Yoda:Overrated!

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by IAMJOEKING, May 10, 2010.

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  1. IAMJOEKING Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2010
    I've been thinking about this lately and I believe Yoda is overrated. Yes, he's 800 years old and a Jedi Grandmaster but for someone with all of that skill and knowledge, he didn't accomplish much.

    He couldn't see the Dark Side when it mattered most
    He couldn't beat Sidious.
    He ran away(crawled away like a rat) when the stakes were highest.
    His own apprentice went to the Dark Side.
    He didn't prepare Luke well enough to defeat the Emperor in a straight up battle either.
    Qui Gon communed from the dead and he had no idea about that skill until Qui Gonn contacted him.


    I understand that the story needed to be told and that characters would be flawed, but Yoda turned out to be pretty pathetic.
  2. BigBoy29 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2004
    star 3
    There is a flip side to this coin that I'm sure someone will divulge in.

    But all in all, I will agree that Master Yoda is overrated.

    Who is the legendary Master of Dagobah that we entrusted Luke too? The PT was supposed to really give Yoda his "man behind the myth" credentials.

    Which in some ways it did (devastating lightsaber combatant) and in some ways it did not (Jinn is the wise sage, not Yoda)

  3. Slowburn Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2010
    star 4
    Well, that is the thing about force users; when they fight it is sometimes like one brick wall bashing another. Yoda is not all-powerful, if he were he would be called a god and not a man. In the same respect, he cannot turn another man such as Luke into a god. He is, just as his apprentices are, susceptible to the dark side only he never wavered from his course. One cannot deny the fact that he is very powerful and wise compared to most Jedi, but still a man at the end of the day. Overrated? I wouldn't say so. But all legends hold the image of immortality, and if I remember correctly he asked for none of that.
  4. Yodasbadgirl1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2009
    star 5
    Yes his chracter is flawed but a perfect chracter would be boring, if we knew what he was going to do and when he was going to do it, it would make for one very boring movie.
  5. IAMJOEKING Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2010
    Let's not forget about all the Jedi that were slaughtered on his watch too. The Jedi nearly went extinct.
  6. BigBoy29 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2004
    star 3
    To be fair, the PT had to have "The Jedi" screw up along the way.

    Or did the PT have to have the Sith win outright despite the Jedi's best efforts?

    That's the sticking point with Yoda.

    To use a football analogy - Did Yoda choke and lose the game? Or did Palps come strong and win the game?

    I venture to say most fans think the former. And hey Lucas, it was a damn shame to ruin Master Yoda's legacy by making him the QB that fumbles the ball in the 4th quarter.



  7. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    Didn't he already fumble the ball by failing to see good in Vader? If Luke hadn't been such a maverick, he'd of been knighted Darth Blondie.
  8. Yodasbadgirl1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2009
    star 5
    Oh Darth Blondie didn't she sing "Rapture" and "Heart of Glass". Oh you meant Luke [face_laugh] :p
  9. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    I don't think that Yoda was overrated. I think that by the last OT movie, many tend to view him as perfect or all-knowing and all-seeing. But despite his strong connection to the Force, Yoda was still an individual and sentient being; which meant he also had his flaws. There is nothing wrong with that.



    He is, just as his apprentices are, susceptible to the dark side only he never wavered from his course.

    He did waver . . . in his fear of Anakin in TPM, his and the rest of the Jedi Council's attempts to maintain the Jedi's status quo within the Republic, his attempt to kill Palpatine in ROTS and his unwillingness to believe that Anakin/Vader can turn away from the more negative aspect of his nature.


    And hey Lucas, it was a damn shame to ruin Master Yoda's legacy by making him the QB that fumbles the ball in the 4th quarter.

    This doesn't make any sense to me. Are you saying that Yoda wasn't allowed to make mistakes or be a flawed character? Why? Being a Jedi Knight or Master was no guarantee for perfection.
  10. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    ^ I agree. I think people sometimes seem to forget that we are meant to see that the Yoda we see in the OT (and the OT's Obi-Wan, too) is a product of his own experiences in the PT... what he learned about himself and the Jedi and where they were wrong about some things.
  11. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    Amen. What would otherwise be the point in telling the story at all?
  12. BigBoy29 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2004
    star 3
    Because the story should and could have been better.

    Yoda could have been a victim of circumstance, instead of the Jedi fall guy.

    From 1980 to 2000 - most fans thought Luke was getting primo lessons from a top-notch, awesome Master who was a flawless guru - just too old to fight.

    Without the PT, we really trust Kenobi's recommendation, and Yoda has no back-story that contradicts is unflappable image.

    Moreover, the story certainly does not revolve around Yoda. The first film '77 was beloved and there was no Dagobah wise man (that the PT later showed was a beaten bum, not so wise).


    Over-rated ...



  13. dewback_rancher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2009
    star 4
    I fail to see how Yoda is overrated. ANYone would end up looking like a chump if pitted against Darth Sidious- even you. The man is just that good at playing events and people.

