Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Anakin

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by JediMasterRevan, Sep 26, 2004.

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  1. JediMasterRevan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2004
    star 4
    Is just finished watching ROTJ and I noticed that at the end it shows the three of them all standing there together. I know that Lucas decided to make Anakin into Hayden, but why did Lucas not make Obi-Wan into Ewan. I think that it is kind of stupid that Anakin is young but Obi-Wan is still old. Well thats just my thoughts I want to know what you guys think.


    TLJ Edit: we don't need any more ghost threads
  2. WLDB Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 11, 2004
    star 4
    I think its because Obi Wan died in that form. And Anakin was sort of killed when he was Hayden. Well thats the last time when he was intact. Physically.
  3. DarthyMarkyMark Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2003
    star 4
    Anakin suffered a spiritual death in RotS, in the form of Hayden - that's what Anakin's spirit looks like. But he doesn't join the Force at the end of RotS, because he's still tied to the Vader-body, which is being kept alive by Vader's hate. By the end of RotJ, Anakin's spirit is able to finally defeat Vader - but his spirit still looks like Hayden.
  4. DarthLassic007 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2002
    star 6
    But Anakin died at the end of ROTJ as an old man.
  5. NathanAlan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2004
    star 1
    When Anakin became Vader, the good man he was was killed. ROTJ makes perfect sense.
  6. JediMasterRevan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2004
    star 4
    Not necessarily because he was still good in ROTJ because he saved his son from the emperor. So therefore he is still good but it is deep within him.
  7. WLDB Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 11, 2004
    star 4
    I think Vader isnt evil at all in ROTJ. Think about it he didnt force choke anyone!

    And he was mostly machine at the time. So if they show him the way he was when he died, he would be about Yoda's height.
  8. DarthyMarkyMark Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2003
    star 4
    But Anakin died at the end of ROTJ as an old man.

    But that was not Anakin's body - that was the body of Darth Vader, a body where both arms and legs were probably mechanical, with all kinds of injuries and burns and skin-grafts ... the body that Vader had destroyed through his duel with Obi-Wan. It wasn't Anakin's true form. And anyway, a 45 year old Anakin wouldn't look like Sebastian Shaw - he would like like a 45 year old Hayden. At the end of RotJ, the spirit of Anakin (the Anakin killed by Vader in RotS) is able to finally defeat Vader and say a few last words to Luke through the body that was once his - but in essence he died in RotS, and finally joins the Force very soon after killing Vader in RotJ. Why should Anakin's spirit take the appearance of the mangled body and face of Vader? If he should appear young, they've got it right in the DVD. If he should appear old, his spirit would look like a 45 year old Hayden. Either way, he should never look like Shaw in that scene.
  9. MatthewZ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2003
    star 4
    Ben and Yoda helped Anakin create his force ghost. Hayden was the last Anakin they saw.
  10. Orionsangel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2004
    star 4
    Where do Jedi's go when they die? Are they just ghost in limbo? Do they play cards? I imagine they get bored just walking around? Is there a Jedi ghost temple?
  11. DarthLassic007 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2002
    star 6
    ***And anyway, a 45 year old Anakin wouldn't look like Sebastian Shaw - he would like like a 45 year old Hayden. If he should appear young, they've got it right in the DVD. If he should appear old, his spirit would look like a 45 year old Hayden. Either way, he should never look like Shaw in that scene.***

    That's like saying OT Obi-Wan should have been played by Ewan since Alec Guiness doesn't look like PT Obi-Wan.
  12. woj101 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2000
    star 1
    While speculation is fine on this topic, at this stage there can be no right or wrong. Until we understand how the Jedi are able to maintain a spiritual presence (another 230-odd days to wait) then we don't know whether a young Hayden, a 45 yr. old Hayden, or Shaw would be correct. As GL does know, let's hope he has thought it through and has made the right decision.
  13. Corbin Ryder Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 1999
    star 1
    I don't know about that, Darth L--didn't you see that cool TV Guide cover that came out about the time II was released? There were a couple different ones that had the picture that changed depending on how you looked at it, and the one I'm referring to had Ewan and Hayden morph into Vader and Sir Alec--and in the latter case it was really effective.
  14. Darth_Skywalker2 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2004
    star 2
    does anybody have the picture at the end of ROTJ, with Hayden?
  15. lmandarino76 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2004
    star 2
    very disturbing, just leave it all alone lucas you insane retard
  16. DarthyMarkyMark Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2003
    star 4
    That's like saying OT Obi-Wan should have been played by Ewan since Alec Guiness doesn't look like PT Obi-Wan.

