- the puppet is limited. It's a very difficult thing to do. For instance, the ears move a little too much as he talks. I tried to stop that when I performed it because I had no control over it. They actually put it in there again to make it look like Yoda.

Audiences go insane when Yoda fights -- have you had opportunity to see that happen?

FO: Yeah, they go nuts. [laughs] When we did the looping, George said that when Yoda appears and says, ''Count Dooku,'' he wanted him to say it like John Wayne. It was great how he showed Yoda coming in by showing a shadow, and the shadow gets huge applause. He wanted a John Wayne showdown on a Western street. And he took a big chance with that because there's great affection towards Yoda. It could've failed -- but it didn't.

Did you have to change your conception of the character to imagine him riding around and commanding troops?

FO: No, because in my mind Yoda can do anything. As a puppet I can't do everything. But I did enough to make it believable.

Had you already imagined this past for him as a great warrior?

FO: When I did ''The Empire Strikes Back,'' I had written four pages of history for him. I wrote down what he ate, how he grew up, where he lived, how he spoke. I had a whole history of Yoda which I've never showed anyone, so I could be comfortable with who that character was when it came to working it.

And how did he grow up, exactly?

FO: I think he grew up in a more formal time. It's not unlike today when you look at old photographs and you see people in top hats, or you see people in formal attire. To a degree, Yoda grew up in the equivalent of top hats or fedoras. I think his twisting of the language comes from the time when he lived; he grew up to speak like that. There's a presence and a stature and a dignity that's very Old World in Yoda.

No one knows the Yoda character better than Frank Oz.

 

"My own council I run on who was to be trained"

...even as a 5 year old, seeing that movie for the first time I knew that at one time Yoda was a part of a Jedi order that was at the center of the galaxy. He was never a hermit. This was something that came about because of the EMpire, just like Obi Wan's exile. The Yoda portrayed in the PT is exactly as I imagined as little kid.

 

Frank Oz has betrayed us all.

 

?Yoda has as much business being on Dagobah as he does working behind the counter at McDonalds! He's a teacher for goodness sake and a very wise and powerfull Jedi. He'd be of absolutely no use to anyone as a recluse in a swamp, that's for Kermit the pig loving Frog not a Jedi Master with a job to do.?

Perhaps you are misunderstanding what we?re saying. To clarify what his backstory could have easily been (and which is more in line with what we were given in ESB):

Yoda was once a ?great warrior,? who both taught Jedi and led the Council. At some point, say 100 years before TPM, he stepped down as the head of the Council in order to devote himself to two things: teaching the best and the brightest Jedi in a one-on-one environment away from the distractions of galactic politics, and meditating/learning about the Force. Of course, as mentioned by another poster earlier in this thread, every once in a while he could act as a special-advisor to the Council, but for the most part his life is now devoted to teaching and meditating. Yoda lives and teaches on Dagobah (Or another remote, lush planet), but no one save the Council and his former pupils know where he is (which further eliminates distractions). Being taught by Yoda should be a great honor among the Jedi?a sign that the pupil shows exceptional talent. Yoda?s last pupil, pre-TPM, is Obi Wan Kenobi.

Yoda knows that it?s best to lead by example, so when he is teaching a pupil, he devotes himself fully to teaching that pupil. The student sees Yoda?s dedication and in turn devotes himself fully to learning about the Force. In AOTC, Yoda is shown as both a teacher AND the head of the Council. What the hell kind of example is that? Essentially he is telling his students that it is okay to spend half the day learning about the Force, and spend the other half of the day doing administrative chores which could just as easily be done by someone else. What happens during times of crisis? Does Yoda spend days with the Council and neglect his students? Does he have a substitute teacher? What kind of half-assed instructor is this green muppet anyway?

Yoda is also the wisest Jedi of all time. He is to the Force what Stephen Hawkings is to physics. Does Stephen Hawkings teach third grade science? Hells no--that would be a monumental misallocation of resources. Yoda should be teaching only the most promising Jedi Knights who are pursuing ?Jedi Master? status. And yet, in AOTC, we see Yoda instructing third graders. Why would Yoda teach Force basics, and leave graduate level studies to people who are half the teacher that he is?

Yoda serves the Republic best by creating the best and most dedicated Jedi Masters, who then become leaders of the Council and teachers in their own right.