    Read the novelization sometime: the Clone Wars was the perfect Jedi trap. It gave them bait they could not, WOULD not avoid (trying to save the Republic) and in fighting at all, the Jedi lost. They'd lost as of Geonosis.

    No Jedi could have won the Clone Wars and avoided what happened. Not even Qui-Gon, for all his perceptiveness. The only option was the Chosen One- and is it any fault of Yoda's that he's not the one destined to end the Sith? No way.

    Just as it's not your fault for not having single-handedly won a war or something, become a huge hero, and live to the end of your days fabulously wealthy and surrounded by hedonistic pleasures. Some things just aren't meant to be, free will or not. Humans will never fly unaided, coral will never evolve into a land-living form (since their inherent characteristics (like being unintegrated colonies and having no structures that could form a lung or whatever) kind of preclude it- genetic plasticity and all that), and Yoda had no chance to defeat Sidious and save the Jedi, through no fault of his own.


    Heck, Luke lost to Palpatine, and he's pretty much the big hero of the OT. He just couldn't win because he wasn't meant to win. Since he wasn't the Chosen One.
  14. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    Because the story should and could have been better.

    Yoda could have been a victim of circumstance, instead of the Jedi fall guy.

    From 1980 to 2000 - most fans thought Luke was getting primo lessons from a top-notch, awesome Master who was a flawless guru - just too old to fight.

    Without the PT, we really trust Kenobi's recommendation, and Yoda has no back-story that contradicts is unflappable image.

    Moreover, the story certainly does not revolve around Yoda. The first film '77 was beloved and there was no Dagobah wise man (that the PT later showed was a beaten bum, not so wise).


    Over-rated ...




    If Yoda had been presented as a flawless character, then I would be complaining about Lucas' writing skills. There is nothing more tedious and one-dimensional than a character with no flaws.
  15. BigBoy29 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2004
    star 3
    Well that is of course your opinion.

    Many young men and teenage boys kinda like the flawless hero - and let's remember the target age Lucas said the OT was directed at.

    That's why many fans liked OT Yoda so much - boys looked up to the character as the "flawless Master" - so much the term Yoda became part of the American lexicon.

    This is not news to anyone, so I'll close with my belief that PT Yoda - with all his faults and lessons and mistakes - is great for the adult crowd interested in seeing Star Wars characters that are sophisticated and steeped in personality.

    Boy, isn't great to see how much Yoda grew and wised up, and now the "Wars make not one great" is a sad lament and personal commentary?

    No. Better when Yoda said prophetical stuff and it was gold just because we were told and wanted to believe he was THE MAN.

  16. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    Just out of curiosity, now that he's no longer flawless, what are his flaws?

    Many of those stated here go along the line "he's not God"... [face_plain]
  17. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    The thing with Yoda-and by extension, the entire Jedi Order-was that they had to lose. Badly. Where even a win like Obi-Wan turning the Chosen One into a stumpy piece of barbeque doesn't matter at all. And inevitably when a movie chero loses, they are going to be doing things that seem outright stupid to us because of our omniscient viewpoint.

    It isn't that Yoda choked; it's that Sidious was simply too much. Let's just stop a moment and consider the situation Yoda and Obi-Wan find themselves in after Order 66: The galaxy is now an Empire ruled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history. All Jedi are considered to be enemies of the state and have a shoot-on-sight order on their heads; the entire galaxy thinks they just tried to take over the Republic. What good would killing Sidious even have done? The Jedi still would have remained enemies of the state, even more so after killing a beloved leader who just-from the public's POV-won the Clone Wars and saved the galaxy from those evil Jedi. At best, they'd have knocked off the head of state and the Empire would have fallen apart into greedy Senators squabbling over the remains. Not the goal Yoda and Obi-Wan want, which is the restoration of the Republic, which at this point, is a failed goal.The Republic is dead of it's own cannibalism.

    Killing Palpatine and Vader wasn't enough-there wasn't anything worth saving at this point. All they realistically could do was go into hiding and hope an opportunity presented itself later.




  18. BigBoy29 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2004
    star 3
    Really? My man, hope your being facetious.

    If not, let's start with Episode 1.

    Qui-Gon knows the kid is special (as do we). But Yoda is relegated to Ivory Tower 'stick in mud' that won't let the kid get on the bus.

    Let Windu & others make the faulty decision making - KEEP YODA'S REP IMPECCABLE SO HE IS MORE LIKE JINN - A JEDI UNSULLIED AND SMELLING LIKE A ROSE.


    Again, this is just the appetizer in the whole "How Yoda sucked in the PT".

    EDIT - Guys, I like Master Yoda. I had a Yoda nite-lite as a kid, my first figures was Yoda and Luke, etc. Just for perspective ....
  19. Dark--Helmet Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2003
    star 2
    The Jedi/Galaxy had to lose but it didn't make Sidious look like some incredible adversary.The way it was done just made the Jedi/Galaxy look inept and stupid.

