Yoda Should Have Fought to the Death

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Obironsolo, Oct 28, 2007.

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  1. Obironsolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2005
    star 1
    Why does Yoda flee in his fight with Sidious? Given the sacrifices made by Qui Gon and Obi Wan (Qui Gon in Ep 1, Obi Wan in Ep 4), along with the way Mace Windu handled himself, shouldn't Yoda have tried to take out the Emperor, even if it cost him his own life? It's not like he ever went back to try and finish the job. Killing Palapatine then and there would have saved twenty years of an Imperial dictatorship.

    In the pecking order of greatest Jedis, Yoda belongs beneath Qui Gon, Obi Wan, Mace, and Luke. He was great, but all of those Jedis were more committed to the ultimate cause.

    I suggest the Prequel Trilogy has very much diminished Yoda's overall contribution to the big picture.

    In fact, his only truly great moment was when he came to rescue the Jedis at Geonosis.

    His attitude towards Anakin in Ep I was terrible and created distance between Annie and the Council, his attempt to solve the Sith mystery never amounted to anything, and his advice to Anakin in Ep III was awful and partially led to his downfall. And then in the end, he flees in his fight with Sidious, and then he goes into hiding for twenty years.

    Is this really the Yoda I grew up with?

    By the way, this is not an anti-prequels stance in any sense. I love the Prequels and respect them as equals to the OT. This is simply an observation.
  2. MrZAP Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 5
    I think that Yoda really had no choice but to flee the Senate Chamber. I think he would gladly have given his life to kill Palpatine, but I think he realized that it was better to bide his time and prepare for the growth of the twins. He knew he had to be there for Obi-wan, and I think he already sensed Qui-gon's presence. In essence, he knew there was more he could do before taking out Palpatine.
  3. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    Yoda realized that as one of two remaining Jedi he could contribute more by fleeing as well as that violence wouldn't destroy the Sith.
  4. SithMaster_69 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2007
    star 2
    There would have been no purpose in his dying. Though it can be argued that bc Palps lived, he was able to rescue Anakin on Mustafar. I don't think anyone else would have sensed that Anakin was in trouble there. Unless Anakin would have survived long enough somehow to get help. who knows?

    Besides, I think he realized it was not the will of the Force.He was just not able to stop Palps. Palps was stronger than he thought. So, he chose to disengage. Know when you can fight & when you can't.

    & how can we be so sure someone else wouldn't have just stepped in to fill Palps' shoes? He had cronies ya know.

    As for his attitude towards Anakin, it wasn't aweful. He sensed the danger that anakin posed. Yet, he reluctantly allowed OB1 to train him. His advice to Ankin in EP. 3 was correct according to Jedi teachings. Thats the rules & philosophy of the club:don't like it, there's the exit. & he was very tragically right about Anakin.

    Yoda is not the only one that missed the Sith threat b4 it became too late. Blame for that can be spread evenly around.

    Yoda did successfully lead the forces @ Kashyyk(& in other places if we bring in the EU).
  5. grimlockbedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2006
    star 2
    If not to the death, at least a little harder before completely turning tail and running into exile.

    "Destroy the Sith, we must!"

    More like:

    "Destroy the Sith, we must! Unless it seems like I might be losing for a few minutes, and in that case, I'm outta here!"

  6. SithMaster_69 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2007
    star 2
    Yoda fought VERY hard. I doubt its easy to deflect Force Lightning with your bare hands.


  7. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    And according to the novel, it cost Yoda a lot of his strength.
  8. JarJarPlagueis Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 24, 2005
    star 1
    He had no choice to run, because if he came back and killed Palpatine (and everyone, including Palpatine, thought Yoda would defeat him), then how do you explain ESB and ROTJ??? It wouldn't make sense, would it??? [face_dancing]

    In all seriousness, I agree with you. Yoda ran way too soon. If it was up to me, I would have had a truly grand drama, with Yoda using the Force to crush star destroyers and bringing the crashed ships down onto the Senate building. In the meantime, Palapatine would deflect them to other buildings, later claiming that the "evil Jedi" were trying to destroy the capitol! Finally so many bombs and ships would reign down on them that they would both fall. Then Chewbacca, leading the Wookie army, would rescue a basically-dead Yoda, who would have to use all his remaining strength in the Force to keep himself alive and hide his presence from the Empire. Palpatine, meanwhile, would be rescued by his clone troops, but he'd be so weak that he too would have to use most of his Force concentration to maintain himself. Only after this fight would the two of them walk with canes. That's how I would have done it.
  9. grimlockbedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2006
    star 2
    I didn't mean fight harder in the actual duel...I meant fight harder as it relates to the overall big picture...he made his big proclamtion about destryoying the sith...went off and had one duel with Palpatine that didn't go his way...and immediately went into exile...that is a very abrupt turnaround...basically amounted to immediate surrender...
  10. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    It's why I like his revelation in the RotS novel as it explains Yoda's decision to go into hermitage as basically being that he realizes he wasn't the one to destroy the Sith and that no Force Power or Lightsaber would be the cause of their destruction.
  11. SithMaster_69 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2007
    star 2
    But even if not that, What then was Yoda to do? How was he to fight?

