Yoda or Emperor, the question is now? Or maybe Windu?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by DarthLegion012, Oct 16, 2006.

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  1. OBIJUAN76 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2006
    star 2
    "Absorb and reflect lightning is a very unique Jedi power and I think that of all the Jedi, only Yoda could have used it."

    I agree with you. That is one of the reasons why I'm so uncertain that Mace could beat Sidious in a "Force Duel" mind you. In terms of his swordsmanship Mace is better. In terms of the Windu/Sidious duel, I believe that the saber portion was genuine: Lucas states: And here we see Mace disarm Sidious of his saber". That part of the duel is not in question. Sidious was trying to kill Mace. Period. However, Mace disarmed him. The next part is worthy of speculation. I believe that once Sidious was on the ground he displayed his ability to manipulate given situations to meet his needs. He played possum. That however, is only my opinion. Therefore, Mace legitimately disarmed Sidious. He could have killed him there had Anakin not arrived. However, once Sidious was o
  2. jedi_prime Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2005
    star 2
    An excerpt from the ROTS Script:

    Just as MACE is about to slash PALPATINE, ANAKIN steps in and cuts off the Jedi's hand holding the lightsaber.

    As MACE stares at ANAKIN in shock, PALPATINE springs to life.
    The full force of Palpatine's powerful Bolts blasts MACE. He attempts to deflect them with his one good hand, but the force is too great. As blue rays engulf his body, he is flung out the window and falls twenty stories to his death. No more screams. No more moans. PALPATINE lowers his arm.

    To me, this indicates that Mace had the ability to deflect the lightning, though he either a) was too weak or unfocused to do so or b) could not do so due to the loss of his hand. The
  3. RamRed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4
    Very well RamRed, I'll concede: no one truely knows just how powerful Mace would have been in a Force duel with Sidious. Listen, throughout the PT we never witness Mace display any Force power. Why is that? Perhaps he is not as powerful as Yoda? (I'm convinced he's not.)

    So, when Mace lept from the balcony on Geonosis, high into the air while removing his burning robe and landing safely on his feet, he was not using the Force?

    And why are you convinced that he is not as powerful as Yoda? Because you didn't see any evidence one way or the other? Is that how you came to a conclusion?
  4. OBIJUAN76 Jedi Knight

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    Feb 6, 2006
    star 2
  5. Malikail Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2004
    star 4
    Yoda might be the only jedi who can reflect and absorb lightning with his hands, we never see another jedi do it so maybe he is the only one who knows how, i can't say.

    Dooku knew how, he did it in AotC with one of his own bolts Yoda threw back at him.
  6. PrinceEspaaValorum Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2005
    star 4
    Actually, he is the Emperor of the Force!:p

    And I agree with your post, both concerning English (I teach ESLin Japan) and the SW-related content of your post.
  7. SLASHAXL Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2005
    star 1
    Somebody stated earlier that the emperor and Yoda were equal as swordsman but sidious was superior with the force powers since he was throwing lots of pods and yoda only returned one.

    Well actually if you look a bit closer, yoda has his lightsaber ignited and jumps from pod to pod looking to get to sidious. Sidious seems to have lost his lightsaber at this stage. Its only after yoda has a near miss with a pod, he clips his lightsaber onto his belt and decides to throw one back at sidious. he just spins it as it will be harder to stop.

    The point is that sidious throwing pods never showed him as being the superior force user. he had to throw pods at yoda, his little green friend who most likely destroyed the dark lords lightsaber was moving up the senate towards him with his lightsaber still intact. Yoda had no intention of wasting time playing force games. Its likely he would get tired before sidious, since it was such a long battle. His sole intention was to slice sidious in half.

    George Lucas said that Sidious, Yoda and mace were all around the same power. And his next famous line was "anakin could beat the emperor too, if he hadnt got all beat up." leaving us all debating if Anakin / Darth Vader was at any point during ROTS capable of defeating the emperor.
  8. Malikail Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2004
    star 4
    being of about the same power level is not enough.

    ignoring circumstance, often critical in these battles there are other factors.

    Experience is huge and in this area Yoda is probably king.

    Stamina is huge, Mace, Sidious, and Anakin would all have an edge of Yoda in this because Yoda is geriatric, actually Yoda shows all the physical signs of being in human terms about 90 years old.

    I don't know if you're refering to me or someone else, my point on sidious vs yoda was that Sidious was able to maintain his peak force use longer than Yoda and seemed far less 'winded' when Yoda withdrew than yoda did.