    Alec Guinness looks sufficiently like a 60 year old Ewan to me to make it work, especially after seeing Ewan's make-up for RotS. The similarity is close enough. But Sebastian Shaw looks NOTHING like Hayden. I can see Ewan looking not too dis-similar to Alec whan he's in his 60s - but do you seriously think that, at 45, Hayden will look anything like the 78 year old Sebastian Shaw we saw in RotJ? Of course he won't. Anakin looks like Shaw under the helmet because of his injuries, his facial disfigurement, his burns and his skin-grafts. If he's going to appear as Shaw in the ghost scene, it should be as a bald, floating torso and head, no arms or legs, with the exact face we saw under the mask. If Anakin's true spirit is 45, it will look like a 45 year old Hayden. Shaw does not belong in that scene, and I'm delighted they removed him.
  17. JediMasterRevan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2004
    star 4
    You think that hayden looks 45 at the end of the movie? He looks more like 20 to me.
  18. DarthLassic007 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2002
    star 6
    Lucas didn't change it because Hayden and Shaw didn't look alike. It was changed because that's how Lucas felt that Anakin would look like after redemption. If Lucas wanted to change it because of looks then he would have had done the DVD change with a 45 year old guy who looks like Hayden.
  19. JediRoof Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2001
    Yes, for me this was also the most disturbing change in the new DVD's. From what we know, Luke has never seen his father (in the form of Hayden) but has seen him as S. Shaw. So when Luke looks out at the Jedi Ghosts now there is someone he has never even laid eyes on before!

    My questions are: Will the PT get the same treatment that the OT has? Why does Lucas continue to tweak the ones considered classic? Will he fix his mistakes in the PT? Just don't say they don't need any tweaking.
  20. DarthyMarkyMark Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2003
    star 4
    I'm not saying Hayden SHOULD appear 45. I'm pointing out that, whether you believe Anakin's spirit would look 23 or look 45, BOTH would look like Hayden at different ages, so Shaw doesn't belong ANYWHERE in that scene. When people say "Anakin was redeemed at 45, so should look like Shaw!", that's a weak argument, as 45 year old Anakin would still look like Hayden. If they wanted that, they'd have given Hayden a bit of make-up to make him look older. But personally, I think they've gone the right way by having him look 23 - at its most basic level, it shows that his soul has been truly redeemed, and he has his innocence back in the Force. That there is the true spirit of Anakin Skywalker, as he is known to the audience.

    JediRoof - do you really think it's easy to tell that Shaw in the un-helmeting scene is the same person as Shaw in the ghost scene? I don't - they look very different to me, due to the injuries. When I first saw the movie, I saw Ben and Yoda, and then ... "Oh, who's that? Oh, that guy must be Anakin - wow, he looks OLD". That was my reaction to it. Now, the reaction will be, "That's the Anakin we know, who has been redeemed". As for who Luke would recognise, he would KNOW that this young man is Anakin - he'd just know it. Luke is seeing these visions through the Force, he'd know who they are.

    And yes, the PT is being given little tweaks as we speak, as well as more tweaks being made to the OT. Little things like a digital Yoda in TPM are being added, I guess.
  21. JediMaster_Jen Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2002
    star 4
    His ghost should really look like Jake Lloyd. That's the last time the little cretin was half way decent. [face_laugh]
  22. TITO-WAN_KENOBI Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    Ironically (or sadly) I just had a conversation with two fellow fans here in my university about the new ending of ROTJ.
    First, let me write a safety clause: there's no perfect solution. All arguments that I've read today seem to, some more than others, hold water.
    However, I do feel the end SHOULD NOT have been changed. Let see why?

    Obviously we have 4 alternatives: the original (with Shaw), another older actor who looks like Hayden, Hayden alterted to look older or the young Hayde. Lets expore. For what we believe has happened in the movie should dictate who we see.

    "The good man who was your father was destroyed" OB1 K in ROTJ. Obi wan had lost almost all hope that Anakin was redeemable. Thats why he says "then the emperor has already won" when luke refuses to kill his father. Anakin was reedemable and he came back. It is ANAKINS face we see when Luke take off the mask. Anakin came back and destroyed Darth Vader. It would destroy that poignant scene if we figure that Anakin is long gone and that its darth vader who is speaking. Therefore I think there is no sense to put a young anakin, it will kill his redemption AS AN OLD MAN.
    The other alternatives can be easily looked at. It makes no sense to put an older hayden or a look like Hayden old actor because it SHOULD match to the face we see in the Death Star when luke takes off the mask. again, that IS Anakin. So we are left with keeping Shaw who is not THAT UNLIKE hayden (we should wonder more about Yodas metamorphosis from TPM, AOTC and ESB). Let us believe that is how anakin would look like, like we did betwen jake lloyd and hayden.

    does it hold water?
  23. Lord-Zekk Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 2003
    star 1
    *Anakin was reedemable and he came back. It is ANAKINS face we see when Luke take off the mask. Anakin came back and destroyed Darth Vader. It would destroy that poignant scene if we figure that Anakin is long gone and that its darth vader who is speaking. Therefore I think there is no sense to put a young anakin, it will kill his redemption AS AN OLD MAN.*

    At the end of RotJ, Anakin is in the body of Darth Vader. On top of that, the body didn't disappear, so we can say that Anakin "disappear" when he was Hayden back in RotS, and his spirit was trapped inside Vader because of all the hatred. So when he was finally released from Vader, he was reborn the way he remembered himself.
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