Yoda Teetering on the Dark Side Too?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by MASTER_DOODOO, Oct 10, 2007.

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  1. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    True, Palpatine could've gotten the job done if he saw Mace fighting him. But part of what makes Anakin join him is the fact that Palpatine's life is in danger. That's why in the original version of the duel, Anakin watched them fight but didn't do anything until Mace had won and was going for the kill.
  2. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    Then don't you think that if Lucas had opted for that version, people on these boards would go: "was Mace wrong in bringing Anakin along":p
  3. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
  4. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    Of course, the Jedi failed so they were damned if they did and damned if they didn't in the eyes of many.
  5. RamRed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4

    Yes, I believe that they did fail. And I think that Yoda and Obi-Wan's apprenticeship with Qui-Gon's ghost was the start of dealing with that failure.
  6. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    They did fail, but it's solely due to the Sith out-maneuvering them not the oft invoked immorality.
  7. RamRed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4

    Oh yeah. Let's just play the old "the Jedi were not at fault" game. I think that the Jedi were as responsible for their downfall, as the Sith. Their own flaws gave the Sith - namely Palpatine - the opportunity to set them up. It's interesting how so many fans refuse to give up the old idealized vision of the Jedi from the OT.
  8. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    The Jedi were at fault for being slow to react to and see the threat of the Sith. If the Jedi were as perfect as you seem to think I view them as they'd have never lost, however losing doesn't mean there's a moral failure taking place.
  9. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    The Sith are responsible for much of what happened. The Jedi have their blame, but it is not as great as the Sith's since it was the Sith who instigated everything.
  10. MASTER_DOODOO Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2005
    star 4

    You think the Sith are to blame for the Galaxy turning into an Empire? Come on. [face_hypnotized]
  11. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    That's kinda obvious. The Sith engineered nearly everything, manipulated everyone into do exaclty what they wanted.
  12. Darth_Davi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2005
    star 4
    I am REALLY hoping that you are being facetious here. Otherwise, you must have missed the part about the Sith plotting to take over the galaxy. I know, minor little insignificant plot detail and all, but I suppose you occasionally have to get up and go to the bathroom for 2 hours at a time. However, if it happened during all three prequels, I would recommend seeing a urologist, you might have something seriously wrong, and should probably get it checked out...
  13. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    The Jedi Order's collective ignorance; regarding the return of the Sith ,does not absolve them of their complicity in the Republic becoming an Empire. The Sith COULD NEVER have pulled it off without the Jedi growing fat and lazy. They failed to adapt, and in so doing they opened the door to internal-complacency, outward displays of arrogance and political corruption. The best part is the Jedi were warned... almost two hundred years before Order-66 came down, and they dismissed the warning. Minch included.

    The Sith were good, but not that good.
    They needed help along the way.

    IMO: the Sith get 60% and the Jedi are on the hook for 30%.
    And the last 10% of the blame falls on the Republic itself.

  14. Ominous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2004
    star 4
    I have to agree with SSS, the Jedi were complacent. Times change and if you are not willing to change with them, you will be left behind or ran over.

    The Jedi should have adapted, improvised and overcame, but instead meditated on everything. I wouldn't be surprised if they meditated before going to the bathroom.

    The Sith took advantage of the situation and beat the Jedi. The squabbling of the Republic added fuel to the fire. Palp knew that most politicians were stupid and took advantage of that as well.

    Palp gets elected to represent Naboo. Palp uses his own planet and the TF to gain control of the Senate and it rolls from there. Considering that the Jedi believed that it was not possible for the Sith to return is their first mistake. Anything is possible.
  15. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    By an insane Dark Sider. They should have listened in hindsight, but they had no way of knowing his ramblings were accurate.

    They were too slow to act, but for the most part they made the best decisions they could with the information they had.

