Yoda Should Have Fought to the Death

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Obironsolo, Oct 28, 2007.

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  1. Darth_Davi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2005
    star 4
    Fixed. Yoda fleeing allowed Palpatine to win, for a while. But Yoda lived to train the son of the Chosen One, the one who, after his father dies as the result of the injuries sustained killing the Emperor, has the entire fate of the Jedi Order on his shoulders. It is because of Yoda's training that Luke Skywalker is THE Jedi Master in the EU. Yoda lost the battle, but his decision to retreat ultimately leads to the Jedi winning the war.

    Ummm, says who? Whose plan? Luke didn't turn himself in on Endor to defeat the Emperor. He turned himself in to get another meeting with Vader, in order to try to convince him to return to the light. The attack on the Death Star was supposed to kill Palpatine, that wasn't Luke's job. Luke acted on his own, apart from the plan, to try to redeem his father. In fact, you might argue that Luke actually endangered the plan by doing that. Yoda wanted Luke to kill both, but, Luke didn't exactly follow Yoda's plan, did he? He found a 3rd option, and went with it.

    Given Yoda's defeat at the hands of Palpatine, it seems that the only Force user who could conceivably be strong enough to do the job was Anakin's proginy, Luke or Leia. Since they were infants, they had to wait. Even then, Luke didn't defeat the Sith like Yoda wanted, Anakin finally lived up to his destiny...albeit with Luke's help. Whiiiiiiiich never would have happened, had Yoda died.


    They couldn't. First, after Yoda's attack, I am sure that Palpatine fortified the defenses, specifically against Jedi threats. Second, he had the entire Senate believing the Jedi were traitors, Yoda and Obi-Wan got outmaneuvered politically. They couldn't engage in open battle with Palpatine once he proclaims himself Emperor.


    Might have something to do with Luke's midichlorian count. He is the son of the Chosen One, after all. If Anakin was conceived by the Force, Luke and Leia are 1/4 Force babies themselves. Given how strong Luke becomes in only a few short months on Dagobah, I think they had good reason to suspect he would be a fast learner. They didn't expect him to redeem Anakin, but if anyone was going to be strong enough to defeat Vader or Palpatine, it would be Vader's own son or daughter. Luke got the Jedi training because Leia was busy running the political side of the Rebellion. But, if anybody could ever be strong enough in the Force to defeat Darth Vader or Palpatine, it would be either Luke or Leia. They wanted Luke to kill, because they didn't think it was possible for Anakin to be redeemed. Luke proved them wrong, which only adds to Luke being the perfect choice.


  2. Jedi-knight-25 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2007
    star 2
    Yoda probably thought it was best to escape because Yoda probably thought that there would be another time to defeat the Sith.
  3. Obironsolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2005
    star 1

    If you don't believe that there were valid reasons for him and Obi-Wan to go into hiding, you haven't looked hard enough.[/quote]

    I've looked harder than you. How's that for a stupid response to a stupid response? I've stated my argument as well as you have.

    In order for what you're saying to be true, Obi Wan has to die on the Death Star, which Yoda did not foresee, as far as we know. Only then is Yoda needed to complete Luke's training. In fact, it's questionable whether Yoda even wanted to train Luke. If we take everything on its face, Obi Wan and Luke had to convince Yoda to do that. To make the argument that Yoda fled to Dagobah to wait there in order to train Luke, that is totally revisionist. Obi Wan was going to train Luke, and once he died, Yoda wouldn't even commit. And then, when Luke leaves for Cloud City, Yoda reacts angry, saying things are worse now. You can't credit Yoda as the architect of the victory of the Empire. Obi Wan was clearly the guy behind the guy, not Yoda. Yes, Yoda helped Luke, but this had nothing to do with his decision to flee in his fight with Palpatine.



