Yoda Teetering on the Dark Side Too?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by MASTER_DOODOO, Oct 10, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Moderators: heels1785, Seagoat
  1. MASTER_DOODOO Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2005
    star 4
    Much has been made of Mace Windu using tactics that border on dark side useage, but what about Yoda. There are many instances in the war that show Yoda to be a ruthless impulsive Jedi as well. He lops off the heads of the two clone troopers as he is about to be attacked. Why couldn't he use the force push back that he used with the guards in Sidious' quarters and not kill those two guys? He also throws his lightsaber into a clone's chest. That doesn't seem very jedi-like, either. I think Yoda knows how to walk the grey line that is Dark and Light side, as well.
  2. Matthew78 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2006
    star 2
    Hardly dark sided at all, the two clones were supposed to kill Yoda because he was one of the three resident Jedi Masters on Kaskhk when Order 66 came through (Quinlan Vos and Luminari Unduli being the others that were first) if Yoda had allowed them to live then they would have tried to kill him again later, or report in to base and say "We're wounded Master Yoda hurt us and got away!everyone find the bastard." bad idea it is to let them live.

    And the Jedi that Yoda through his lightsaber at when it went into his chest?he was guarding the Jedi Temple and waiting to kill any Jedi that returned back home there, if he had been allowed to live then he would have brought an entire legion of Clones and Coruscant security to the Temple to kill both Yoda and Obi-Wan, they were killing in self defense, the Clones are told to kill all Jedi and do exactly that, they dont say to themselves "Hey this Jedi has a lot of honor and is actually a nice guy, i cant bring myself to murder him in cold blood." the Clones just do what they are told to do and dont rationalize anything, they just kill and maim everyone, you have to kill them because they are like the Terminator and wont stop ever until you are dead, they are relentless common logic does not apply here.
  3. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    Yoda wasn't teetering. As pointed out, he killed the Clonetroopers in self defense. Perfectly acceptable. He threw his saber at the Clonetrooper because he was preparing to not only take him out, but the one or two behind him. When Yoda used the Force shove on the two Imperial Guards, he only did that because they were against the wall and thus could be knocked out. When we see the fight at the Temple gates, there is a Force shove as several Clonetroopers go flying.

    The Jedi are allowed to kill, so long as they do not do it out revenge. They do not so with a heart filled with anger and hate.
  4. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Yes, much like their Sith-cousins in that the Jedi are doing what must be done. The difference being that the Jedi are doing it for the benefit of the Republic and not for personal satisfaction.
  5. ACE_Albert Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2007
    star 1
    The other repliers are correct. Yoda does not make use of the Dark Side in his actions. Supposedly, at one point long before even TPM, Yoda had 'touched' the Dark Side, hence why he had developed the ability to absorb or reflect Dark Side Force lightning, but Yoda was firmly grounded in the Light Side by TPM.
  6. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Wasn't that changed to be yet another unknown tridactyl species Jedi Master? Wasn't that how the newer Minch was retconned, even though that was Yoda's original first name?[face_thinking]
  7. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    Yeah, Minch was retconned to not be Yoda though that was clearly the author's intent for the story.
  8. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Wasn't the name: Minch Yoda actually in ESB's rough draft?
  9. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    Yeah, he went from just being 'Minch' in the first draft to 'Minch Yoda' in another script to finally just being Yoda.
  10. _Sublime_Skywalker_ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2004
    star 4
    Yoda beheading the two jungle troopers was self defense. They were too close and Yoda probably wouldn't have had the time to knock them out before getting blow up. Also, he knew that there would be too many to defend himself by just using the force to knock unconscious. He knew he'd have to kill most of them because of their dedication to their duty.
  11. Juggernaut86 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2005
    star 2
  12. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    I agree.

    Sadly, Master Mace Windu became one with the Force as a well-intentioned, Dark Jedi. I'm not saying he TURNED-to or OPENLY embraced the darkside, but his actions were driven by an emotional state of being. He was not in the right Jedi frame-of-mind, when he joned the GFFA's choir eternal. Thus I believe that he could never become a Jedi ghost.