    Now admittedly, he could have secretly led the Rebellion as an "secret advisor". In the shadows like Palps was with the Seps. However, he is very well known & outside of them, he'd be in inredible danger.

    But, Yoda did do something very damaging to the emperor...he trained Luke who was able to turn his father back & by doing so,destroyed Palpatine.
  12. DarthArachnid Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2004
    star 1
    But it was Luke's decision to not kill Vader that led to the destruction of Palpatine. Yoda adviced Luke to fight and destroy Vader. So you can't really contribute that to Yoda.

    Maybe if Yoda said something like; Try and persuade your father to come back to the light, but he didn't. Yoda didn't have any hope for Anakin to come back to the light side.
  13. RamRed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4
    But, Yoda did do something very damaging to the emperor...he trained Luke who was able to turn his father back & by doing so,destroyed Palpatine.

    I don't think that Yoda's training of Luke had led to Palpatine's destruction.
  14. Darth_Davi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2005
    star 4
    But, then it was still Yoda that trained Luke, so that Luke was in a position where he could choose to not kill Vader. Regardless, Luke would never have been able to even fight the Sith had it not been for Yoda's decision to flee from the fight with Sidious. If Yoda dies in ROTS, there is nobody to train Luke to be a Jedi after ANH, and without any Jedi, who defeats Vader and Palpatine? Luke received what, a few hours training at best under Obi-Wan Kenobi on their way from Tatooine to Alderaan?

    Yoda's decision in ROTS paved the way for the eventual destruction of the Sith. The Sith waited far longer than Yoda does in their quest to destroy the Jedi, you can't begrudge Yoda a paltry 20 some odd years...
  15. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    Uh, yeah it did. If Yoda had never trained Luke he'd have remained a Rebel commander and Vader would have turned him into an agent of evil.
  16. SithMaster_69 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2007
    star 2
    True, he wanted Luke to defeat Vader 7 the Emperor. Also True that it was Luke's decision to redeem his pop. No arguement ther.

    But Yoda did train Luke in the Jedi arts. If not for that do you honestly think he would have stood a chane against Vader & Palps? No.
  17. SithMaster_69 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2007
    star 2
    It played a part. Again, if Luke hadn't recieved training from Yoda, do you think he would have stood a chance against Vader & Palps? & I'm not talking about lightsaber training either.
  18. Darth_Davi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2005
    star 4
    Right. Without his Jedi training making him mentally strong, Luke doesn't have a chance. Lets backtrack a little...

    Palpatine is killed.
    Q:Why?
    A:Because Anakin Skywalker put the love of his son over his master.
    Q:Why?
    A:Because Luke insisted that there was still good in him.
    Q:Why?
    A:Because Luke refused to accept that killing his father was his only choice.
    Q:Why was Luke even there?
    A:Because he turned himself in so he could talk with his father again.
    Q:How does Luke know Vader is his father?
    A:Because Vader told him on Cloud City.
    Q:Why was Vader on Cloud City?
    A:To set a trap for Luke.
    Q:Why was Luke on Cloud City?
    A:Because he had a vision of Han and Leia in pain.
    Q:How could Luke have a vision?
    A:Because he was strong enough and trained well enough in the Force.
    Q:But how could Vader know Luke would show up?
    A:Because Luke was strong enough and trained well enough in the Force for Vader to sense him.
    Q:How did Luke get to the point where he was strong enough in the Force?
    A:He was trained by Yoda.
    Q:Why?
    A:Because over 20 years previously, Yoda engaged in a lightsaber duel with Darth Vader's master, and rather than allow himself to die, he fled so that the Jedi Order could survive. The Emperor had eliminated virtually all of the Jedi Knights, and to the best of Yoda's knowledge, only he and Obi-Wan Kenobi survived. Not knowing the fate of Obi-Wan, Yoda fled, because he didn't know if he was the last surviving Jedi or not, and felt it wiser to hide until the time was right to make his move against the Sith. After fleeing with the help of Bail Organa, Yoda meets up with Obi-Wan Kenobi, is present for the birth of Luke and Leia, and they form a plan, to divide the children of Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader up to help conceal them from the Emperor, so that one day they might be trained as Jedi, defeat the Empire, and try to restore the Jedi Order.