    It's not that yoda is less powerful that i argue, it's that his prime years are long behind him and he's not the combatant he was 400 years earlier.

    it's not a knock against yoda that as he nears the natural end of his life cycle that his body has begun to fade and requires more augmentation through the force in order for him to still combat at a high level.

    it's testimony to how powerful Yoda was in his prime that he's still able to compete with the Emporer, Mace or Anakin at all.

    While there is no question that he's more experienced and wiser, i was quite suprised that Yoda at his advanced age was able to fight Dooku to a draw and narrowly lose to Sidious, really quite commendible since few others could have done this even in their primes.
  9. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    I agree with your post. Take this lousy example[face_clown] :

    If you're driving between cones, slalom driving to test the cars ability (not really sure about the english-term here (elk-test???), but you get the point). You drive between the coins, to avoid them. The point is to get to the finish line at the end of it exactly like Yoda's intention was. Now, if you stop to pick up each cone you're sure to lose quite a lot of time. You certainly won't hit any, but you won't have anything to tell your grandchildren - or Luke:p . So what you do, as Yoda did, you race the hell through those cones to get to your finish line - and that's what Yoda did. :p
  10. mooglar Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 5, 2004
    Jumping in here with a few thoughts.

    First, I don't think there's any way that Palpatine lost the lightsaber duel with Mace intentionally, because there's far too much risk that, once Palpatine is disarmed, Mace will just kill him. Yes, I know, it's not the Jedi way, and someone's going to say that Palpatine was counting on Mace being a good Jedi and not killing him. But that means that, after what, at least fifteen or twenty years of planning and scheming to take over the galaxy, Palpatine was willing to risk all his plans and goals based on his assumption of what Mace would do?

    I don't buy that. Given the depths of Palpatine's betrayal and the fact that he just killed three Jedi in front of Mace, there's just too much chance that the badass SLJ-looking Jedi who likes to fight and flirts with the Dark Side when he fights would just cut him down. Sure, Mace'd probably feel bad about it, just like Anakin did after beheading Dooku, but that wouldn't be much comfort to Palpy, now, would it?

    In regards to Yoda's fight with Sidious, it always seemed pretty obvious to me that Yoda wants to face Sidious with his lightsaber and not with the Force. As noted earlier in this thread, instead of throwing Senate pod back at Sidious or otherwise using the Force, Yoda keeps jumping around and reactivating his lightsaber, clearly trying to get up there and cut Sidious down.

    Does this mean, however, that Sidious is more powerful in the Force than Yoda? Not necessarily. It could simply mean that Yoda thinks his best chance of success is using his lightsaber. Additionally, as Palpy says, "The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural." No matter whether Yoda is more or less powerful than Sidious, Sidious has a wider array of Force powers and techniques at his disposal than Yoda does, and given this, Yoda feels it is wisest to face Sidious where the playing field is the most level, ie, with a lightsaber.

    Also, watch the moment when Sidious knocks the lightsaber out of Yoda's hand frame-by-frame sometime. You'll see something pretty interesting, I think. Yoda puts his right hand out to block Sidious' lightning, but Sidious aims at Yoda's left hand and knocks the saber away instead. Yoda assumed Sidious would aim at him, but Sidious cleverly shot to disarm. This is an example of how Sidious' powers are more versatile than Yoda's, not necessarily more powerful. Yoda can block Sidious' lightning with his sheer power in the Force, but Sidious didn't need to be more powerful, just a little trickier.

    So, I would say that Yoda is a better duelist than Sidious, based on his disarming Sidious (assuming we believe that happened even though we don't see it). I don't know who is more powerful in the Force, however, because Sidious' advantage over Yoda isn't in sheer Force ability, but in having more options through the Dark Side.

    I also think, given that I doubt that Palpatine is sandbagging in his fight with Mace, that Mace is a better duelist than Sidious. But I do think it likely that Yoda is more powerful in the Force than Mace, though not a lot. I don't think Mace can block Force lightning without a lightsaber like Yoda can. We only see Yoda do that for a reason, because only he CAN do it. But still, I don't know if Sidious is more powerful in the Force than Mace or not.

    As far as Anakin goes, I don't think he's more powerful than Sidious in Ep. III. He just had more potential. As Sidious says to Yoda, "Darth Vader will /become/ more powerful than either of us," [emphasis mine].