    The Jedi as a whole didn't believe it, but Yoda and Qui-Gon both were fully aware that it was possible. Mace and Ki-Adi make their "I do not believe the Sith could have returned without us knowing." statements and Yoda reminds them that the Dark Side was hard to see.
  16. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    What I find somewhat fascinating about the critique on the Jedi is the argument that they didn't evolve. If you think about it, they did - but not in a good way. If the Jedi had stayed true to their teachings, or code, they would have been fine - and Palpsyboy would be pulling his hair.

    Yes, they would still have problems with many things. However, they would not recruit themselves as generals and commanders. They would remain peace keepers. Had they done this, Palpatine wouldn't have been able to execute Order-66 the way he did...

    So in a sense, the Jedis' downfall was that they had evolved, but in a positive way...
  17. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    I can see that argument, but the main problem with it imo is Luke. He fights as part of an army fighting to defend freedom and equality just as the Jedi believed they were yet supposedly they're corrupt(according to Lucas) and Luke's not.
  18. Ominous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2004
    star 4
    They have no choice but to evolve when the Sith hits the fan (pun intended).

    Your mortal enemy for thousands of years comes back, and you don't evolve, change tactics to take them out? Surely the Sith would change tactics on them.

    Do we know who recruited them to command the Clones? Yoda would be my guess...I don't know that much...

    The order was placed by Dooku to create a clone army under the guise of the Jedi's approval, and therefore he had the preprogrammed Order 66 put in their craniums. (This is my SWAG at it)

    Order 66: In the event of Jedi officers acting against the interests of the Republic, and after recieving specific orders verified as coming directly from the Supreme Commander (Chancellor), GAR commanders will remove those officers by lethal force, and command of the GAR will revert to the Supreme Commander (Chancellor) until a new command structure is established.

    Keep to the code? That means that Anakin would have had his sandy butt sent back to BFT as a free man. If only there was not a prophecy![face_thinking]

    Palp was one smart SOB and he knew how to pour on the honey and bend you over three ways til Sunday at the same time. My question is, how did he hide it? If he farted they would have smelled it! Why didn't they sniff his dark presence? Someone has to know on here!
  19. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    Film only answer: "Hard to see the Dark Side is." and the Jedi's ability to use the Force diminishing prior to AotC.

    EU included answer: Palpatine likely knew the 'art of the small.'
  20. Ominous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2004
    star 4
    Thanks. Again why would their ability to sense such evil to be diminished?
  21. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Because they were too busy looking to the future to see the leaks in the pipes over their heads, and the erosion right under their Jedi Boots...

    Indeed, hard to see the darkside is. If in TPM they couldn't believe that the Sith could return, how preposterous would it be for one of them ten-years later to suggest that Palpatine was Sith Lord? And when you take that into consideration, how does it change the way you view Mace's response to Anakin declaring Palpatine to be just that?
  22. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Isn't it? These sorts of dicussions never end -- for just such a reason.
  23. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    Because as Sx3 said they focused too much on the Cosmic Force and looked to the horizon to try to see things coming which was rendered nearly impossible due to the shroud of the Dark Side. Palpatine also was able to cloak his evil by deceiving their eyes with his facade of the kindly old Chancellor and their Force senses by making the presence of his evil so minuscule.

    So basically "Never their minds on where they were, what they were doing! Hmph!"
  24. Ominous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2004
    star 4
    Makes sense now...Couldn't see the forest for the trees, in other words,

    too involved in the details of a problem to look at the situation as a whole.

    "We won't be making that mistake...AGAIN!"

    LOL!!!
  25. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    The Jedi may have been arrogant and blind, but that comes from the Sith sticking to the shadows and not stirring the pot. Everytime in the past the Sith made their moves publically, which resulted in the Jedi becoming aware of them and thus rising to the occasion. By not drawing attention to themselves, the Jedi remain in the dark and thus are incapable of seeing what was going on.

    As to Luke, he was not being controlled by the Sith. By a decaying Republic. That is why it was fine for him to be involved.
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