Yoda or Mace

dont have too......

 

al-RIGHT.

Let's keep it clean, boys.

This thread could probably be locked for a while anyway; it's not like we're getting any further on the matter.

 

they wont lock it as long as we stay on topic....

 

Mace is stronger, Yoda is wiser



MasterPower

 

ahhh master p lends his wisdom to the debate, thank you

 

I would just like to put out that for all the criticism Mace has recieved for it, Yoda is actually the much more elitist, "ivory tower" Jedi that's out of touch with the common people. In the PT, he lives on Coruscant for the most part in isolation, as he meditates by himself, or instructs Younglings. Afterwards, he decides to spend the rest of his life cooped up on Dagobah, in complete isolation. Further, while on Geonosis Mace, Anakin, Kenobi and the other 200 Jedi were willing to go fight in the trenches, while Yoda was the only one who insisted on being taken to a command center that was comparatively remote from the action.

Curious that even in the OT, Yoda refused to take part in anything even though he was clearly the strongest of the living Jedi. Also, he seems to presume a great amount of knowledge for someone who, in his speciality (apparently seeing the future), is for the most part ineffective throughout the Saga.

 

agreed wocky, i have been feeling the sameway latley .yoda for all his strength and forsight really has not made a contribution to the saga as much as the "weaker" jedi has..

 

there hasnt been one time in the entire saga where yoda sensed the future correctly....so he doesnt really impress me either with his "foresight"

 

there hasnt been one time in the entire saga where yoda sensed the future correctly

Whaaaaa?

 

I've not actually thought about it hard myself, yet, but I would tend to agree. Do you know of a time when he did? Because it seems to me, that most of the time he just says "its too hard to tell" whenever soemone asks him.

 

"fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. I sense much fear in you." Right on the money.

He also pointed out to Luke when Luke had the vision of the "city in the clouds" that the future is cloudy and that it was not certain that his friends would die.

I think the fact that Yoda went to the command centre does not make him a coward. If your generals fight on the front lines, they will die. Then you will have no generals.

Plus, he goes to help Obi-Wan and Anakin with Dooku - sensing a problem where Mace didn't (although it's possible Mace was too busy at the time to notice).

Mace has been in the "Ivory Tower" just as much as Yoda - he didn't leave in TPM, and in AOTC he left only at the end to go to Geonosis.

The one point you make that IS interesting is why Yoda and Ben chose to hide for so many years...you'd think those 2 would be a pretty decent match for Palpatine and Vader.

Of course, when it's the Galactic Empire + Vader + Palps, it's more difficult to do anything about it.

Maybe the only way they could help defeat the Emperor was to lie low and train Luke - sure, they could have helped with the Rebellion, but that would have called the attention of Palps and Vader on them, and they probably would have been killed.

Good debate.

 

GARTH, you always seem to make my points for me.

Yoda never claimed that he was always accurate. On Dagobah, when Luke asked if Han and Leia would die, he said "Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future."
The future is not a set thing, it is shaped by the actions taken in the present. Yoda only sees the most likely outcome, and he knows this. He uses his ability as a guide as to what he should do. He never claimed to be a fortune teller.

 

It's not a matter of him sensing it correctly as much as it is him sensing it incorrectly, I think.

Can you name a time when he senses it incorrectly?


"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate . . . leads to suffering. I sense much fear in you."

"Clouded this boy's future is..."

"The Chosen One the boy may be. Nevertheless, grave danger I fear in his training."


Take this conversation between Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon:

"Master Yoda said I should be mindful of the future."

"But not at the expense of the moment. Be mindful of the living force..."

Like others have said, Yoda doesn't attempt to predict the future. He does, however, sense what might happen depending on how certain things play out. I think he creates the perfect balance of concerning himself with the "here and now" and with the future. He does not sense things incorrectly.

 

woot! always nice to be backed up.

Uh... to continue the debate (?) on how clearly Jedi/Yoda can see the future, it would be nice to get some real info from the time immediately preceding TPM.

Why? Because really, the shroud of the Dark Side fell back around the start of TPM, unless I"m wrong.

Ha ha, one could envision Sidious thinking: "And the shroud will fall....NOW."

I never really understood how one DS user could affect the Force to such an extent, but I guess the Sith are like a cancer (according to Mr. Lucas), so over time, the effects of the Shroud would become increasingly bad, no?

I.e., Yoda could see more clearly at the start of TPM than he could in ROTJ. That's my theory at any rate.

Anyway, to throw some EU into the debate again, there's a passage near the beginning of Shatterpoint where Mace wonders "what happened to Depa?"

He laments that before about 10 years ago (i.e., the events of TPM), the Jedi could basically find out what's going on anywhere in the galaxy by concentrating with the Force.

Not only is it seeing the future, but also seeing the present.

I guess it is (was) like clairvoyance - no wonder the Jedi are disturbed. Being unable to use that power would be like being blinded.