    None of that happens if Yoda is killed.
  19. SithMaster_69 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2007
    star 2
    Exactly.
  20. star_galaxy Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2007
    i disagree with the original statement,

    Yoda did the right thing.

    :)
  21. Darth_Davi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2005
    star 4
    Yoda acted like a true Jedi Master. He put the Will of the Force ahead of his own desire to eliminate the Sith. If Yoda had only had to be concerned with his own survival, and not that of the entire Jedi Order, perhaps he would have fought to the death, winner take all. But Yoda was playing for bigger stakes than his own life.
  22. AnakinBrego Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2004
    star 3
    There's no where in the movie where it's implied that Yoda fled for all the reasons you are all giving, the movie isn't that clear. He left and that doesn't make sense since Obi-Wan and Yoda's intent was to destroy the Sith. Yoda just gets up and leaves for no reason what so ever. Anything else is reading into something that insn't there, and isn't implied. It's not explained, the movie should of done that itself, instead of all this I know and you don't chatter. The film should of been more self explanatory. In my opinion George made a boo boo in storytelling.

    Maybe a way to fix the scene is to have Yoda grab his side, that he injured himself on the fall, when he hit one of the fallen pods. another would be that he fled because he heard clones coming.
  23. SithMaster_69 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2007
    star 2
    Ok....

    First: We're not saying We know & you don't.

    Second: If you want to talk movies...ok. Look at the fight. Yoda was fighting as hard as he could. he absorbed & relefcted Sith lightning...with his bare hands. And still Palps was digging deeper & bringin it on. I think his force lightning attack was more intense than that he used against Windu..certainly longer. Yoda knew he wasn't going to win a force v Force battle with Palps. He admitted as such. He said he failed. So at some point he knew he wasn't going to win.

    So, he had no choice. What gurantee do you have that he could have beaten Palps? From looking @ it, Palps was still bringin it. When they were parted & Yoda fell, he used the opportunity to withdraw. Thats not retreating...thats being smart. Know when you can fight & when you cannot. Yoda knew he wasn't going to win & had no choice.

    Third: If you want a physical reason, then you do see it. That fight had to have taken a lot out him. He went a long time against Palps. I doubt if anyone could have done better. Mace included. Yeah I know..Blah ...blah...Palps was faking. He unleashed a serious barrage against Mace once Anakin made his choice. Weak my ****. But thats for another thread.

    Fourth: I'm sorry but you cannot set aside the OT: What good would it have done if he died fighting Palps?


  24. grimlockbedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2006
    star 2
    Anything. He could have tried anything.

    As one of the only extremely powerful counter-forces to Sidious, Yoda, by choosing to not resist him, became a passive participant in his success.
  25. Obironsolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2005
    star 1
    Let's remember that in the OT, the plan involved first taking down Vader, and then trying to take down the Emperor. Luke was being trained to accomplish both of those things. Why?

    They should have stopped Hitler at Munich, and they should have stopped Palpatine at Order 66 and the Imperial rebellion.

    Because Yoda and Obi Wan left the situation to linger for 20 years, millions or billions of innocent people died, on Alderaan alone.

    If Yoda couldn't take down Palpatine in that fight, he should have got back together with Obi Wan, and the two of them should have gone back to face him together.

    Why would Yoda or Obi Wan think that a young Luke would be more able to defeat Emperor and Vader in the OT than they would in the PT? Knowing what we know about Luke's abilities, this makes no sense. And you can't say that Yoda or Obi Wan knew that Luke was going to reach Anakin's soul and change him back to the good side, because it's explicitly said in the OT that neither of them believe that is possible.

    For that matter, why didn't Yoda go with Luke to fight Vader and the Emperor? It was only 20 years later, Yoda couldn't have lost that much ability. Wouldn't that have helped the galaxy's chances against the Sith?

    Yoda kind of acts like a pussy.

    There are no good reasons given as to why he goes into hiding, other than the fact that he is afraid of being killed. He should have gotten together with Obi Wan, and they should have gone up against Vader and Palpatine.


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