Yoda or Emperor, the question is now? Or maybe Windu?

How was Vader using his full darkside powers in his duel with Obi Wan?? his eyes were not even yellow which means he was never fully immersed in the darkside like he was when he slaughtered all those guys on mustafar!!!!!! That is the only time save when he is getting burnt that he taps fully into the darkside...against Obi Wan he wasn't giving it his all, the fact that they could converse in the duel and talk about what he is doing, and the fact that Obi Wan was defending with his life more than he had ever done...Anakin was nowhere near unleashing his full darkside potential

 

Why are you guys so determined to believe that Mace Windu was weaker in compare to Sidious or Yoda. You don't that. You have no idea how strong or weak he is. And yet, you're making assumptions. Why? What did Mace Windu do that has many of you expressing such opinions about him?

In the book on the making of ROTS, Lucas made one thing perfectly clear . . . only three Jedi Knights were powerful enough to face and possibly defeat Palpatine - Anakin Skywalker, Yoda and Mace Windu. No matter how many times I have mentioned this, I am still reading posts that Mace could not successfuly defeat or Palpatine or fight the latter to a draw. Why is that? What is it about Mace Windu that leads you to believe he is inferior in the Force or an inferior duelist in compare to Palpatine and Yoda?

 

So what were they supposed to do? They had to stop the Sith from keeping their grip on the galaxy. That is their duty as Jedi.

If that's the case, you might as well say that it was the Sith's duty to rid the galaxy of the Jedi. Is that what the Force users in the galaxy supposed to be about? Destroying those who believe in the opposite?

 

As far as who can beat who and when and how can depends a lot on circumstances. Battles in history have been won or lost with lots of surprises thrown in.

 

How was Vader using his full darkside powers in his duel with Obi Wan?? his eyes were not even yellow which means he was never fully immersed in the darkside like he was when he slaughtered all those guys on mustafar!!!!!! That is the only time save when he is getting burnt that he taps fully into the darkside...against Obi Wan he wasn't giving it his all, the fact that they could converse in the duel and talk about what he is doing, and the fact that Obi Wan was defending with his life more than he had ever done...Anakin was nowhere near unleashing his full darkside potential

 

that is probably because the only reason he had turned to the dark side in the first place was to save padme from dying... and although he thought obi wan and padme came to kill him on mustafar, he wasnt giving his all because he was still friends sort of...(think about it... have you ever fought one of your friends? sure you want to inflict a little pain but, you certainly dont want to kill them...)it is either this previous scenario i just stated or:

he was using his full dark side potential during the whole duel its just that lucas and his people were too lazy to fill in the eye effects...lol

and i believe in the OT that vader was at about 30% of his potential because he was most certainly weakened from being confined to the suit and he was probably sad about everything he had done wrong and just felt like there was no more need to go on or somethign like that... who knows...

 

and i believe in the OT that vader was at about 30% of his potential because he was most certainly weakened from being confined to the suit and he was probably sad about everything he had done wrong and just felt like there was no more need to go on or somethign like that... who knows...


So, let me get this straight. Anakin loses an arm in AOTC and within three years becomes twice as powerful with the Force. He loses another arm and his two legs and becomes WEAKER with the Force.

Shouldn't Anakin's connection to the Force have weakened after losing his arm in AOTC? Or perhaps he should have become six times more powerful after losing his other limbs in ROTS?

 

interesting, i don't see any of what you saw when watching the film, i see no clear advantage with a saber between those two.

Clearly imo while their saber skills and knowledge of the force are both very close to equal Sidious has a great deal more stamina and possibly raw power in his force abilities.

Sidious can maintain a peak use of his power for a much greater time than yoda can and at times it seemed as if he's just a bit more powerful than yoda as well.

I'd say Mace actually appeared to be a better swordsman than either of them but then i'd say Dooku was the best with a saber in the entire PT.

 

I obviously agree with your synopsis that the two are extremely close in terms of Force ability. I however, happen to believe that Yoda is slightly more powerful in the Force than Sidious; but not by much. Never once did I see Sidious display more "stamina" or "raw power" than Yoda in terms of his Force abilities. Granted, his power to throw multiple pods at Yoda while levitating upon one himself was simply EXTRAORDINARY! Yet, Yoda's agility to outmanuever Sidious and defy gravity by stopping, rotating, and returning a pod with the same velocity at Sidious UPHILL mind you, was equally, if not more impressive; at least in my opinion. Listen, we are all entitled to our opinion as to who was the better swordsman. Yet the simple fact remains: Yoda clearly disarmed Sidious as I previously mentioned in earlier posts. If disarming someone of their weapon isn't grounds for declaring them the stronger performer than I simply don't know what is??