 

there hasnt been one time in the entire saga where yoda sensed the future correctly

i am sure this was stated earlier in the thread, but just wanted bring it up again:
1) Just to echo what Garth and Queenie pointed out regarding the prophecy of Anakin, and the fear and hate in him.

2) While Mace went to rescue Obi at Genosis, Yoda knew they needed more help, and went to Kamino to get the clones. While I am not saying that Yoda ordered the clones, he knew the Jedi would need more to battle the Dooku led Separtists. Although I guess this could be an arguement of how clouded Yoda was, as it sets off the war?

 

"the last of the jedi you will be" WRONG!!!!

didnt yoda utter these words to luke?

Once again yoda knew anakin had all of this anger and pain inside of him after he killed the tuskin radiers.he was the only one to sense it.what does yoda do???? he does notthing he does not question anakin or correct anakin on what he felt for him.why would yoda sense all of the anger in a jedi and do nothing about ???? instead of keeping a close eye on the senate he sould have kept a closer eye on anakin.yoda allowed anakin to run back to naboo,before even fixing the issues that he felt from anakin.so once again yoda had a clear chance to change something and did not make the right choice. where is his foresight again?????????

 

"yoda knew anakin had all of this anger and pain inside of him after he killed the tuskin radiers.he was the only one to sense it.what does yoda do???? he does notthing he does not question anakin or correct anakin on what he felt for him . . . instead of keeping a close eye on the senate he sould have kept a closer eye on anakin.yoda allowed anakin to run back to naboo,before even fixing the issues that he felt from anakin"

That is going on the assumption that we have made that guarding Padme is part of Anakin's trials. However with the revelations made by Dooku, and the cloud of the ds falling maybe Yoda is trying to get Anakin away from potential conflict, away from the darkside, away where hoepfully as far as Yoda is concerned he can get a mental holiday, if you would, and get better control of his emotions.
And not to fully succumb to his emotions by marrying Padme.

 

what you just said has no logic to it at all...there is no such thing as a mental holiday for a jedi.if thats the case then yoda allowed anakin to break teh jedi code and do somthing that jedi are not allowed to do and that is too marry and have attachment .also since when do jedi gaurd someone for thier trials?????? it has never happned .why would yoda send anakin to gaurd someone that he is attached to ?. obiwan already said that his padawan is not ready for such a mission.yoda with all of his foresight should have know that.based on your argument it's yoda fault that he went to the darkside cause he set him up to fail.....

 

"the last of the jedi you will be" WRONG!!!!

didnt yoda utter these words to luke?

How? How is that so wrong? Leia was not a Jedi; neither Sideous, nor Vader. I perceive some reference to EU coming . . . Here's your chance. Enlighten us.

 

a question from you gets no response .....

 

what you just said has no logic to it at all...since when do jedi gaurd someone for thier trials?????? it has never happned .why would yoda send anakin to gaurd someone that he is attached to ?. obiwan already said that his padawan is not ready for such a mission.yoda with all of his foresight should have know that.based on your argument it's yoda fault that he went to the darkside cause he set him up to fail.....

Gee, I thought that Obi-wan said that in the company of Mace Windu. I guess that Mace is completely innocent of any repercussions to this decision as well . . . huh.



Well, at least Obi-wan said that to Yoda and Mace in my version of AOTC.



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he did in my verison also...

 

there is no such thing as a mental holiday for a jedi.if thats the case then yoda allowed anakin to break teh jedi code and do somthing that jedi are not allowed to do and that is too marry and have attachment

1) Granted I do not have a copy of the Jedi manual, but where does it state a mental goes against the Jedi Code. Not that I think they would call it that, but I am sure it would be allowed under a certain pov.

2) Even if I am wrong on that, there have exceptions before,Using the database off the star wars site under the expanded universe section it states, for Ki=Adi-Mundi: Despite adherence to the Jedi philosophies, Ki was, in his hearts, a Cerean. He followed the Cerean custom of polygamous marriage, taking a bond wife, Shea, and four honor wives.

3)"also since when do jedi gaurd someone for thier trials?????? - This has been speculation on various threads on this board. I would give you a hyperlink for them all, but all you do is look, as they are quite abundant.

4} "why would yoda send anakin to gaurd someone that he is attached to ?. obiwan already said that his padawan is not ready for such a mission. - Mech-E already took care of that one for me, thanks Mech-E

 

You're very welcome Ghost




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um,do your homework on ki adi mundi.the only reason he was allowed to marry and have kids is because his race has a very low birthrate and in order for his race to survive they allowed him to do that and thats the only reason!!.that was published in starwars insider #62.second jedi do not go on holidays ,there is no way you can prove that to me.based on eu and the movies there has been no documents or any reference on that issue.so your specualtion has no weight or fact to it.mech e jedi answered nothing, for the simple fact that Yoda is the one who approved for anakin to accompany padme to naboo.he is the one that said he can go, not mace.Mace said that obiwan and anakin shoudl gaurd padme on courscant .Yoda is teh one that said anakin can go to naboo with out his master.