Yoda Passing the Buck?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by MandaloreWarrior77, Jun 19, 2008.

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  1. MandaloreWarrior77 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2004
    Did Yoda ever blame Obi-wan or Qui-gon for what happened to the Jedi Order in ROTS? I couldn?t imagine Yoda constantly reminding Obi-wan that it was his fault for the years that they were in exile.
  2. rumsmuggler Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    Yoda admitted that it was his fault that the Jedi fell in the ROTS novel. He didn't allow the Jedi to grow and change with the times. Meanwhile the Sith reinvented themselves into a new and more dangerous form.
  3. _Sublime_Skywalker_ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2004
    star 4
    Agreed. Yoda blames himself, along with Sidious of course. Like RS said, Yoda did not let the Jedi order change and adapt, it stayed stale and the same throughout hundreds of years. Predictability is an advantage to your enemy.

    He never blamed Obi Wan or Qui Gon, cause they both did what they felt was right concerning Anakin.
  4. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    As has been said, Yoda recognizes that as leader of the Jedi he carries a part of the blame for their fall.
  5. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Yoda accepted the blame for utterly failing the Jedi Order.
    My best guess is that for the better part of 400+ years, 90% of the Jedi were trained at one time or another by Yoda, or by one of the Padawans he trained to Knighthood. If the sins of the father are passed on to the son, then what of the Master's flaws and what about those they trained? Mace was pompous enough to get himself killed, Yoda was wise enough to run and lived long enough to find another way. Fortunately, Luke didn't spend enough time with Yoda to learn all of the flawed, dogmatic doctrines that he adhered to. Luke trusted his feelings, I doubt Yoda could have ever taught him that. I loved OT Yoda, the cryptic mystical little elf. In my eyes, the way that the PT was written (and the EU that came with it) made Yoda responsible for their decimation. He comes across as a stodgy little Tridactyl... who was out of touch with the times, like most great-grandparents are with Rap and Hip Hop music today.

    The rapping Yoda easter egg is all the proof you'll ever need.[face_alien_1]
  6. MOC Yak Face Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2004
    star 4
    From what I observed, Yoda was pretty good at taking responsibility for the part he played. In some ways you can't blame him for sticking with what he knew. It had worked for however many centuries after all. The difference of course was the presence of a mobilising Sith and the Chosen One. The adaptation in approach needed wasn't taken up by the Jedi elders, and as their leader, Yoda has to take some responsibility for that and I think does. In the OT we see him bring his ancient wisdom to Luke but basically allow him to trust his feelings and do what he thinks is right. Maybe he'd learned his lesson by then. Maybe he was more prepared to change in light of the tragedy that occurred with Anakin and what Qui Gon was telling him from the afterlife. It seemed to work pretty well with the younger Skywalker.
  7. rumsmuggler Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    Yoda in the OT is on the right track.
  8. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    I competely agree; but after seeing the revisionist history that was the PT, Yoda's younger version couldn't find his way through a well-lit room.
  9. rumsmuggler Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
  10. _Sublime_Skywalker_ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2004
    star 4
    I wouldn't say that exactly, Yoda had his faults in the PT but he was still one of the best Masters in the order. His advice was a little harsh towards Anakin in ROTS, but if Anakin had learned to let go, he would've never really become Darth Vader seeing as Padme wouldn't have died and he wouldn't be so obsessed and power crazed.

    Yoda had good advice, he just needed to change it to fit Anakin. He knew he was an attatched being and very soft because of his late training.
  11. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    I'd hardly call: "train YOURSELF to blah, blah, blah..." good advice.
    But what do I know?
    :p

    Sometimes yoda acted like his head was:
    [image=http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z274/EyeBashBadWriting/wheres_your_head_at.jpg]
  12. _Sublime_Skywalker_ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2004
    star 4
    Anakin wasn't a baby anymore- he got close to 12 years of free training. When he accepted the rank of Knight, he accepted that somethings he'd have to teach and learn himself.

    I think it just shows the jedi's arrogance a little more in the PT- the face Obi Wan does when he learns he'll be training again on Tatooine. "Training?" and he looks like "Oh ****, not again."
  13. xx_Anakin_xx Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2008
    star 4
    Yoda passed the buck constantly. I would say he was the number one pass the bucker in the series.

    He blamed his lack of vision on cloudiness due to the dark side instead of the Jedi overcoming it.
    He blamed lack of humble Jedi on their own arrogance instead of his (and other master's) teaching.
    He blamed Sidious and Vader for the mess the GFFA was in, yet they were two and he started out as a member of 1000's.
    He sent Obi-Wan after Anakin figuring he'd be the one who could beat Sidious, instead of going with Obi-Wan to defeat Vader and then both going for Sidious - no reason given, but was time truly of the essence at that point? I think not. So seems to me he just didn't want to confront Anakin.
    He with the council set Anakin up to spy instead of attempting to strengthen the Jedi so a spy would not be needed.
    He sent masters after Sith and kicked back on his stool.
    He sent Luke after Vader when he'd not even attempted to take him on.
    He died and passed the buck to Obi-Wan to counsel Luke rather than returning as a Force Ghost to give better advice

    Worst of all, he spoke in cryptic language which nobody could make out, thus leaving everything up to them to decide as they pretended to understand him.
  14. Arawn_Fenn Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I think the word you're looking for is "buck-passer".:p
  15. SHAD0W-JEDI Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 3

    My two word response? PUH and LEEEZ....