I will go so far as to say this: Sidious is a weaker light saber duelist than Yoda or Mace. My reason: both of them disarm him. That is incontrovertible. His (Sidious) strengths lie in his ability to manipulate a given situation for his own advantage, and to use the Force with seemingly insurmountable power that can ONLY rival Yoda's...
In terms of Mace's Force strengths, we never really witness them on screen so to comment is pure speculation. Granted, Lucas does mention that the three Jedi who are capable of hanging with Palpatine are Anakin, Yoda, and Mace. Yet, we never witness Mace display his Force abilities, so we can assume that Yoda is the more powerful... I look foward to your response!

 

i'll keep it short for now, and give you more details tomorrow since i'm on the way to bed but the reason i say sidious displays more stamina is when Yoda retreats he looks beaten and tired. At the same time there is sidious still cackling like a mad man and seemingly ready to keep going at that level, a level i don't think Yoda could continue to match. I like Yoda a lot, one of my favorite characters, 400 years ago he'd have won that fight. As it stands to me the visual clues are clear that Yoda is too far past his prime to match up with Sidious and keep exerting himself on that level indefinately, or even as long as Sidious can continue the fight.

 

Funny, I had a feeling that you were going to bring up the duel's conclusion where Yoda appeared weak and tired. However, if that's the case than why did he (Yoda) try to hang on to the pod? Or, if Sidious was more powerful, than why didn't he fall down to Yoda's level and continue the fight there? My response: Yoda listened to the Force and realized that the Republic was doomed and he knew that his presence would be needed elsewhere (Luke). So to stay and fight would have put his life in a very precarious situation. Furthermore, Sidious (in my opinion) appeared to be just as "beaten" and "tired" as Yoda after the duel. Why was he HANGING ON FOR DEAR LIFE just praying that he didn't fall? Because he realized that Yoda was able to absorb and reflect his most powerful lightning. Yet, that delves into a forum of debate that seems to just be endless. In the final analysis the two opponents were hanging onto their own pod for differnt reasons: Yoda wanted to hang on so he could continue the fight, Sidious wanted to hang on so he could END THE FIGHT. Remember, that was the second time that Sidious tried to get out of dueling Yoda. Once, in the beginning of the duel in his office; the second: while he was trying with all his might, to hang on to the pod.
I'm glad we found an area of agreement in regards to Yoda being one of our favorite characters! Talk to ya tomorrow.

 

Please point out to me the exact moment when this is most CLEAR to you. Pause the DVD and let me know the time so I can cue it up to that exact moment. I want to see when Sidious was at a clear disadvantage, when dueling with the Jedi Master.

There was no clear cut advantage for either of them.

Period.

Yoda had to.
Simple physics explain that one.
Sidious was younger, bigger, faster and stronger than Yoda without using the force. Yoda had to exert more to compensate for his lack of physical stature. All of Sidious noise-making was part of his schtick, his persona. With saber in hand, Sidious alternated from the howl, to the cackle and back to the howl and was no worse for the wear. The only time it was genuine, IMO, was a little later on when Yoda bore down and reflected the lightning enough to cause the explosion between them.

I must have missed the second one...

***

Any discussions about their display of force powers begins with my signature. At the end, Yoda got pwned in that department.

 

In terms of Mace's Force strengths, we never really witness them on screen so to comment is pure speculation. Granted, Lucas does mention that the three Jedi who are capable of hanging with Palpatine are Anakin, Yoda, and Mace. Yet, we never witness Mace display his Force abilities, so we can assume that Yoda is the more powerful... I look foward to your response!

We can assume? Why? If Lucas did mention that Anakin, Yoda and Mace are the only ones powerful enough to face Palpatine, why should we assume that Mace is the least powerful in Force abilities? I really find it difficult to accept that we supposed to accept this as fact, because we didn't see the full extent of Mace's abilties on the movie screen.

 

Remember the part where Sidious is hanging on to the pod, yelling, just hoping to hang on after Yoda fell?

 

I kind of missed this thread for sime time now, so excuse me for not being totally up to date

In my opinion, the saber lock is evidence of how strong the opponent is in the force. No way would OBW otherwise lose to Dooku, who lost to Yoda who won over Sideous. Mace, from what we could see, drawed with Sideous. There is nothing clear-cut here, but that's how I see it. Yoda is the strongest in a saber block followed by Sideous and Mace.

SithStarSlayer: Yoda had no need to repell all the pods back at Sideous. It would only lose him precious time, as it seemed that Yoda was fighting on a time schedule. Yoda tried to get to Sideous. Note also that when Yoda does direct the one pod back at Sideous, Sideous stops chucking them - an indication that he realizes that that won't do it! In the lightning duel I think Yoda had the upper hand - otherwise Lucas would not have made the faces the way he did!

All in all, they were quite equal - but I think Yoda was slightly stronger, not by much though. And as we saw, it was so close that ultimately the circumstances settled the score!