    It was basically Sid vs a bunch of Spaceballs.[image=http://www.infowars.com/images/spaceballs.jpg]



  20. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2000
    star 6
    I just had a crazy idea:

    What if TPM played out almost exactly as written, with the following changes:

    -Yoda replaces Qui-Gon. The roguish characterization remains the same.
    -The political wranglings on Coruscant lead to the Jedi receiving explicit orders not to interfere with the blockade. Yoda defies these orders, sneaking onto the Queen's ship with Obi-Wan and Anakin.
    -The laser hallway holds Yoda back, while Obi-Wan races forward to fight Maul and ends up killing him.
    -Despite the victory, Yoda and Obi-Wan are in deep trouble with both the Senate and the Jedi Council (for aiding the Naboo and for failing to capture Maul alive). Yoda is forced into exile, leaving Anakin in Obi-Wan's hands.
  21. Slowburn Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2010
    star 4
    That really doesn't seem to be much of a plan. Even in the OT, Yoda is clearly loyal to the Jedi ways. He established his character early on as very wise and very pure. Making him into a rebel after his legend being established in the OT in a certain way would be destroying the character. I liked the way it was with Obi-Wan being somewhat defiant and an unnamed Master that is even more so. People get hung up on the whole "was I any different when you trained me?" line, but that was explained by Yoda kind of being the introductory master for all students.
  22. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2000
    star 6
    But that's exactly my point. The Jedi Order in the PT ISN'T particularly wise or pure. They're bureaucratic and short-sighted. Putting Yoda into the Qui-Gon role would maintain his OT character much better than the existing PT does.

  23. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    For this example it's also the case that Yoda was absolutely right. He eventually ended up having to save the bits and pieces that was left after Anakin and Palpatine got groove together. Might never have happened if they'd listened to the little green one. ;)

    This issue depends greatly on your own point of view. If you perceived Yoda as all-powerful and flawless in the OT, I guess you might complain, even though I agree with DRush76 that a Yoda without an arc would have been truly lazy writing. For my part, I didn't perceive Yoda as flawless in the OT, and certainly not the Jedi. Why? Because the movies told me.

    In ANH Obi-Wan talks about the Jedi as the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic, before the dark times, before the Empire. He's implying that the Jedi failed their mission. Then he talks about his own Jedi student that turned evil, more than implying that he himself failed and delivered one of the greatest villains to the galaxy.

    We later learn that Yoda was a mentor for Obi-Wan, which means that Yoda failed by extension and association. I always saw the OT Yoda as an old and wise mentor, and always thought that he probably got to this point through some terrible hardships.

    In other words I never saw him as a flawless character. He even fails to keep Luke on Dagobah, something which is nearly fatal for the future of the galaxy...
  24. BigBoy29 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2004
    star 3
    ^^^

    Well surely then, you must have your own ideas where Yoda has his flaws.
    Let's hear your laundry list.

    Hey I agree man, some guys want different things out of Master Yoda. And what you say about "perfect Yoda" really is the crux of this thread.

    I don't want flawless or perfect - just the wise master who is one step ahead of the game or at least on our page ...

    Example -

    We the audience, and Qui-Gon - know something about this special kid. So watching the Ivory Tower gang make their decision is like watching a horror movie where we want to scream out to the eventual victim about not going into the shower.

    People can argue whether Yoda and the Council's decision was "correct".

    But deep down fans really like Qui-Gon because he knows the deal, and wants to help the kid, not shut him out.

    I completely agree with JKH and others who assert that Yoda should have been in that role. The unsullied, father-figure role! Would have made the losing Vader angle really strong.

    After watching the PT and how Yoda was utilized - I almost feel Yoda on Dagobah should be wagging his cane around like a Granny, saying "I never liked the cut of his jib, I knew he was a troublemaker ..."

    EDIT -
  25. dewback_rancher Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2009
    star 4
    That is hardly a fair comparison. The Spaceballs are clearly inept. It's no trouble at all to outwit them because they're a bunch of morons.... actually, that may be a fair comparison, though not literally.

    See, Palpatine is such a master manipulator, he can make any group look like a bunch of Spaceballs. He's just that good. In fact, I have no doubt he could make us look like idiots, simply due to his uncanny ability to twist events so that no matter the outcome, he comes out on top.

    Take the Battle of Naboo- in the original plan, Palpy was going to use the sympathy of having his homeworld get him elected Supreme Chancellor (as seen in TPM), and would then use its continued occupation to gain sympathy to push his reforms.

    As it happened, in having his plans on Naboo stymied, Palpatine was able to accelerate his plans. The fallout made the Rise of the Empire far swifter than it would have been otherwise. He becomes a beloved figure, standing for the rights of the little guy, and no one sees the Sith hitting the fan.
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