    Minch (AKA: Yoda, as I now like to call him) on the other hand, was never in danger of losing his cool.
  13. MASTER_DOODOO Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2005
    star 4
    Mace was as cool a customer as we see in the whole saga. He NEVER is in the wrong frame of mind. I don't like how Mace gets a bad wrap. There's no good explanation for that from the movies. Mace takes Jengo Fett out when necessary and takes Sidious out when necessary. How is that being a "tortured soul" or "not in the right frame of mind"??? Yoda is just like Mace. He kills when he has to, and he meditates when he wants to. Mace should have ghosted. That was a big mistake by Lucas to make a ranking council member as prominent as Yoda, and then not make him ghost at the end of ROTJ. And another thing - Why would Qui-Gon teach Yoda how to ghost before he taught Mace? That doesn't make any sense. Qui-Gon was always at odds with Yoda. Why would he suddenly be buddy-buddy on the communing tip with Yoda?
  14. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    Mace was filled with anger and a bit of hate at Palpatine, for all of his deceptions these last several years. Here was someone that he once trusted and he turned out not to be just an enemy, but the enemy. That is why he was not in the right frame of mind. He did not have the compassion and selflessness at the time of his death. And Mace had not made contact with Qui-gon, which is why he isn't aware of his presence and thus is unable to be helped.

    Yoda had kept it together and unlike Mace, was a bit more flexible. He was more in control of his emotions and when the time came, was ready and willing to make an effort to change.
  15. MASTER_DOODOO Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2005
    star 4
    No. That would be like saying Yoda wasn't in the right frame of mind when he confronted Sidious.
  16. GrandWarlord Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2003
    star 2
    So let's say I keep a gun for self defense (which I really don't..lol)...somebody breaks into my house and aims a gun at me. I grab my gun really quick and shoot him dead......was I in the wrong frame of mind? Don't you have to fight fire with fire? Yoda could have probably done a lot worse damage to beings around him. I really don't see his actions as dark side use. He did what he had to do.....

    Mace did harbor some "ill will" towards palpatine. I remember when Anakin said palpatine suggested that he lead an attack. But Mace quickly says "The council will decide who will lead, not the chancellor.." something along those lines. Then another time he says he dosen't trust him (well actually he says "them" about putting anakin and palpatine together) I've always felt Mace had a big problem with authority, because he really doesn't have to take orders on the council. Along with Yoda he leads the council. Then the look he gives Yoda, when Yoda says "A prophecy misread, could have been"......
  17. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    Yoda was in the right frame of mind. He was not angry, fearful or hateful. He was doing his duty. Mace had too much of an emotional stake in defeating Palpatine and saving the Republic. If one were to go with the novelizations as fact, Mace had an attachment and his skills with Vaapad called for his agression to be used. Mace was goaded by Palpatine into going from arresting Palpatine to killing him. Palpatine played him like a harp from hell, because it was so easy.
  18. MASTER_DOODOO Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2005
    star 4
    This is the worst argument you can make. There is a whole passage of dialogue in the AOTC with Kenobi telling Anakin about his distrust of politicians. Mace having the same feelings lends nothing to him not being in the "right frame of mind". All it does is make him a reasoning individual. A trait we would expect in a jedi.
  19. MASTER_DOODOO Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2005
    star 4
    I forgot the whole scene where we learn the Vaapad form of saber fighting and its connection to the dark side. My bad. Sinister, please make a reasonable argument or don't make one at all. Yoda's technique, from what we see, is no less dark side than Mace's technique. That's stupid to say otherwise. One does not go from the novelizations AS FACT. Just as one does not go from your OPINION or my opinion as fact. We have to go by the movies and what we see. There's no EVIDENCE in the movies to suggest that Mace was teetering on the dark side. Furthermore, if Mace WAS teetering on the dark side, then what was Yoda doing? Mace tried to arrest Palpatine first. Yoda just went straight for the kill.
  20. GrandWarlord Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2003
    star 2
    So then I wonder if Kenobi would have done what Mace did when it came to confronting Palpatine. "I'm going to end this...once and for all."
  21. MASTER_DOODOO Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2005
    star 4
    Why not? That's what jedi do when they confront Sith. Right? Do you think Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were trying to arrest Maul?
  22. GrandWarlord Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 21, 2003
    star 2
    I just think Kenobi would have handled it differently....I don't think he would have marched in there and immediately ignited a lightsaber. I wonder how it would have played out if Anakin and Kenobi went to palpatine together....it may have turned out the same......maybe not who knows.......
  23. Darth_Davi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2005
    star 4
    So Yoda went for the kill, so what? Yoda knew at the time that Palpatine had killed the force sent to arrest him, knew he had converted Skywalker to the Sith, knew he was responsible for the slaughter at the temple, and knew he was responsible for the Clones turning on the Jedi. I fail to see where exactly he needed to attempt to arrest Palpatine...Palpatine killed those sent to arrest him, so he went for the kill, since arrest was not something Palpatine would allow. Palpatine killed the Jedi, from Yoda's perspective, its kill or be killed. Self defense. Where is the Dark Side motivation?