 

Though I highly doubt Yoda could have stopped them all, I can live with your reasoning about the pods Rossa. But for others to suggest that there was a clear-cut advantage displayed by Yoda when dueling the Dark Lord defies logic! Not once, did Yoda or Sidious break a saber lock and simultaneously push the other back. The films do not support this line of thinking for either side. "Their Light Saber Duel" was the Star Wars definition of a draw.

As Sinister has said before, Sidious was an actor. IMO, all of his hooting and cackling was a part of his fighting style.

 

Well supposedly there is a cut scene where Yoda disarms Sidious.
(Lucas didnt want to "show" Sidious lose his saber both times in the only two saber duels that he had.)
But this is why when the scene cuts away they were fighting with sabers and when it comes back Sidious is "saberless" and Yoda still has his saber.
I mean obviously he didnt just "put it back in his pocket" .

So if this is true then what's shown onscreen is that Mace and Yoda both are better swordsmen than Sidious and can defeat him in a lightsaber duel...... now who would win in a "battle of the force" was never really determined by either duel.

 

I agree. They were very equal. Yoda was the one who pushed back the saber-lock though - but not pushing Sideous meters back if that's what some believe. And both you and Sinister are right in my opinion - the cackling and hooting was his fighting style. Perhaps he was trying to distract the opponent, who knows.

And for the record: I don't think Mace could've handled Sideous in the same situation as Yoda. We don't even know if Mace can fight well without a saber. According to OBW in AOTC a lightsaber is a Jedi's life, thus ending it without it, and this leads me on to believe that most Jedi rely on their saber, something Yoda nor Sideous does...

 

I agree! Yoda was the better swordsman period. He disarmed his opponent hence, that makes him stronger with a saber.

I totally agree with you Rossa! It's good seeing you again! Yes, Yoda displays his ability to push back the saber lock, and in each instance he controls every one. Yes yes. We all agree that Mace is very powerful. Powerful enough to defeat Sidious in a saber match. Essentially, we never see him use his Force powers, so how can we determine if he was strong enough "without" a saber to conquer him? Lucas very explicitly states that Mace is one of the three Jedi who can hang and defeat Sidious, but does that mean with just a saber? I am inclined to think that it does.

 

We all agree that Mace is very powerful. Powerful enough to defeat Sidious in a saber match. Essentially, we never see him use his Force powers, so how can we determine if he was strong enough "without" a saber to conquer him? Lucas very explicitly states that Mace is one of the three Jedi who can hang and defeat Sidious, but does that mean with just a saber? I am inclined to think that it does.


Why? Why are you making this assumption about Mace? Why can?t you just admit that none of us know? Why are so many making assumptions that Mace is not as strong in the Force as either Sidious or Yoda? It seems as if many want to accept this as fact. Again . . . why? Why assume that this is true? Because the full extent of Mace?s abilities was never shown on screen? If it hasn't, why can?t many just accept that no onereally knows how powerful Mace is, and stop making assumptions?

 

Very well RamRed, I'll concede: no one truely knows just how powerful Mace would have been in a Force duel with Sidious. Listen, throughout the PT we never witness Mace display any Force power. Why is that? Perhaps he is not as powerful as Yoda? (I'm convinced he's not.) All we see is him being very effective with a light saber. I can honestly say however, that I am very skeptical as to how well he could perform against Sidious without a lightsaber the way Yoda could. For examply, I'm not sure if he would be able to absorb and reflect lightning with his bare hands? Do I think that Mace could defeat Sidious with a saber? Duh, he already showed us he could do that. Do I think that Mace could have performed at the caliber that Yoda did in the Senate Chambers? I DON'T KNOW? The reason for my (and many others would agree) uncertainty is that Mace was never shown to possess the type of Force knowledge that someone like Yoda possessed. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to assasinate Mace's character. I happen to think that he is extremely powerful; an above-average Jedi in terms of ability; as well as one of my favorite characters. However, I am unsure as to what the outcome would be between him and Sidious in a Force duel. Yes, Lucas says that Windu can beat Sidious, but does that mean with or without a saber? Is that in a Force duel or not? We don't know. Finally, I can honestly say that my uncertainty is justified because never once in the films did I see Windu possess the types of powers that Yoda had.

I am not making a "biased" "assumption" as I sense you believe I'm making. Rather I am merely trying to express my doubt in Mace's ability (not his light saber ability) simply because I never saw it. Therefore, I cannot rush to assume that he would defeat Sidious in a Force duel.

 

Absorb and reflect lightning is very unique Jedi power and I think that of all Jedi only Yoda could have used it.

I still think that Sidious was buying a time before Anakin comes.His attention was not to kill Mace, then to show Anakin that Jedi are evil and he is only a "victim".

Darth Sidious - I'm too weak, please don't kill me.