    And why didn't losing a hand diminsh Anakin's Force power but what happened on Mustafar did? Well, I don't think it's as simple as how many limbs he lost. Anakin wasn't mortally injured on Genosis. He lost an arm, but was otherwise still healthy and hale, and full of vigor and energy, ie, with a strong connection to the Force. But after Mustafar, Anakin is on life support and essentially in intensive car for the rest of his life. He can't breathe on his own, circulate his blood on his own, or survive wi
  11. RamRed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4
    I don't buy that. Given the depths of Palpatine's betrayal and the fact that he just killed three Jedi in front of Mace, there's just too much chance that the badass SLJ-looking Jedi who likes to fight and flirts with the Dark Side when he fights would just cut him down.


    Uh, what is this perception that Mace likes to flirt with the Dark Side? Mace had recognized that he was an aggressive fighter and that he had both light and darkness within himself (something that other Jedi Knights also possessed, but have not admitted as far as I know) and developed a fighting style to deal with it - namely Vaapad.
  12. OBIJUAN76 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2006
    star 2
  13. windu25 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 1
    RAMRED
    Uh, what is this perception that Mace likes to flirt with the Dark Side? Mace had recognized that he was an aggressive fighter and that he had both light and darkness within himself (something that other Jedi Knights also possessed, but have not admitted as far as I know) and developed a fighting style to deal with it - namely Vaapad.


    You should check out "Shatterpoint" or just click on the "EU" tab on Maces bio page at starwars.com. Mace through his inner strenght can resist the Darkside...but everyone else who learned the Vapaad fell to the Darkside.
  14. RamRed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4
    And that just showed he had better control than those who had surrendered to their inner darkness.


    Yes, he is strong enough to defeat Palpatine. Nevertheless, I am simply going off what I saw on screen; and what I witnessed while watching the film was that Mace did not possess said power. I look foward to your response.

    Why not simply admit . . . I don't know. Three little words. I don't know.
  15. SLASHAXL Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2005
    star 1
  16. SLASHAXL Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2005
    star 1
    I agree with everything above mooglar, The thing about anakin is he lost the lower part of his arm, but with his off the wall potential he would still surpass all other sith and jedi.

    I think he could have beaten the Sidious at the time of the Mustafar duel in ROTS. Well in a lightsaber duel at least. I know he didnt possess the knowledge of the force or the powers that Sidious or yoda might possess. But in lightsaber combat he IMO would outpower them. His mental state would be his weakness.

    Potential can only be realised with knowledge which takes time. but at the rate Anakins power was growing it would not take very long at all for him to overpower sidious. His powers probably did double in between his 2 meetings with Count Dooku.

    But Mustafar not only did he lose his other limbs, His intenal organs were all damaged. Midi-chlorians reside inside the cells, and after being burned alive he probably killed off alot of midi-chlorians ( I assume, who really knows ). So his potential was about 80% of his masters. But he was still on Darth Maul and Count Dooku power level. So he was more than a match for the majority of the jedi ( before ROTS ).
  17. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    I think he would because there are too many moments that showed that Palpatine would still be the victor in this duel such as:

    -Mace's retreat. After killing the other 3 Jedi, Palpatine had Mace against the ropes and he even pointed his saber at his chest where Palps could've finished him in the same lightning pace as he did the other Jedi but he chose not to capitalise since he could sense that Anakin is on his way to help him.

    -The 2nd lightsaber....since Palps had one ready when he fought Yoda, he may have had it in robes throughout the whole time he was fighting Mace so even if Mace had won, Palps would've pulled out that saber and killed Mace in a surprise attack.

    -The "Darth Maul treatment" (as in make your enemies think they've won so that you can surprise them and kill them before they even realise what's happening). Palpatine has fooled both Mace and Anakin into thinking that he was hurt after Mace deflected the force lightning back at Palps. Even if Anakin hadn't showed up to betray Mace, Palpatine would've still blasted him out the window before Mace can run him through with his lightsaber.

    Finally, given that Palpatine has decieved everyone for years, there was no doubt that he intentionally threw the fight against Mace because no matter what happens, Mace was still a dead man long before he came into Palpatine's office.
  18. jedi_jacks Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2005
    star 4
    Great thread, I feel I must support my master here.

    OBI-WAN: If you'd spend as much time working on your saber skills as you do on your wit, young Padawan, you would rival Master Yoda as a swordsman.
    ANAKIN: I thought I already did.
    OBI-WAN: Only in your mind, my very young apprentice. Careful!! Hey, easy!!