    You challenge Sinister to make reasonable arguments, yet, fail completely to make reasonable arguments of your own. Lucasfilms states that anything in the novelisations that is not contradicted by the films is FACT, is canon. They would know, they are the ones who own TOTAL creative control over the Star Wars universe. Its very convenient of you to not acknowledge canon, because it means you can make any ridiculous statement you want, and you have an "out" to never admit you are wrong. You don't even realize that you just killed your own argument by using what we see in the films as evidence.

    There is no evidence in the movies to suggest Yoda was teetering on the Dark Side either. You want to claim he was, because he went for the kill...I suggest it was self defense, trying to take down a criminal who would not let himself be captured, who already killed people trying to arrest him. If a suspect shoots cops, the cops shoot back. Its a really simple concept. Now, you will of course deny that as a reasonable argument, because you don't agree with it. That is your prerogative, just as it is your prerogative to be wrong. Just because you see something one way doesn't make it so, especially when everything seems to contradict that way. Mace does tap into the Dark Side with his Vaapad technique. That is confirmed by Lucasfilm. You may not accept Lucasfilm as a valid source, but considering they are the company that actually made the Star Wars films, they are the company that actually owns Star Wars as its intellectual property, I tend to trust them more than I trust you. If Lucasfilm says one thing about events within Star Wars, and you say another, chances are VERY good that they are right and you are wrong. In the same way, I would suspect that an NFL referee would be a much better source to explain the rules of NFL Football than you or I would be. I would trust FIFA better than you to explain to me the rules of soccer. Why? Because they would be the ones that are in a better position to know. Lucasfilm is in a better position to know than we are. They don't just know what goes on in Star Wa
  24. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    I agree that Mace was a cool cat, but he was the tortured soul. Though I do find it interesting that Mace was never told by Yoda that he had made contact with Jinn's spectral-self. In fact, I'd even call it a plot hole.
    Indeed. The emotion of being betrayed by the Chancellor of the Republic was too much for him to handle. Once baited, he bum-rushed past the point of no return. Mace made it personal, and that is where he lost. He took the worm offered by Palpatine and swallowed it HookLineAndSinker. :p
  25. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    As I stated, Mace Windu was in an emotional state when he went to confront Palpatine. The toll of the war, the possibility of losing the Republic, the lives lost and Palpatine's betrayal all weighed heavily upon him. This is why he loses his cool and is destroyed. Yoda is older and wiser than Mace. He has no emotional investment here. He is not interested in the fight. Only interested in stopping Palpatine. Yes, Yoda is there to kill Palpatine, but he is not there out of fear and anger and hate. He is there as a Jedi Master, not a vengeance seeker. Yoda is the Grand Master for this reason alone as he is the only one save for Qui-gon, who when he fought a Sith, did not have an emotional stake in the fight. Yoda was not goaded into a fight. He was resigned to it.
Moderators: heels1785, Seagoat
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.