The progression in the OT makes sense: Luke learns the basics from Ben, then ?graduates? to Yoda, where he spends every waking moment learning about the Force (or reflecting on what he has learned). Why does the opposite sequence of events ?work? for so many of you.

Anyway, I kind of got off on a tangent, but at any rate, Binary?s right; given the OT, the above Yoda backstory makes much more sense than what we were given in both TPM and AOTC.

 

But early training is so important in a Jedi's life, why wouldn't the master handle that? The early years of a Jedi's life is what shapes them, dictates where they're going. Luke didn't 'graduate' to Yoda. It took a half hour for him to call a lightsabre into his hand. he didn't know what he was doing. It makes sense that the master train Jedi hopefulls in the most formative years of their lives. What doesn't make sense is that this master would sit in a swamp somewhere, completly uninvolved with the main task of the Jedi, namely protecting the Republic.

 

>>>>Yoda is also the wisest Jedi of all time. He is to the Force what Stephen Hawkings is to physics. Does Stephen Hawkings teach third grade science? Hells no--that would be a monumental misallocation of resources. Yoda should be teaching only the most promising Jedi Knights who are pursuing ?Jedi Master? status.

No, because the classes are very small. But what Stephen Hawking does (as well as his pioneering research) is writes books for people without physics degrees to be able to get an understanding of some of the most complicated theories of the 20th century, and getting his knowledge out to the largest number of people possible- something which most cosmologists wouldn't be able to come close to doing. Because he's virtually unarguably the best for the job.

Same goes for Yoda. (Except there's less Jedi than third grade science students, so he can teach them face-to-face.)


>>>>It wasn't necessary to have Yoda be a politician (which in a very real sense is what the Jedi Council is... a political body attached to the Senate).


If Yoda is a ?politician?, where does he get involved in politics? (ie. the ?winning and using of power to govern society?)

If the Jedi are a political body, why do they have no say in the issue of the Galactic Army, seperatists etc. Why do Mace Windu and Yoda watch the events in the Senate without having a seat to sit in?

 

Binary,

Out of interest, given your love of the "clear cut good and evil of the original Star Wars", would you say that Owen Lars is good or evil? Or Han Solo, come to that- given that he shoots people in cold blood, deserts his friends and is apparently soley motivated by greed for 90% of the film?

 

"But what Stephen Hawking does is writes books for people without physics degrees to be able to get an understanding of some of the most complicated theories of the 20th century, and getting his knowledge out to the largest number of people possible"

Yoda could do the same thing. Writing a book which then becomes the "textbook" for all Jedi Masters to use when teaching their students is a perfectly acceptable allocation of resources. Yoda (or Hawking) teaching third graders is not. Consider this: as soon as the apprentices are in a position to actually abuse their power, they are under the tutelage of an inferior teacher.

PadmeBra, Yoda training the best students on Dagobah doesn't mean he's "completely uninvolved" in the Republic at all. He is training the Jedi leaders of the near future, ensuring that they have complete mastery of the Force before they are in a position to instruct the younglings or advise the Senate.

Can anyone think of a real world example where a Master spends the bulk of his time teaching basic concepts? Academics? Music? Medicine? The military? Chess? Sports?

 

Can anyone think of a real-world example where a master spends the bulk of his time in seclusion, as far away from his work (as "defender of peace and justice") as possible?

When I was at University, in the first year we were taught by the top lecturers in the department, because the basics are so vital to progressing anywhere- if you ask a question about something basic at an early stage in your learning and don't get a decent answer, it can be VERY detrimental. By the time we were in the final year, we were being taught by people who had only graduated 2 or 3 years ago.

Seriously, if the fact that the Jedi who wipes out the Jedi Order is apparently the ONLY one NOT to have been trained by Yoda isn't enough to highlight his importance as a teacher, I'm not sure what is...

 

Some professors teach undergraduates, but most don't. Let's go out on a limb and say they enjoy doing this. Sure, they could be conducting research, advising Ph.D. candidates or publishing papers. Doing the really important stuff. What's degrading or wasteful about teaching the undergrads, even the ones who won't go on to become great scholars and researchers in their own right?

 

I have no clue what you are talking about, but why would the Jedi Council be in a swamp?