    I know, I know, the Jedi got stale, the Jedi got arrogant, the Jedi got corrupt, blah blah blah. I mean, Yoda even hints at this right in AOTC!

    Except...

    GL really neglected to DEMONSTRATE this in the movies.

    We have had this argument/discussion across many, many Threads - how much culpability do the Jedi have for the rise of Sidious ... but aside from the inarguable fact that they are unable to DETECT Sidious, what, exactly and specifically, do the Jedi DO in the Prequels, that demonstrates any of these alleged shortcomings? Keep in mind - being occasionally fallible is not the same as demonstrating moral failings, although GL kinda tries to blur that distinction. Sems odd to me that when future generations watch the movies, they are going to be mightily tempted to think the Jedi were disturbingly prescient when they had reservations about training Anakin.

    Yoda and ObiWan are both generous in the amount of blame they take on themselves - as good people often are. But attempts to scapegoat them or "blame" them, are, for me, simply tiresome and silly. With all due respect.

    Shadow
  16. MOC Yak Face Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2004
    star 4
    The Jedi, and Yoda as their leader, were saying some good things through the PT. They were just missing part of the picture, which meant that their perspective was out of balance. If you're out of balance long enough, you'll fall over.
  17. Darthbane2007 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2007
    star 4
    Worse yet, He, nor Anakin appeared after ROTJ to give Luke advice on how to run the Jedi Order.
  18. Sidious69 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2004
    star 3
    Yoda doesn't blame anyone. He knows nothing happens by accident. It was the will of the Force.


    He realizes at the end that Sidious was very powerful to defeat and he had lost even before his duel with him. (from ROTS novel)


    Wether he listened to Obi-Wan in making Anakin a Jedi or not. The Jedi would still have lost.

    If the Jedi did not train Anakin, then in all probablity, Palpatine would have by the end of Episode 1. And the fall of the Jedi would have ended by the end of Episode 2.


    The Chosen One was the only threat to Sidious.

    That is why the Jedi was right in training him and taking in him.

    Unfortunately for them, the Dark Lord of the Sith they were facing was not only the most powerful master of the darkside but also a master manipulator who was among them as the leader of the senate they were serving.
  19. EmeraldBlade Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2008
    star 2
  20. rumsmuggler Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    I love how Obi Wan thinks sometimes, I remember in one of the novels, he was thinking if that if Anakin was never discovered by the Jedi, he would have been one of the greatest podracers ever, would have won his and his mothers freedom and still would have still been one of the most talented pilots, even if he was never formally trained by any of the gffa's force traditions.
  21. EmeraldBlade Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2008
    star 2
    Anakin thinks that too.

    I am sure it was in LOE.
  22. _Sublime_Skywalker_ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2004
    star 4
    I'm pretty sure it was in Outbound flight.

    Like Sidious69 said; If Anakin wasn't trained by the Jedi, Sidious would've got to him first. Then they'd really be SOL. Atleast with the roots of a Jedi and the normal life of a child, as well as the love of his son he was able to be redeemed.

    If he was left on Tatooine, He'd never see Padme again. Sidious would get to him, he'd be fully consumed by hate by the age of 20 and he'd be forever lost. No little Luke to redeem him.
  23. BigBoy29 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2004
    star 3
    xx_Anakin_xx & SSSlayer have the good insight on this topic.

    They both got down to brass tacks on Master Yoda -

    We should be done here.
  24. PMT99 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Anakin has already been corrupted by the Dark Side long before he was given the rank of Jedi Knight so he still needed some help but Yoda wasn't providing him with any. Yoda tells Anakin to let go of his fear of loss but he wouldn't take his own advice because Yoda allowed his fear of Anakin's future to push him away into the welcoming arms of the Sith. If Yoda had just ignored Anakin's future and replace Obi-wan as Anakin's trainer, than Anakin would've learned to control his emotions and disciplined his mind so that PalpSidious wouldn't succeed in manipulating Anakin into thinking that "the Jedi are evil".
  25. NelanisGhost Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2006
    star 4
    The Jedi serve the Senate. The Senate was allowed to be a bunch of lazy unproductive bribe taking cowards (hmmm.... sounds sooo familiar, somehow...........). Only Padme and Mon Mothma and Bail and a handful of others took the job seriously, and didn't see it as a vehicle to party or get money, or wheel and deal.

    At that point, the Jedi should have beat a hasty retreat and told the government it was on it's own til they did their share. Why serve others that refuse to do their sworn duty. Why try so hard?? To please whom?
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