  4. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    Obi-Wan would have gotten slaughtered like the "Jedi Posse" if he went up against Palpatine. I still think the best official explination is the one from the RotS novel where Yoda realizes that no lightsaber or Force power would destroy the Sith, but I can see how you'd have problems with that.
  5. DBrennan3333 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2004
    star 4
    Well, yeah, but....he's just so cute!!!
  6. AnakinBrego Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2004
    star 3
    There's no where in my post says you don't.
    The adage is, "You don't know until you try."
    Yoda's supposed to lose the fight, but I would of actually like to have seen Yoda losing the fight and reatreating instead of retreating for no reason, maybe Pals injuring him like I stated above. Palpatine and Yoda were on equal ground, they both were unarmed and both were thrown from the force lightening, Yoda at that point could of still fought, I'm sure Palpatine would of jumped down there to fight. Yoda could have jumped up onto pods to reach Palpatine.
  7. Darth_Davi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2005
    star 4
    No, Obi-Wan didn't necessarily have to die. I was explaining that Yoda's decision to flee turned out to be the correct decision. That is completely independent of whether or not Kenobi survives. In fact, had Kenobi not died, it would have been easier for Luke to get trained. Two Jedi Masters instructing you is better than one. Yoda was forced into training Luke by himself because of Kenobi's death, but, had he fought Sidious to the death and lost, there is nobody to train Luke after ANH. In Yoda's mind, and Kenobi's, I am sure, both thinking that the two of them were the last surviving Jedi, they knew their survival was temporarily more important than putting an immediate end to Sidious's rule. I also didn't say that Yoda planned it out to happen the way it did...I merely said that he listened to the Will of the Force, rather than his own desires. And lo and behold, what happens? It takes 23 additional years, but, the Emperor is defeated. I never stated that Yoda went to Dagobah specifically to wait for Luke. My reverse chain of events showed what did happen, not to show that Yoda was omnipotent. I wasn't saying Yoda knew 23 years in advance exactly how it was going to go down, I was saying that his decision to did ultimately accomplish his goal, as it allowed the chain of events that did bring the Empire down. Nowhere did I say that Yoda controlled it, just that it ended up working out for him.

    I have never said Yoda was completely responsible, that he controlled everything that happens, merely that in the long run, his decision to flee turned out to be correct one, as that decision allowed for events to transpire that did lead to the Empire's downfall. Hindsight is 20/20. Why was Yoda upset when Luke left? Oh Yeah...because he didn't think Luke was ready to face Vader yet. Not that he wouldn't be, but at that time, he wasn't. It would be like starting a rookie pitcher who has never pitched in the Major Leagues before in Game 7 of the World Series.

    When didn't Yoda commit? Did you not realize that when he first harasses Luke, he was merely testing him? Giving him his first lessons, without him even realizing? OF COURSE Yoda fully intended to train Luke all along, as the only surviving Jedi, if he doesn't do it, nobody can...I cannot say exactly what their plan would have been had Kenobi survived, perhaps they would have had Kenobi train him to a point, then have him go to finish his training with Yoda, I dunno. But, when Kenobi dies, Yoda has no choice but to train Luke. When Luke arrives at Dagobah, Yoda is just measuring him up, that's all. Muttering "Too old...yes too old to begin the training" wasn't spoken completely to Obi-Wan. He knew Luke was in earshot, and wanted to gauge his reaction. The result? Luke gets his first lesson about Jedis having patience. Yoda was playing Luke. Having some fun with him in his old age. Under no circumstances was Yoda going to refuse to train Luke, and if you believe otherwise, I have a bridge in the San Francisco Bay I would like to sell you.

    I would also like to know your reasoning for stating that Obi-Wan was the architect of the Empire's destruction...because he died by Vader's hands? You would cred
  8. grimlockbedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2006
    star 2
    Hey dude if you are going to quote me do me a favor and don't modify my quote. I totally get what you are doing and completely understand that you were trying to make a point (which is all good), but now it looks like I said something different then what I said, and if it gets re-quoted etc etc. No worries, but you know what I mean?
  9. SithMaster_69 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2007
    star 2
    Yoda tried .....& failed.

    & no, they weren't on equal ground. The Emperor was a bit stronger in the Force. Remember his warning to Luke.

    & if he kep on fighting then what? Nothing. He would have probably been killed, then what of the future of the Order? He didn't know that there may have been other survivors of what was happening with OB1.

    What would his death have proven? Especially if Palps had lived?
  10. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Just because Anakin didn't want to hear it doesn't mean it was awful or led to his downfall.
  11. Obironsolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2005
    star 1
    I don't think you are right about Yoda only testing Luke when it comes to his training him. Was he testing him? Yes. But was he definitely going to train him, no question about it? No. After Luke leaves Dagobah, Yoda says to Obi Wan..."Told you, I did. Now matters are worse." To me, that means that he really didn't want to train Luke, but that he was convinced by Obi Wan and Luke to do so. What do you think he meant by that line? And by the way, do you also think Yoda and Mace Windu were testing Anakin when they didn't want to train him in the Phantom Menace?

    Also, when you say that Yoda realized that waiting 23 years to train Luke was more important than defeating Sidious, I don't get that. The whole point of training Luke was the hope that he could somehow defeat Sidious. Defeating Sidious was the whole point of everything. That was the end game. Whatever could accomplish that most effectively and most quickly should have been the plan. At least go with Luke to help!