    It'd be cool if Yoda was a lightside Jedi, Windu a darkside Jedi, and Sidious a Sith -- and then they battled it out in one fight. Plus, each one gets to pick an apprentice for the fight.
  19. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    He did have his arm fully stretched when pointing his saber against Windu's chest. The chances are higher that he did try to run him through but failed than he retreated. I wouldn't say Sideous had him at his ropes either. It is to be expected that such a duel will go back and forth. Every duel with two equally powerful opponents will proceed in those lines. (unless you get a lucky shot)

    I think I read in the OS that the reason Mace was killed was that he was so fixated on Sideous, with the possibility of knowing that Sideous would try a surprise attack - my guess -. Mace knew that Sideous was faking his weakness, and that is why he wanted to end it there and then...

    That is the same argument as above. Where is your evidence that Palpatine would blast him out the window without Anakin's help? The evidence on-screen shows that Palpatine tried that, but failed. Had he succeeded Anakin would have turned - seeing explicitly that the dark-side is stronger, because Mace (one of the strongest Jedi) lost. Palpatine tried to defeat Mace, but lost and resorted to another method in which he succeeded. Bright guy:p

    Yes, there is much doubt. Otherwise we would not be having this argument8-}
    Before Anakin enters the room when Sideous and Mace is fighting in a saber lock it is Sideous who is struggling the most going by their facial expressions. Why would he do that? He was fighting a very real fight, in which he at first suffered a set-back (I think we can call it that). But it is here that Sideous shows how brilliant he is. He is able to reverse a very bad situation, something the Jedi in the PT are not capable of...
  20. OBIJUAN76 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2006
    star 2
    I think we need to look at it like this: Mace won the lightsaber portion. Lucas clearly states that. That does not mean that Sidious could somehow sense Anakin was on his way to rescue him. No. Sidious was clearly on his own until Anakin showed up. If Sidious was faking the lightsaber portion than don't you think Lucas would have mentioned it? "And here we see Mace overpower Palpatine with his lightsaber", or something like that. That quote implies that both Mace and Sidious were engaged in a very hostile duel. No where does Lucas mention "Oh yeah Sidious allowed Mace to overpower him." No. Mace beat him.
    Now in terms of the lightning on the ground, that was more of a show to lure Anakin. I think that if Sidious wanted to use his most powerful lightning against Mace "with" a saber, Mace still would have stood a VERY good chance of beating him.
  21. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    Good post!
    I agree. I think that's a very valid interpretation of what we see on-screen, and of what Lucas has said about the duel!!
  22. RamRed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4
    Now in terms of the lightning on the ground, that was more of a show to lure Anakin.

    When did Lucas confirm this? That the lightning was fake?

  23. OBIJUAN76 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2006
    star 2
    You misunderstand me. The lightning was real. However, I don't think it was Palpatine's most potent lightning. He (Palpatine) was allowing himself (in the Force scene) to appear to be in greater danger than he really was, so as to force Anakin to turn. As I mentioned earlier, I think that had Sidious used his most powerful lightning Mace still would have been powerful enough "with" a saber to absorb and repel it though.
  24. DarthLegion012 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2006
    star 1
    This I mentioned earlier in this thread.Sidious in fact used this duel to turn Anakin.


    And I must mention something that I noticed in this thread.I have noticed that this thread has turned into the costant battle betwen fans who "worship" certain characters of this three that I mentioned in my thread.This was not my intention when I posted this thread.We must act clearly in this one and conclude wich one of this characters was most powerful by using that what we have seen in movies.I myself am a fan of Sidious and I still don't think that he was more powerful than Yoda.I also have noticed that many judged me because I think that Windu couldn't defeat Sidious.Some of you have also misunderstand me by saying that I have appraised Windu as a simple Jedi muscle.That is so not truth.If it was a truth I would never placed him in my thread as one of top three most powerful Force sensitives in movies.I also must say that I am sorry because I didn't mentioned Anakin in this thread.I have only this justification: I simply thought that he wasn't experinced enough, but the fact stays that he was the most powerful in the Force, but he had an untrained power that hasn't been demostrated in the movies.O:)
  25. windu25 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 1
    GL said Sidious wasn't faking until he was beaten. "So Mace can beat Sidious."
    He did beat him, but then Anakin becomes a traitor.

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