    The argument that Yoda had no plan, I don't get that either. He just listened to the force, and that in the end, it all worked out, so that makes him right? Not really, IMO. Clearly, if you look at the big picture, Yoda was totally unable to stop anything from happening, and in the end, Luke chose a more Qui Gon type of approach, and it worked.

    Also, I believe Yoda's advice to Anakin in EP III was terrible. To tell someone in love that they should let go of the person they're in love with is not good advice. We can just disagree on that I guess.
  12. AnakinBrego Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2004
    star 3
    No actually Yoda tried and gave up! He didn't at all seam overwelmed or outmatched.
    I'm all for Yoda losing the battle, but a more convincing defeat was needed to sell it all!
  13. SithMaster_69 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2007
    star 2
    Yoda was definately out matched 7 overwhelemed. He did not as you say give up. He recognized that he wouldn't be able to win, so he did the best thing he could do...withdraw.

    & if he did fight to what would have been more than likely his death, what then?
  14. DrMRMcKay Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2007
    In my humble opinion:
    Yoda came to an understanding, he wasn't equiped for this battle. If you think about it, he was the last remaining Jedi who would have had any contact with a Jedi who had previously erncountered the Sith (1000 years ago). He spent his time training Jedi to fight this battle again should it happen. But the Sith evolved, the only ones who had any luck against a Sith were the ones who were a little dark side.

    Obi Wan faced Maul and didn't really cause him to squirm, until Obi cracked it and got angry, he overpowered Maul, however he came but came back to the light just as he lost control. (interesting here when you look at the parallel with Luke v Vader in ROTJ, Maul was able to draw Obi's rage and turn it on him, Vader was beaten convincingly by Lukes rage and had no answer - This indicates to me with almost certainty that Vaders feelings were no longer as clear as they needed to be, the conflict was well and truly underway).

    The only Jedi who ever faced Palpatine and could have won would be Mace as he had his own demions to face (notice how he not only deflected the lightning but was able to redirect it with very little impact to himself - the man was "grey side" if I may insert that ambiguous annoying little term.) Due to the timely appearance of Anakin we lost the opportunity. (I am not saying Palpy didn't throw the end of that fight a little so he looked like the innocent victim when Anakin came through the door, but I think the end was coming anyway. If only Anakin had gone with them, they could have ended it then and there.

    I am very tired so sorry if this is set out a little random.
  15. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    By leaving and not fighting to the death, he survived long enough to pass on the torch to Luke.

    Let's not forget: YODA WON.

    Luke redeems Yoda and Obi-wan just as he redeems Anakin.
  16. VooDooQueen Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2007
    I would have loved to have seen a more "grand" and "dramatic" confrontation between Yoda and Sidious than what we saw. However I don't think that Yoda should have been the one to have killed him since the prophecy deemed another to do that ( Skywalker ). It would have been great though to have seen Yoda and Palp almost destroy one another to explain 20 years of laying low. I do believe that Yoda/Sidious are equal in their power of the force.
  17. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    To quote Qui-Gon, "Your focus determines your reality."

    Yoda may have been right about Anakin but he made it right by not taking his own advice (the same one he gave Anakin) and not training Anakin himself. Yoda was so focused on Anakin's future, that he distanced himself and the Council away leaving Obi-wan to do all the dirty work and regardless if Obi-wan wanted to fulfill Qui-Gon's dying wish, Yoda should not have allowed an inexperienced Jedi fresh from given the rank of Jedi Knight to have an apprentice as unorthodox as Anakin because they are mismatched and there is already a dissension between them. Obi-wan was not ready to take on an apprentice so soon and that enabled PalpSidious to undermind his authority so he could twist Anakin's mind into thinking that the Jedi are his enemies.

    Anakin's psyche could've been saved has Yoda been his trainer instead of Obi-wan.
  18. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    Exactly.
  19. JediPadawan007 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2007
    star 1
    Yoda had no choice but to flee.

    He had just fallen a long way
    He had reached the limits of his strength (novel)
    Palpatine was howling like a mad man obviously he had a lot left in the tank
    Palpatine had reinforcements on route
    Yoda had already come to the conclusion that it was indeed down to the chosen one to rid the galaxy of the sith, not him.

    So basically Yoda was fighting a losing battle against a stronger opponent from the start.
  20. Obironsolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2005
    star 1
    The idea that Yoda fled because he felt it was the Chosen One's job to kill Palpatine is completely ridiculous.

    1) Anakin had already gone bad, and Yoda had already deemed him irretrievable. He never foresaw him turning back.
    2) Yoda had already stated that he felt the prophecy was misread.
    3) 23 years later, Yoda still felt Vader was an agent of evil, who he wanted Luke to kill. No one, not even Luke, foresaw that Vader would turn on Palpatine. If there's evidence, let's see it.

    So, this said, even if Yoda felt he was outmatched, he should have come back with Kenobi. No other scenario he could possibly foresee, including both a fully trained Luke and Leia fighting together, could ever give them as good odds as he and Kenobi would have had.

    The fact that Vader did what he did in the end was despite most of the things Yoda had set in motion. Not because of it.

    Yoda's cowardice eventually led him to send a young, almost totally inexperienced Luke to face both Vader and the Emperor.

    In fact, let's pose this question...

    Why didn't Yoda throw down his weapon like Luke? Luke could have fled. He could have made a mad dash for it like Yoda did. Who knows? He may have escaped.

    The consequences of Luke fleeing at that moment would not have been any worse than the consequences of Yoda fleeing in ROTS. Yes, the Death Star II would have probably destroyed the entire fleet, and perhaps all of the rebels on Endor would have been killed, including Han and Leia. But would that have been worse than the twenty years of Dark Times between III and IV? The destruction of Alderaan itself covers the numbers. I say they are equivalent.




  21. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    The difference is that Yoda saw the Force's will wasn't for the Sith to be killed through physical violence. Whether or not he still believed it was the case in the Original Trilogy is debateable but during their duel Yoda had a moment of clarity. It's only in the RotS novel, but that's the only time we get into Yoda's head during the duel so it's worth considering. Regardless it does amount to Yoda leaving because he realized that he couldn't beat the Emperor whether it's because he was weaker than him, realized that the Prophecy was true(which doesn't necessarily contradict with his belief that Anakin was dead), or he realized the Clonetroopers were coming(I think the weakest of the 3 arguments.)

    Yoda's belief that Anakin is dead is one that is never explicitly stated. The closest the grandmaster gets to saying that after his realization in the Senate is when he says "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice." It's worth noting that Yoda at the end of RotS is a very different 'man' than he is at the beginning. He has been humbled in the face of the Sith's victory to such an extent that he becomes Qui-Gon's apprentice. It's not inconceivable that he would change during his exile just as Ben did. The only one of them who explicitly calls upon Luke to kill Vader and his master is Ben Kenobi, with Yoda primarily sticking to less direct terms such as conquer and confront.

    However, even if Yoda believed Anakin was dead that doesn't mean he can't believe the Chosen One destroyed the Sith. He was willing to believe it to be misread earlier, there's no reason to assume he didn't believe that the Chosen One wasn't in fact one of the children that Anakin sired given that in his and Ben's eyes the only hope for the Jedi is one of the two Skywalker children.
  22. RamRed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4

    Luke's intial meeting with Obi-Wan led to all of that, as far as I know.

    But . . . despite all that Yoda had taught him, I think that Luke's own decision to follow his own voice - and not that of Yoda or Obi-Wan - had led to Palpatine's destruction.
  23. Obironsolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2005
    star 1
    "The difference is that Yoda saw the Force's will wasn't for the Sith to be killed through physical violence."

    Actually, the Sith were killed through physical violence. Darth Vader grabbed the Emperor and tossed him over a bottomless shaft. All of this was brought on by a lightsaber duel in which Vader had his hand chopped off. There was quite a bit of violence that went into destroying the Sith.

    "However, even if Yoda believed Anakin was dead that doesn't mean he can't believe the Chosen One destroyed the Sith. He was willing to believe it to be misread earlier, there's no reason to assume he didn't believe that the Chosen One wasn't in fact one of the children that Anakin sired given that in his and Ben's eyes the only hope for the Jedi is one of the two Skywalker children."

    You're saying Yoda thought the Chosen One was Luke or Leia, and this went into his decision to flee to Dagobah? I've never heard that theory before. First of all, when Yoda tells Bail Organa that he must go into exile, that was before Padme gave birth. So for one, Yoda didn't even know there were twins. No one knew yet. In fact, as far as I can remember, we don't even know if Yoda knew Padme was pregnant at that point. We can assume Obi Wan told him, but it's certainly not a fact. Even if he did know, at the time of Yoda's declaration that he would go into exile, he was still hoping that Obi Wan would kill Anakin on Mustafar. Yoda didn't even know the outcome of that fight yet. In my opinion, to think that Yoda was already putting his hopes on Luke, before he was even born, that is a HUGE stretch!!!

  24. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    Ben's initial meeting with Luke started Luke down that path but as is shown in the cave, Luke still had a good deal of self-control to learn before he could resist the Dark Side and that came from Yoda's training, though even that nearly wasn't enough. Luke also learned most of his actual skills while on Dagobah rather than with Ben who only had time to teach Luke the most rudimentary skills before he became one with the Force.
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